454 Chevy vs. 500 Caddy

[Lason]

Build a 454 small block

 

I almost went with a dart block'd 434 before I decided on a LS1. I kinda wish I had gone that route but no biggie.

[Pyro]

Yes the bbc will bolt into the same place as a sbc. However you will have other issues like the larger diameter flywheel and starter clearance. The 158 tooth flywheel is not an option for the 454.

 

I have an engine run stand that mounts using the bell housing bolts and engine mount holes and just last month I pulled off a bbc and installed a sbc without changing a thing.

 

It will be much easy to build another sbc. Besides, bbc are heavy pigs! They do much better in heavy cars. I have a 454 in my 1970 1/2 ton truck and the weight of the engine is amazing. The cylinder heads are 80 pounds each!

 

FYI, an OLDS 455 is smaller and lighter than a 454.

[Guest Mike]

Build a 454 small block

 

I almost went with a dart block'd 434 before I decided on a LS1. I kinda wish I had gone that route but no biggie.

 

Well... my WALLET is small...

[Guest Mike]

Yes the bbc will bolt into the same place as a sbc. However you will have other issues like the larger diameter flywheel and starter clearance. The 158 tooth flywheel is not an option for the 454.

 

I have an engine run stand that mounts using the bell housing bolts and engine mount holes and just last month I pulled off a bbc and installed a sbc without changing a thing.

 

It will be much easy to build another sbc. Besides' date=' bbc are heavy pigs! They do much better in heavy cars. I have a 454 in my 1970 1/2 ton truck and the weight of the engine is amazing. The cylinder heads are 80 pounds each!

 

FYI, an OLDS 455 is smaller and lighter than a 454.[/quote']

 

There is so much to learn that I now realize... I just need to listen to you guys for awhile, then make the plunge. As it stands, I'm thinking the best route for me is another bigger cube SBC.

[Michael]

Mark IV BBC and Gen I SBC have the identical 3-bolt mounting pattern, and identical bellhousing flanges. The difficulty, as mentioned above, is the BBC’s larger width (taller deck, larger heads), larger length (larger bore spacing) and larger height. All 1964-1991 Chevy big blocks are externally the same (well, some have 0.400” taller decks); a 366 looks much like a 540 - huge differences in bore and stroke are masked by a common exterior.

 

“Project_BBZ” recently finished a bolt-in of a BBC using JTR-type mounts. Somehow he managed to installed block-hugger headers without having to modify the frame rails or relocating the steering shaft - both very impressive achievements. On my car there are so many front-end chassis mods that sometimes I wonder if it would have been easier to keep the VIN plate and slap it onto a custom chassis built from scratch. The BBC fits nicely, but that does not preclude the possibility that with enough finesse, a “bolt-in” swap would have also fit well. But even as a "bolt-in", the BBC is not recommended for a first swap.

 

The Cadillac 500 is attractive because of its comparatively low weight. It is almost certainly not taller than the Chevy big block, which in turn is NOT 5” taller than the Chevy small block. But watch for oil pan depth and tall intake manifolds.

 

On the other hand, if you build a SBC with more than about 406 cubic inches, you're looking at an aftermarket block. Word is that those blocks are some 50 lbs heavier than OEM. So compared to an aluminum-headed BBC the weight difference becomes quite modest.

[280zwitha383]

“Project_BBZ†recently finished a bolt-in of a BBC using JTR-type mounts. Somehow he managed to installed block-hugger headers without having to modify the frame rails or relocating the steering shaft - both very impressive achievements.

 

He did?! Please point me to the thread if it exists.

[Guest Mike]

Mark IV BBC and Gen I SBC have the identical 3-bolt mounting pattern' date=' and identical bellhousing flanges. The difficulty, as mentioned above, is the BBC’s larger width (taller deck, larger heads), larger length (larger bore spacing) and larger height. All 1964-1991 Chevy big blocks are externally the same (well, some have 0.400†taller decks); a 366 looks much like a 540 - huge differences in bore and stroke are masked by a common exterior.

 

“Project_BBZ†recently finished a bolt-in of a BBC using JTR-type mounts. Somehow he managed to installed block-hugger headers without having to modify the frame rails or relocating the steering shaft - both very impressive achievements. On my car there are so many front-end chassis mods that sometimes I wonder if it would have been easier to keep the VIN plate and slap it onto a custom chassis built from scratch. The BBC fits nicely, but that does not preclude the possibility that with enough finesse, a “bolt-in†swap would have also fit well. But even as a "bolt-in", the BBC is not recommended for a first swap.

 

The Cadillac 500 is attractive because of its comparatively low weight. It is almost certainly not taller than the Chevy big block, which in turn is NOT 5†taller than the Chevy small block. But watch for oil pan depth and tall intake manifolds.

 

On the other hand, if you build a SBC with more than about 406 cubic inches, you're looking at an aftermarket block. Word is that those blocks are some 50 lbs heavier than OEM. So compared to an aluminum-headed BBC the weight difference becomes quite modest.[/quote']

 

Lots of good info. Thanks Michael. This isn't a first swap for me... I'm having someone else do the work:)

 

So... the easiest BB swap is likely a Mk IV BBC?? This is likely to create fewer tech and clearance issues?

[Lason]

Well... my WALLET is small...

 

And your wanting to build a BBC? Seriously I can point you to a place that will sell you a Dart block'd 434 for $3500 new. I think I may have heard about them on here or turbomustangs but great deals for what you get. I have built a couple BBC's and they are cool but deffinetly not cheap to build.

 

You could also do what Im doing and get you a $1500-2000 LS1, throw your tranny and a carb on it and go. Awsome power, saves a lot of weight and of course you get the "COOOOOOOOOL" factor from all your buddies

[Guest Mike]

And your wanting to build a BBC? Seriously I can point you to a place that will sell you a Dart block'd 434 for $3500 new. I think I may have heard about them on here or turbomustangs but great deals for what you get. I have built a couple BBC's and they are cool but deffinetly not cheap to build.

 

You could also do what Im doing and get you a $1500-2000 LS1' date=' throw your tranny and a carb on it and go. Awsome power, saves a lot of weight and of course you get the "COOOOOOOOOL" factor from all your buddies [/quote']

 

Where did you find a complete LS1 for $1500? I've looked for low mile LS1's and they always cost $2500+. I'd put the LS6 heads on mine, eliminate the ECU, switch to carbs, and a little more cam.

[Lason]

Where did you find a complete LS1 for $1500? I've looked for low mile LS1's and they always cost $2500+. I'd put the LS6 heads on mine, eliminate the ECU, switch to carbs, and a little more cam.

 

Got on a local board Im on and found a guy selling a '99 LS1/4L60E with about 60k on it for $2100. Then I sold the tranny for $500 and a couple odds and ends off the motor I didnt need for another $100. I still have the complete EFI setup including computer and mass air meter I could sell but Ill hang onto them in case I decide to go EFI later on.

 

i went to the local swap meet here in Arlington this last weekend and there was a guy there with a wrecked Z28 on a trailor asking $2500 for the whole thing. It MIGHT have been a LT1 but Im almost positive it was a LS1. It was wrecked THAT bad. The deals are out there, you just gotta be patient and find them.

 

Another option is to find a 6.0L longblock. I saw one on another local board here going for $500. Iron block, aluminum heads. It would be PERFECT for a performance build considering you could bore it unlike aluminum LS1 blocks. Awsome heads on the 6.0's too, especially if your considering boost. I really wish I would have snagged it up but Im too busy dumping money on my chassis right now.

[Guest Mike]

Got on a local board Im on and found a guy selling a '99 LS1/4L60E with about 60k on it for $2100. Then I sold the tranny for $500 and a couple odds and ends off the motor I didnt need for another $100. I still have the complete EFI setup including computer and mass air meter I could sell but Ill hang onto them in case I decide to go EFI later on.

 

i went to the local swap meet here in Arlington this last weekend and there was a guy there with a wrecked Z28 on a trailor asking $2500 for the whole thing. It MIGHT have been a LT1 but Im almost positive it was a LS1. It was wrecked THAT bad. The deals are out there' date=' you just gotta be patient and find them.

 

Another option is to find a 6.0L longblock. I saw one on another local board here going for $500. Iron block, aluminum heads. It would be PERFECT for a performance build considering you could bore it unlike aluminum LS1 blocks. Awsome heads on the 6.0's too, especially if your considering boost. I really wish I would have snagged it up but Im too busy dumping money on my chassis right now.[/quote']

 

Hmm... I guess I'm just not persistent enough with my searches. Was that 6L an LTx?

[Lason]

Hmm... I guess I'm just not persistent enough with my searches. Was that 6L an LTx?

 

No, 6.0's are LSX style motors found in new trucks and escalades.

[Guest Mike]

No, 6.0's are LSX style motors found in new trucks and escalades.

 

$500 for a 6L LSx??? Now that's a winner!!! I'll start looking:D

[Lason]

$500 for a 6L LSx??? Now that's a winner!!! I'll start looking:D

 

Yeah like I said, its an iron block but unlike a aluminum block the 6.0l can be bored out so that is a bonus. I dont like thinking about only doing a hone job before throwing $700 pistons in a motor. I like fresh meat on those cylinder walls.

 

BTW, here is the ad in case your interested.

http://dfwls1.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20380

[Guest Mike]

Yeah like I said' date=' its an iron block but unlike a aluminum block the 6.0l can be bored out so that is a bonus. I dont like thinking about only doing a hone job before throwing $700 pistons in a motor. I like fresh meat on those cylinder walls.

 

BTW, here is the ad in case your interested.

http://dfwls1.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20380

 

THANKS!!! I just sent them an email.

[Lason]

Yeah like I said the 6.0 is heavier than a regular LS1 BUT it makes up for it with the ability to bore the hell out of it and run more cubes etc. Also its stronger than a regular LS1 block and will accept any LS1 part (heads, intakes, crank/rods, etc etc). Only downfall is you will have to order a install kit from JCI to install it. But it is a step in the right direction for sure! Good luck with it.

[Pop N Wood]

The truck engines are good choices, BUT keep in mind the accessories are wrong for a Z car. you will need to switch to an F car oil pan and intake for sure. Also the routing of the alternator, water pump and PS pump are different and will most likely need to be redone. Truck engines only come with automatics, so if you want a manual you will still have to source all that stuff too.

 

I can tell you first hand that F body accesories are non-existent in the JY's in my area. Getting all that stuff off ebay or from gm direct can get pricey.

 

Just so you know....

[Lason]

all you need is a alternator bracket and a tensioner from a f-body. Our cars dont have power steering and I doubt your gonna run A/C. Oil pan will be a must Im pretty sure though. Here is a pic of mine so you get an idea Mike.............

 

the air cleaner wont be on there for long, just keeping crap outta my motor. Anyway both orange pieces on the front is all you need.

[Guest Mike]

Yeah like I said the 6.0 is heavier than a regular LS1 BUT it makes up for it with the ability to bore the hell out of it and run more cubes etc. Also its stronger than a regular LS1 block and will accept any LS1 part (heads, intakes, crank/rods, etc etc). Only downfall is you will have to order a install kit from JCI to install it. But it is a step in the right direction for sure! Good luck with it.

 

Very cool:razz:

[Guest Mike]

The truck engines are good choices' date=' BUT keep in mind the accessories are wrong for a Z car. you will need to switch to an F car oil pan and intake for sure. Also the routing of the alternator, water pump and PS pump are different and will most likely need to be redone. Truck engines only come with automatics, so if you want a manual you will still have to source all that stuff too.

 

I can tell you first hand that F body accesories are non-existent in the JY's in my area. Getting all that stuff off ebay or from gm direct can get pricey.

 

Just so you know....[/quote']

 

Hmm... well then, I have some more investigating to do. The more I research this, the more I realize that just aren't any short-cuts.