z-ya Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 You don't need speed bleeders on an S30 to bleed the brakes by yourself: - Open the bleeder on the corner you want to bleed. - Open up the MC so you can see the fluid - Stand with one foot out of the car and the other on the brake pedal (you can then look through the windsheild and see the fluid in the MC) - Use a smooth and consistant action on the pedal. Slow and gradual. - When you let up on the pedal, again, do it smooth and slow. You will see the fluid level lowering in the MC Gravity will prevent any air from getting into the system. Not sure if this works on all brake systems, but I know it works on a 240Z. I typically bleed the brakes this way 3-4 times each time trial event, and have never had a problem with air getting into the system. Speed bleeders can't hurt the bleeding process, but can put a small dent in you wallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 and I know some of you are thinking... they put a "special" thread sealant on teh speed bleeders... Yea... for ONE or possibly TWO bleeding sessions it will seal... realatively well... then it just falls apart..I understand what you're saying, and agree it will eventually happen, but I've got about 8 or 9 "bleeds" on my fronts and haven't had any sign of the problem yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 You don't need speed bleeders on an S30 to bleed the brakes by yourself: - Open the bleeder on the corner you want to bleed. - Open up the MC so you can see the fluid - Stand with one foot out of the car and the other on the brake pedal (you can then look through the windsheild and see the fluid in the MC) - Use a smooth and consistant action on the pedal. Slow and gradual. - When you let up on the pedal, again, do it smooth and slow. You will see the fluid level lowering in the MC Gravity will prevent any air from getting into the system. Not sure if this works on all brake systems, but I know it works on a 240Z. I typically bleed the brakes this way 3-4 times each time trial event, and have never had a problem with air getting into the system. Speed bleeders can't hurt the bleeding process, but can put a small dent in you wallet. I think you forgot one point. You need to put a tube from the bleeder on the caliper to a bleeder bottle, and the end of the tube has to be underneath the fluid level in the bottle. That way when you let up on the pedal it will suck a little fluid back up the tube instead of just sucking air straight into the caliper. I've never had any trouble using this method and you don't have to buy anything except maybe a short length of tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I think you forgot one point. You need to put a tube from the bleeder on the caliper to a bleeder bottle, and the end of the tube has to be underneath the fluid level in the bottle. That way when you let up on the pedal it will suck a little fluid back up the tube instead of just sucking air straight into the caliper. I've never had any trouble using this method and you don't have to buy anything except maybe a short length of tube. Thats how I do it. Still need to keep refilling the master though. But thats a given in either case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I was a little hard on the speed bleeders... some guys really do like to use them.. I am sure that for someone who bleeds his brakes every event the speed bleeders are a good thing to use... They are more problematic on a passenger car because they get used once or twice in a 5 year period... they totally corrode and won't work... The thing is....With the speed bleeders you have to get down near the ground to open the bleeder nipple... then you have to get INTO the car to push the pedal... then you have to get out of the car a few times to refill the MC cup... think about it... you have handled everything from the shop floor to the messy wrenches, to the dribbles on the bottle of brake fluid... and then you have to handle everything in the car to get in and out and push on the pedals, add fluid, etc... Many racers have been surprised when their foot slips off the pedal due to oil or brake fluid from someone's hand or foot... If you use the pressure bleeder systems... you only handle the wrenches... and you never touch the interior or the hood area once it is hooked up... Pressure bleeding is clean... and it keeps your grimey hands and feet and butts out of the car... it is fast because you never have to worry about adding fluid... It is reliable because it forces fluid through the system under pressure... which is exactly what the seals and bleeders were meant to deal with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 OK Jon, you got me. I do use a clear peice of tubing on the bleeder but if you don't care about your garage floor, you don't really need one. I've watched the clear tube when I gradually let up on the brake pedal, and the fluid does not move at all. Again, the path of least resistance (gravity assisted) is to draw fluid from the MC. Use the $ you would spend on speed bleeders for some high quality pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 whats wrong with the classic 2 man method anyway? never fails for me...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Nothing is wrong with the good old 2 man bleeding system. All of this is a side track from the real issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWRex Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I agree.I'd like to get back on topic and hear from others on their brake setups,and their opinions on some of these upgrades being minimial,or substancial.From better pads on a stock setup,to 6 piston Wilwoods,to braided lines,to larger master cylinders,the Z owners personal 'pros & cons' or 'performance rating' on their own brake setups is the information I'm hoping to get out of this thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 Thanks Jon and bwrex for saving the topic. Heres some brake info, if you plan to go 4x4 up front and stay with the rear drum, stick with your 7/8 master cylinder and save your 100+ bucks from the 15/16 master. I just found out. Question for those of you who switched out their drums to rear discs: What are your overall impressions? would you recomend the swap over staying with the drums? Question for those of you who switched to 4x4 vented up front: Are you content with the change? any thoughts of going bigger in the future? Please be specific. Current brake setups, car purpose, or any other important info that we should take into consideration. Thanks in advance, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Here are my experiences with several stages of brake modifications to my 73: Baseline: My stock braking system was in good order, but with unknown pads and shoes. For street driving it was adequate, but I was not impressed with stopping distances. On club track days, I had very noticeable brake fade before the end of a 20 minutes session, enough that I had to significantly change my brake points and had a few agricultural expeditions. Stage 1: I added toyota S12-8 calipers and Axxis metal master pads and SS brake lines all around. I kept the stock MC and solid rotors and made no changes to the rear. For street driving there was no noticeable change in stopping distance, but I noticed it was easier to modulate the brakes to prevent the fronts from locking up in a hard stop from high speed. Considering the low cost of this change, I was very happy with it. On club track days, I found that I was experiencing some fade towards the end of a 20 minute session, but it was small enough that I didn't have to change my braking points very much. The metal masters seemed to do well at elevated temps, but my rotors picked up a blueish color after the sessions. As the rear shoes wore, the brake pedal would go down further for each session and I found myself pumping the brakes before the braking point to be sure I was going to have brakes (which I always did). Pulling up on the parking brake many times in between sessions did not help adjust the shoes, but regular use and driving over the next few hundred miles would eventually get them properly adjusted. A few times I manually adjusted them back at home to speed things up. Stage 2: I installed MSA carbon metalic shoes on the rear. I did not notice any difference in street driving, nor at the track. Stage 3: I changed my fronts to toyota S12-W calipers, vented discs from 84 300ZX (Raybestos PG) with modern motorsports spacers, and Axxis metal master pads from a 92 300ZX (small amount of grinding requried to fit). This was a significant upgrade from the previous set up even for the street. In street driving I have not been able to notice any fade at all, even after several hard stops from 70+ mph. The brake pedal did go down farther, and I was unhappy with it. I did not have a chance to try this setup on the track. Stage 4: I swapped the MC to a 280ZX 15/16" and the brake pedal movement was closer to stock, although there is still a bit more movement than with the original system. Stage 5: I replaced the drums with 240SX calipers, rotors from 84 300ZX (Raybestos PG), Axxis metal master pads, and adjustable proportioning valve. For street use the rear discs are overkill and I would not recommend it (although it sure looks nice to see the discs behind my panasports on all 4 wheels now!). I have the prop valve opened up fully and the fronts still lock first, which is not what I expected. The other night I was alone on the highway as far as I could see and ran it up to 110 and then braked hard down to 40. I did this twice in a row and did not feel any fade, and the pedal was firm and easy to control. I did not brake as hard as I would on the track, but with the stock system as well as phase 1, I would have felt fade even before the second stop was finished. I have not yet had this setup on the track, although we have a day at Pueblo scheduled for this weekend. I'll update this afterwards. A few more thoughts: - I know some people are really critical of the metal master pads because they are hard on the rotors. That doesn't bother me as the rotors I used aren't much more expensive than the pads, and it's not that big of a deal to change rotors. For a pad to be used on the street as well as track at a reasonable price, I've been quite happy with them. They have a long life and low dust as well. I'm not trying to sell anyone on them, just stating my experience with them. - I have used Valvoline synthetic DOT 3/4 brake fluid and have been very happy with it. I bleed before each track event and have not experienced boiling fluid. It is very reasonably priced at ~$7 per quart at my local Autozone. - I used 300ZX pads with the vented rotors up front to get a slightly larger pad. The pad covers the entire available surface of the rotor. It was easy to trim with a cutoff wheel and bench grinder. - The rear pads only cover the outer 3/4 of the available surface of the rotors. I don't think this really matters since it's the rear, but it looks a little strange if I look closely at it. - I have been making steady improvements to my engine (L28) along the way. Through stage 2 I don't think I was that much stronger than stock. I now have a new cam (284 / .480") and my triple webers pretty much dialed in. Haven't been to the dyno yet so don't know the power but it's much stronger than stock. - Before each stage I read everything I could find about the experiences of others, and in some cases my own experience did not match theirs (ex. many claim that the S12-8 calipers on stock rotors will not improve fade resistance; my own experience suggests that for a 15-20 minute session I did get more laps in before the brakes started to fade.) I think you should take my experiences for what they are: 1 set of data points with a bunch of other variables that I couldn't control. (ex. Our track events are above 5k feet altitude so we lose ~20% of our HP.) - We lost our favorite track (2nd Creek Raceway) at the end of 2005, so had limited track events this summer. This next track day at Pueblo will be very interesting because I have changed so much since my last time out, along with the fact that I have not been there before. I hear it is tough on brakes, so am looking forward to putting this setup to the test. Lastly, if you haven't read the sticky on brake options for the S30, go there immediately. I have not found a better source of information for brake upgrades for the early Zs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWRex Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Now that's an excellent post.I also agree that the Sticky on brake options is an invaluable,and a must read reference.The opinions on these configurations from our members on their own Z's is what's going to sway me one way or the other with the decision on my braking system.Keep the posts coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Zmanco... I've been undecided about whether to do the front 4-piston with/without vented rotor upgrade but after reading your post, I've decided to go for the vented rotor option. Nice post!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Thanks Mike, I think that's the better way to go; the only extra expense is the spacers and you get much more thermal capacity. I would have done that myself, but at the time my wheels wouldn't clear the wider calipers for vented rotors. Once I had bigger wheels, I waited until my rotors were worn to undersize (didn't take long ) and then did the vented upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 - Before each stage I read everything I could find about the experiences of others, and in some cases my own experience did not match theirs (ex. many claim that the S12-8 calipers on stock rotors will not improve fade resistance; my own experience suggests that for a 15-20 minute session I did get more laps in before the brakes started to fade.) I think you should take my experiences for what they are: 1 set of data points with a bunch of other variables that I couldn't control. (ex. Our track events are above 5k feet altitude so we lose ~20% of our HP.) I can back this up. I was running the non-vented Toy calipers with 280ZX rear disks having trouble dialing in the bias, no matter what I did I couldn't get enough rear bias for my liking. I ended up throwing the stock front calipers back on, and was able to really dial in the bias well, but that was when I punched a hole through the brake pad at the track. After that I went back to the 4x4 calipers and never really got that setup dialed in perfect before I decided to go with Wilwoods instead. So while I don't think the 4x4 calipers were the be all and end all, they did have larger pads and larger heavier calipers, so they could absorb more heat into them. They also do have a lot more stopping power than the stockers, as evidenced by my not being able to get the bias right even with NO proportioning valve in the system. The key to good braking isn't just clamping power, it's also bias. If you put 12" Wilwoods in the front and stock drums in the back, your braking distances (at least the first few times before fade sets in) will be LONGER with the Wilwoods because the rears will not be contributing at all in that case. Although the car continued to get faster, I never had another repeat of the hole in the pad incident while running the Toy calipers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 I can back this up. I was running the non-vented Toy calipers with 280ZX rear disks having trouble dialing in the bias, no matter what I did I couldn't get enough rear bias for my liking. I ended up throwing the stock front calipers back on, and was able to really dial in the bias well, but that was when I punched a hole through the brake pad at the track. After that I went back to the 4x4 calipers and never really got that setup dialed in perfect before I decided to go with Wilwoods instead. So while I don't think the 4x4 calipers were the be all and end all, they did have larger pads and larger heavier calipers, so they could absorb more heat into them. They also do have a lot more stopping power than the stockers, as evidenced by my not being able to get the bias right even with NO proportioning valve in the system. The key to good braking isn't just clamping power, it's also bias. If you put 12" Wilwoods in the front and stock drums in the back, your braking distances (at least the first few times before fade sets in) will be LONGER with the Wilwoods because the rears will not be contributing at all in that case. Although the car continued to get faster, I never had another repeat of the hole in the pad incident while running the Toy calipers... Jon, do you think if you ran a proportioning valve when you were running the 4x4 + rear discs You would have been able to dial in your appropriate F/R bias? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 No, I ran a prop valve and had it all the way biased towards the rear. Then I went the further step of removing it entirely so that it wasn't cutting ANY pressure to the rear, and I still couldn't get it exactly right. The next thing to do would have been dual master cylinders and put a smaller master on the back to increase the rear pressure. Never got that far though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 I Finally had time to change out my master back to the 7/8, and Wow what a difference it made. The pedal effort was good again, and the car actually felt like it was stopping. after some hard braking, I got out of the car and felt each rim to observe the temp ( I didnt have a temp gun and no i wasnt gonna touch the rotor and drum!) the rears felt just about the same temp as the fronts. So im pretty sure my brakes are working properly now. However, im still not satisfied with the braking capabilities with 4x4 soild powerslot rotor and KVR pads and braided line all around. By the way, anyone know the rotor size of the vented 4x4 compared to the solid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I'm 99% that it is the same or within .25" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I'm fairly sure they are the same diameter also. But the vented rotors require the bigger calipers. If you are doing track days, the vented rotors are worth it. If it is a street Z, the solid rotors are fine. I'm not a big fan of slotted or drilled rotors. High quality OEM style replacement rotors are the way to go. Brembo makes a nice OEM replacement for a decent price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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