N2O w/ Methanol & Lead Additive for Added Fuel Instead of Gasoline

[Guest Mike]

I posted this in "Fuel Delivery" but got no reponse. And yes... I searched:biggrin:

 

I'm adding a 100HP shot of N2O to my SBC 350 via direct port injection and I want to protect my cast pistons (hyper). For the added fuel introduced during spray, I'm thinking of using alcohol (from a dedicated fuel cell) instead of gasoline to further enhance cooling and increase octane. Additionally, I'll add add a strong dose of Kemco's leaded octane booster "Octane Supreme 130" to the alcohol. Here is the octane booster... http://www.kemcooil.com/product_info.php?pId=61 I'm thinking of using a 3:1 alcohol:additive mix and increase volume of spray by 50 percent (these are SWAGs). This should not only enhance cooling but boost "overall" octane by several points.

 

DOES ANYBODY KNOW how much "extra" fuel is typically needed for a 100HP N2O shot in a V8. How much more alky should I inject vs gasoline (percentage difference)?

 

IS THERE ANY REASON I SHOULDN'T TRY THIS??

[Twoeightnine]

Hey Mike.

Im no expert but I will say that Edelbrock NOS systems use fuel augment systems to prevent piston burn. Would not one simply need to rout the fuel delivery lines to a separate tank that had its own pump/regulator?

 

Have you checked out the Edelbrock systems?

[grumpyvette]

first Id point out that alcohol is HYDROSCOPIC it ABSORBS moisture and can and frequently does cause coroasion, its a poor substuitute for a correctly designed system and race gas

next Id point out that 100 hp shot of giggle gas requires the ignition retarded slightly (about 4-6 degrees) and having a nitrious controller is a great asset

and that if your going to use a seperate fuel tank to supply the nitrous spray/fuel ID suggest a mix of race gas with a heavy percentage of TOLUEENE and a small percentage of marvel mystery oil as an upper cylinder lubricant

 

 

the basic plan is RUN SLIGHTY RICH A/F mixture and retard the ignition slightly

 

things to read

 

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

 

http://www.ws6.com/mod-11.htm

 

http://www.ws6.com/mod-13.htm

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=629333&an=0&page=0#Post629333

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=NOS%2D02001NOS&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[Guest Mike]

Yes indeed... a complete dedicated fuel system. I estimate a 2 gallon tank is more than enough for the supplemental fuel supply... should last quite a while. Additionally, a separate safety system (fuel pressure switch) is in order and a separate fuel level guage would be nice.

 

Hey Mike.

Im no expert but I will say that Edelbrock NOS systems use fuel augment systems to prevent piston burn. Would not one simply need to rout the fuel delivery lines to a separate tank that had its own pump/regulator?

 

Have you checked out the Edelbrock systems?

[icewtr]

I have the hyper whatever pistons in my motor i run an nos 125 shot ..i use 100 octane unleaded in a 1 gal fuel cell and an electric pump set at 6 psi.. gives me about 90 hp at the wheels on the dyno... have run over 20 .. 10 lbs bottles thru the motor and so far everything is fine .. going rich on the system is a bad idea .. most nitrous problems are caused due to rich settings and on that ya make the power from the fuel not the n2o it just makes the fuel burn .... buy a system and just follow the instructions on jetting and get to a dyno or some place ya can check the air fuel mixture and keep it in the mid 12.5 on spray .. and as for the ignition retard i still have an over all of 33 i took away about 2 degrees of timing to use the nos ...

[Guest Mike]

Hi Grumpy... thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your input. I'm a novice at this and I trust your years of experience and technical savvy.

 

Yes, there will be a DEDICATED FUEL CELL for the supplemental fuel as well as a SEPARATE FUEL PRESSURE SAFETY SWITCH. The main fuel cell will contain 93 octane pump gas.

 

The only reason I'm considering ALCOHOL is for its COOLING PROPERTIES. Regarding alchohol/water corosion, I can design the system to eliminate any possibility of corosion via ALL SS LINES/FITTINGS and a SMALL PLASTIC FUEL CELL. OCTANE INCREASE comes form the LEADED ADDITIVE. I could use super-high octane race fuel instead but this won't cool as well as the aclohol mix, right?

 

I bought the Crane electronic ignition with dash-mounted timing retard control so I can tweak in more retard if needs be. There will be fuel pressure safety switches on both lines, RPM window switch set to turn off the N2O 50 RPM before the high RPM rev limiter, and a full-throttle switch.

 

Lastly, I'm adding 2 O2 sensors (one in each collector) to set and monitor air/fuel ratios both with and without N2O.

 

first Id point out that alcohol is HYDROSCOPIC it ABSORBS moisture and can and frequently does cause coroasion, its a poor substuitute for a correctly designed system and race gas

next Id point out that 100 hp shot of giggle gas requires the ignition retarded slightly (about 4-6 degrees) and having a nitrious controller is a great asset

and that if your going to use a seperate fuel tank to supply the nitrous spray/fuel ID suggest a mix of race gas with a heavy percentage of TOLUEENE and a small percentage of marvel mystery oil as an upper cylinder lubricant

 

 

the basic plan is RUN SLIGHTY RICH A/F mixture and retard the ignition slightly

 

things to read

 

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

 

http://www.ws6.com/mod-11.htm

 

http://www.ws6.com/mod-13.htm

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=629333&an=0&page=0#Post629333

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=NOS%2D02001NOS&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[Guest Mike]

icewtr... Thanks for sharing your real-world experiences and knowledge. I've heard that we can get by with decent hypereutectic pistons provided we limit the amount of spray to ~100HP, get the fuel ratio correct, and eliminate ping. It sounds like you have yours set up correctly.

[Scottie-GNZ]

first Id point out that alcohol is HYDROSCOPIC it ABSORBS moisture and can and frequently does cause coroasion, its a poor substuitute for a correctly designed system and race gas

Yes, alcohol can absorb moisture and can cause corrosion.......if it is not stored in the proper container, if standard rubber and metal fuel lines are used, if you are using pumps not designed for it like cheap windshield washer pumps etc that dump the alky instead injecting at high pressure, blah, blah, blah. Like nitrous a couple of years ago, alky injection systems have come a long way. Key word system, those that include sealed alky-tolerant containers that prevents corrosion and contamination, teflon-lined braided hose, brass fittings, nozzles that mist not dump and progressive electronic controllers.

 

Was not long ago that people were saying nitrous is dangerous and can blow your engine up. People will eventually realize that alky injection is now an EXCELLENT substitute for big HP street cars and is catching on with the racers. The success that Garrett and I are having are prime examples of how a well designed system can work. At the recent World StreetNationals, this "innocent-looking" Vette, http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006/orlando/cars/gwr_6044.htm, running an SB2 with a rear-mounted single turbo and injecting methanol in lieu of an massive A-W I/C systems most turbo race cars run today. Car went 7.70 .......... on DRs. Think the other racers are not noticing?

[grumpyvette]

running the fuel/air mix slightly rich (at about 12.0-12.5:1) under nitrous drops combustion temps and tends to delay detonation

please don,t think IM saying methanol can,t be made to work well, I ran a 13.7:1 cpr 496 bbc on methanol with CROWER injection for several months, I just felt the problems far out weight the advantages, you need to change oil very frequently, everything methanol touchs it corroads, especially aluminum and the power gains were in the 10% area, the car was FASTER useing the TOLUEENE and NITROUS

 

things to read

 

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel15.html

 

http://www.kemcooil.com/products.php?cId=4

 

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/detonation/detonation.html

 

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/nitrous-tech.htm

 

http://www.diabolicalperformance.com/hotrodoctane.html

 

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/chamber-tech.htm

 

http://www.motorsportsracingfuels.com/OctaneCalculator.html

 

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/methanol-race-fuel-pros-cons-48415.html

[Guest Mike]

Grumpy... even for just the SUPPLEMENTAL fuel, you're AGAINST alcohol and FOR race gas? Please note that I'm less concerned about HP and more concerned about PROTECTING my PISTONS from PING and HEAT.

 

I'm running 93 PUMP GAS in the main tank. Will the occasional alcohol spray with N2O really cause corosion problems in my intake, cylinders, or pistons?

[grumpyvette]

set up and install/tunned correctly methanol mixed with nitrous will work just,fine, but I don,t think theres any net advantage over race gas with tolueene, yes methanol burns slightly cooler, its also harder to vaporize and mix into the air flow in fine droplets, and it takes a good deal more methanol to make the same power and the stuffs so damn coroasive, its not in my opinion a good idea.

the question is NOT can it work, (it will) its will it be worth the hassles and can I get the same or more power with less problems

any advantage you could potentially get from methanol you can exceed and tune easier with race gas/ toulene

 

simply use race gas and toulene mixed, with a dash of marvel mystery oil and increase the nitrous jet, youll have no coroasion problems and no detonation, superior droplet dispersion, and more complete cylinder burns, Ive had no problems with a 250hp nitrious/toulene system in several cars over the last 12 years and its what I use in my vette

 

"Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combines with water"

 

read thru this

 

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

 

look the main reason they don,t use heavy doses of toulene in the gas at some tracks is the same reason you can,t run nitromethane, THEY CHECK for that and its against some race track rules

theres a huge differance between a dedicated, turbo/intercooled race engine running a ton of boost over 8 seconds and one set up for street/strip use,that needs to keep running for years, that won,t have its oil and bearings checked between weekend maintinance

[Scottie-GNZ]

We seem to be talking apples and oranges here. I believe you are talking to the issues of running pure alcohol which I agree with all your points. I am talking about injecting methanol as a supplement when the engine demands more fuel. In my case no meth is injected in my engine unless the boost goes over 6psi and it progressively increases the volume with boost. If I drive my car for a week w/o getting into boost, not a drop of meth ever gets into the engine. When I race I use 12-15ozs a pass with pump gas for 600rwhp. After well over a year of using it, I and not a single turbo Buick car using it has any of the issues you referring to. I just had my engine apart and it looks like it is still brand new with absolutely no signs of any of the "bad" things you are referring to. BTW, in case I did not make it clear enough, that 7-sec Vette I referred to is INJECTING methanol as a supplement in lieu of an I/C.

 

These are the kinds of generic discussions that does a well engineered meth/alky injection system a disservice. OTOH, there are still people who believe that nitrous will blow your engine up and guns shoot people :D

[WHP]

Can someone supply a link for a ~2 gal fuel cell for this application?

Thanks. Will

 

Edit: Found a good selection at Jegs.

[Guest Mike]

WHP... Summit Racing and Jegs both carry lots of fuel cells. I know I've seen 1 and 3 gallon sizes... not sure about 2 gallon though.

 

Can someone supply a link for a ~2 gal fuel cell for this application?

Thanks. Will

[510six]

I agree with Scottie, methanol would make a great supplemental fuel for N20.I use Klotz Uplon as a fuel addtive to conteract the corrosive effects of methanol.http://www.klotzlube.com/storeProdDetails.asp?pi=20

With methanol you shouldn`t need to add any lead additive.Just make sure that all of the system components are methanol compatable.

[Guest Mike]

Assuming I decide to use alcohol as the supplemental fuel for N2O, should I use ethanol or methanol? If I buy a "ready-to-run" N2O kit designed for gasoline engines, how much larger should I go on jet size to assure I spray enough extra fuel? Where can I find jets/nozzels designed for alcohol? OR... does anyone make an "affordable" N2O kit designed for alcohol?

[Guest Mike]

Regarding the fuel additive... I think I'll try the stuff I posted a link to earlier. If my rudimentary math is correct, that additive straight is 200 octane... if that's even possible? Judging by the chart on the company's website... if I spray a 1:1 ratio of the following mix with the fuel from my main cell (the 93 octane stuff), I'll gain about 12 octane points PLUS whatever gains from the alcohol.

 

Alcohol ----------- 96 oz

Octane additive --- 16 oz

Marvel's Myst. Oil - 16 oz

 

If I change to the following mix, my octane increase should be about 15 points PLUS whatever the alchol gives me...

 

Alcohol ----------- 80 oz

Octane additive --- 32 oz

Marvel's Myst. Oil - 16 oz

 

The latter mix nets me 108 octane NOT COUNTING the increase from the alcohol. Again... this is if I spray 1:1 supplemental fuel to main fuel.

 

The REAL advantage, as Scottie points out, is that the expensive fuel is only used while racing. Cheap pump gas does fine for daily driving.

[Guest Mike]

Scottie... I read in one of your posts that alcohol can be bought in quantity for $3.30/gal. Where can I find it for that? Every chemical supply house I've checked sells it for $10+ per gallon even in the 55 gallon drums. You indicated in your other post that you buy from "VP". What company is VP?

[jt1]

This is an interesting discussion. If you're running gas in the main system, and methanol in the N2O system, and using a wideband O2 meter to tune, how do you know what F/A ratio to shoot for?

 

John

[Guest Mike]

John... I didn't know it made a difference. That's something ELSE I don't know.

 

Anyone know the answer to this???