Careless Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Hey everyone, I've stumbled across this metal to metal body filler that is an aluminum body filler, quite like the Rust Bullet paint system is an aluminum paint substance. I recently picked up the Rust Bullet from the local distributor, and chemical engineer here in Ontario. He used to work for POR15 as a consultant for chemical research and coatings, and he then moved to Rust Bullet because of the way better product (or so he says) Less prep time, and a lot less room for error (even though you really can't screw it up if you read the instructions properly. anyways!! back to my topic. I've seen people put body filler, and then Rust Bullet over the body filler. that's a no no... Body filler absorbs moisture from the paint, and the hard outer shell that is already dry will seal that moisture in and cause the body filler to rust or crack due to chemical imbalance. would I have the same problem with this body filler here?? http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5594&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=516&iSubCat=517&iProductID=5594 or would I be able to apply this body filler in, and then paint over it with rust bullet. I'm not sure what kind of a product this is, and anyone who has used it can comment on it, and I will appreciate their time =) It seems like the JB Weld of body repair. I'm sure it's good for things, not sure what those things are though =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 you always come through with your experience, Ernie. I appreciate the reply. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Which would be superior... this or lead solder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Intresting! As far as knowing how to lead solder, I thought there was not much skill involved, or am I wrong? The basic idea is to clean the surface and then melt lead on correct. After the lead is spread one simply sands and files it down. Or did I just over simplify the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Intresting! As far as knowing how to lead solder, I thought there was not much skill involved, or am I wrong? The basic idea is to clean the surface and then melt lead on correct. After the lead is spread one simply sands and files it down. Or did I just over simplify the process? correct, as far as i know. that is the process. HOWEVER. the minerals and all that was present in the old led rods used to do leading has since been removed and most the lead content is not as high as it used to be, for health reasons. today's body solder bars have a higher tin content, if i'm not mistaken, and don't contain some of the other ingredients that would make it more maleable while molten, and more adhesive to metal it goes on. someone i know often recollects days of when he used to work at a body shop, and the older people held lead rods in between their teeth as they were finishing the application of the previous rod, because melting and smoothening always required two quick hands. what do you think came first for those guys? gingevitis or death? lol. I will still be leading though. The new lead just requires more work, but I'm sure its the same procedure, and I'm not afraid to give it a go. Once i take pics of the horrible body work on my car right now from the PO's body-man, you'll understand why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Gingivitis, death? Hardly. Ingestion of lead leads to retardation in children, and insanity in adults... There was a nice TV program one sunny day that had Larry Csonka in a tank cleaning it up (painter)---well, lead based paint, years of exposure, finally built up to a level where mr All Star had become quite agitated. Trick was to "talk him out" of the tank without anybody getting hurt. I digress... Primary problem with leading any Japanese Car from the 70's is thin metal! The stuff on the fenders and unitbody is so thin it tends to WARP like CRAZY when heated with a torch to tin the body and melt the sticks. The car was designed with polyester filler in mind for body repairs. There is nothing wrong with using it. Metal-to-Metal sounds like a nice product to use if you don't want microbaloons in the polyester/epoxy matrix of your filler to absorb water. I would stay away from the fantasy of "Leading" anything on the Z. Most all of the soldered joints on the car were hidden from view, and any that weren't were covered with polyester based filler before topcoating (the cracking "C" Pillar comes to mind). Lead is not a panacea, anything bad that can happen with Bondo, can happen with lead. Period. It's just that it's MUCH more difficult to apply the lead, and 10X so on thin sheetmetal. This would include, for example, the sheetmetal on a 1977 Thunderbird Coupe---body class project that the owner insisted on having lead used because 'it was the right way to do it' and the instructor cursed the whole time applying it saying over and over 'this isn't a g**d**n 58 Caddy, it's a 77POS and this g**d**n sheetmetal is f*****g too g**d**n thin for this leading!' Ahhh, the days when the teacher could have a half smouldering stogie hanging out the side of his mouth (to light the torch, don't you know?) and actually not worry about P.C.B.S.... The one notable exception to leading 70's vehicles is the Air Cooled VW's. They were designed in the 30's, and basically had sheetmetal 2X as thick as needed to do anything it was required to do. My 62 Bus took to lead like nobody's business, but the instructor said that that sheetmetal was about as thin as you want to try to do any big lead repairs upon... Learned a lot in that class. You can do it, but the question is, "is it worth it?" In a sports car, where weight is a factor supposedly... You decide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ManyZs Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I've used the Metal to Metal filler some and I second Ernie's caution about the dust. This dust is almost like trying to wipe off NeverSeize:eek2: . If you use it you'll be running for the shower soon afterwards, I had to wash my hair twice to get it all out of my hair and I only have half the hair I had when I was younger. One other caution to remember, work it out as smooth as possible before it hardens as you can't knock off the high spots easily with a cheese grate file like the run of the mill polyester fillers. This stuff is nearly as hard as a rock when it hardens and will require a lot more sanding than any other filler you're likely to use. So, if you don't have an air file or other air powered sanding equipment, be ready to get a work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 One other caution to remember, work it out as smooth as possible before it hardens as you can't knock off the high spots easily with a cheese grate file like the run of the mill polyester fillers. This stuff is nearly as hard as a rock when it hardens and will require a lot more sanding than any other filler you're likely to use. So, if you don't have an air file or other air powered sanding equipment, be ready to get a work out. Hmmmmmm, just like real lead, except without the panel-warping heat! Ever wonder what "body files" were made for: Filing lead filler. Now you can use files to fill a synthetic metal-based filler. The more things change, the more they stay the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Good point Tony!! Thanks for sharing your story. I did enough of the leadwork when I was working at the shop, and for me, found it ardous and cumbersome. For some people it's their preference for whatever reason it might be and I respect that. I prefer other methods and materials of body fillers and I personally stay away from body soldering. I had leaded a couple of my own Datsuns years ago and thinking about it now - I would never consider doing it to any more! Ernie/RacerX so which products WOULD you use? i mean, Im going to be repairing the rear lower quarters on my car as you know. and they go to the door jamb area that also needs a bit of a touch up, so I'm curious to know why Lead is not the fix of choice. I know that body filler will be used at some point aswell, to smoothen over everything, but for areas that flex, I'd like to use lead sparringly to atleast ad some stiffness under the bondo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Do not think adding body solder to an area that will "flex" will make it last any longer than anything else. It will flex along with the sheetmetal underneath it, and allow any filler above it to flex, crack, and do whatever it will do. On top of that, the lead will most likely separate from the base metal, or at least crack as well unless it is verrrrry thin---and if the lead is that thin, then there is absolutely no reason not to use current technology products. WERE IT UP TO ME.... I would use the metal to metal or standard bondo (er...or my special mix of aerospace epoxy and microballons---far more flexible than a polyester matrix...) and then over that use the current stone-guard chip-resistant coating (you see it on the lower parts of GM Vehicles, kind of like undercoating texture, but painted over shiny) and paint over that. It will be resistant to chippingform stones, and if something DOES chip the paint from stones or road debris, the self-healing stone guard under the pain will seal and keep out water minimizing corrosion. If it flexes, all of it is flexible and there is flex additive to below the beltline paint, so it will not flake off...problem solved! I have BIG flares on the car, and the front wheels throw a LOT of crap onto the rear flares lower sections. I wish I had done that when I painted it in 1986... But now it waits for another paint job, and that is how it will be finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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