bjhines Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am reaching a point that I need to decide on my engine package... Here are a few of my needs... JTR V-8 install kit I have purchased a WC T5 with clutch, flywheel, bellhousing, slave, and driveshaft from a 1988 Camaro... I would also like to eliminate the rear distributor for clearance... and servicability...(I have heavily reinforced the firewall area)... I would like the lightest weight SBC that I can afford... This is going in a road race car... so it needs to be durable for sustained race use... Horsepower is low on the priority list... 350WHP is target... $$$ is tight... I had an engine lined up for this project... It was not exactly what I wanted but it was reliably built and race tested... and it was only going for $2000 with the intake and carby included and highly tuned... it was nearly complete except for the starter and ignition system... This engine is no longer available to me... dammit! ohh well... Some specific questions I have are related to lightening the rotating assembly and alternate displacement(strokers) and their effect on the overall weight of the engine... I can easily add up the reduction in weight by using aluminum heads, intake, flywheel, and waterpump.... but is there a lot more to be reduced in the rotating assembly???? I need a reliable engine for hard use.. This is going in a track days HPDE/TT car.. I can baby it to some degree.. but I do not want to kill it in one or 2 seasons of relatively hard use... any suggestions would be welcome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am in the process of building a similar engine...but with about twice the horsepower that you are looking for. I will post some component weights at the end of the week when I get everything back from my machine shop. I have lightweight/aluminum replacement components where they are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am not against the idea of using an LT1 engine and fuel system... or another EFI system... I did not want to spend the $2000 for the Holley EFI systems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 How about a crate engine with light mods. Indestructable, fast, cheap. And how about the distributor? Too bad you couldn't have snatched the other deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 There are the circle track crate motors... but they are $5300 long blocks... without any ancilliary components... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am not against the idea of using an LT1 engine and fuel system... or another EFI system... I did not want to spend the $2000 for the Holley EFI systems... Based on the requirements I read in your initial post an LT1 sounds like a good fit. It's a reliable engine that is inexpensive, has the rear distributor eliminated, lightweight (aluminum heads on f-body engines), and can easily reach your desired performance goals. LT1's still have good aftermarket support and future upgrades are inexpensive and plentiful as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS1 240Z Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 LT1, LS1 or one of the cast iron block truck motors (little lighter than LT1s, 70 lbs more than LS1/2) LS1s put down 350hp completely stock. so even though you would spend more in the start, you would have you hp goal immediately, and be able to pick up 100 hp with just a cam swap. junkyards want less than a $1000 for a complete 5.3, 6.0s are more, up to around $1500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am not inclined towards used factory-stock engines... $1500 is pretty damn cheap though... almost disposable... It is my understanding that the LSx engines need significant modifications to make reliable track engines out of them... unfortunately those modifications make the LSx engines much more expensive than a GEN1 once they are fully adapted to race use with a T5 tranny behind them... Remember... the T5 is significantly lighter than the T56.. bling factor aside... Custom parts to adapt trannys are rediculous $$$.. in fact a lot of LSx aftermarket parts are freaking $$$... That was my impression anyway... Im gonna spend some time investigating that route again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 How about a puny 357 inch sbc, afr 220 heads, dart block, carillo rods, eagle 4340 crank, JE domed pistons, mild .600 lift roller cam, yada, yada for $5300 ready to run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 ^^^^ That sounds like a pretty nice offer... especially if it includes intake, carby, JTR Z suitable oilpan, small dia. balancer, flywheel, and ignition... That is the price of the circle track crate motors without carby or ignition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 If you want light weight, you need to build an engine with: Aluminum Heads Aluminum Waterpump single plane aluminum intake (about 1/2 the weight of a dual plane) Aluminum radiator I don't think you'll save much going with a lightweight crank, I bought a forged cromoly unit and its only 8 lbs or so lighter than the stock on. My stock flywheel (for an 11" clutch) weighed in at 38lbs, and I found an SFI approved 18lb flywheel on ebay for $80. I also bought a steel scattershield because I value my legs, which added about 20 lbs to whole thing. The stock aluminum bellhousing only weighs a couple pounds, but clutches and flywheels can come through them pretty easily in the case of a failure, so I didn't skimp there. There are a bunch of other threads on this, use the search. You can replace the headlights with plastic ones and save a bunch of weight, also look into a fiberglass hood. Unlimited fiberglass sells a pin-on for only a couple hundred dollars. If it's going to be a trailered race car only, look into dumping the exhaust early rather than running it all the way to the back of the car, good exhaust tubing is heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I've read that every pound removed from rotating or reciprocating mass equals 7-10 pounds removed from fixed mass. In other words, taking 8 pounds off the crank has the same performance boost as shaving 56-100 pounds off the chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 How about a puny 357 inch sbc, afr 220 heads, dart block, carillo rods, eagle 4340 crank, JE domed pistons, mild .600 lift roller cam, yada, yada for $5300 ready to run? Mild .600 lift!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cozy Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Go and get "Building Budget Performance Small Block Chevys" by David Vizard, buy a die grinder, and follow the steps. He shows you how to lighten and balance rods, knife edge crankshafts, pocket port heads, port intakes, nitrous setups, and if you get "How to build Horsepower VOL. 2" and you can find ways to lightweight your carb, and all kinds of interesting stuff... if David Vizard wrote it... it's definately worth reading and trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Mild .600 lift!! Yeah, it's like 250/260 duration at .050 and only .600 lift, so just over a street roller grind, but not by much. Considering LS1's and LS2's on this forum are running .570 lift or so, it's pretty mild IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbk240z Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Only 250/260 duration @ .050??? Pretty stout in my book. Doc, just for kicks, what do you consider to be a wild cam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 About 270 duration at .050 and above and lifts above .650. You can get a street roller grind that's about .600 lift and about 250, they call that "pro-street". The roller in my TT is 240/250 .615/.631 with a 114LSA. Sounds like Hickl's new motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 About 270 duration at .050 and above and lifts above .650. You can get a street roller grind that's about .600 lift and about 250, they call that "pro-street". The roller in my TT is 240/250 .615/.631 with a 114LSA. Sounds like Hickl's new motor. Doc you are the man! I hadn't thought that one can get away with that kind of lift with a roller set up but, I hadnt ever heard of .600 lift as mild. I think that would be "Doc" mild. Im very old school with the flat tappet set with a cam grind at .495 but trying to make up for it in duration. Is it true that duration can be very benificial where more lift can sometime net less gains. Including RPMs? Any how, when I get home today Im going to be "mild" and enjoy some Canadian Whiskey. Normally I would go for a Martini. You rule Doc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fair Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 LT1, LS1 or one of the cast iron block truck motors (little lighter than LT1s, 70 lbs more than LS1/2) LS1s put down 350hp completely stock. so even though you would spend more in the start, you would have you hp goal immediately, and be able to pick up 100 hp with just a cam swap. junkyards want less than a $1000 for a complete 5.3, 6.0s are more, up to around $1500 This is the right plan... the iron block/aluminum headed 4.8L/5.3L truck LS-based engines go for dirt cheap, complete with accessories and EFI. The 6.0L units go for little more. Even the truck EFI is leagues better than TPI or even LT1 EFI... and so much better than a carb... Modern EFI is so adaptable, and easily tuned with the many cheap tuner software/harness options. Getting the truck LS motor lets you upgrade fairly easily to an aluminum LS1/LS2 block later, too... and you get some of the best factory V8 heads ever produced. With some porting the 5.3L truck heads (a hot new trick LS1 head to use for CNC porting) can flow 330 cfm and up on the intake side. Old school SBC heads shiver when you compare the flow and velocity of the LS1 based heads, at all valve lifts. The extreme valve angle of the LS1 head trumps all former SBC offerings. We just got another F-body aluminum LS1 the other day (above) with 40K miles, perfect condition, from a 2000 SS with EVERYthing needed for a swap for $2700. Higher mileage LS1s are cheaper. This even included the MAF, ECM, and complete harness. It does need new belts... LS1 block = 107 pounds Iron SBC block = 165-170 pounds LS1 nylon intake = 15.9 pounds Alum SBC/SBF intakes = 35-40 pounds LS1 heads = 20 pounds each SBF/SBC iron heads = 45-50 pounds each Dressed/complete LS1 = 450 pounds Dressed/complete SBC = 650+ pounds more: http://www.vorshlag.com/weights.php El Es Juan for the win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 That is pretty awesome price wise... But we have a numbers thread for weights... This gets all confused because we are talking about a stock known quantity for the LS1 weight wise... But the SBC is pretty much a custom piece... aftermarket EVERYTHING... who knows.... the World block may be heavier than a factory SBC block... But the rotating mass could be MUCH lighter than the SBC stock... and we are assuming aluminum heads for the SBC.. It is one of my requirements... The other issue is the fact that the LSx swap is for a used factory motor... no modifications for longevity on track.. I am looking at BRAND new SBC engines with many modifications for racing in the $5000-6000 range... My issue is that there are many engines in that price range that are built for drag racing with short runs... I would rather put my money towards lightweight and endurance... in other words.. I dont need a $2500 induction system.. I dont need highly ported heads with all that money tied up in flow.. What I need is an engine that has been thouroughly check and meticulously assembled with all of the oil control and safety modifications and none of the porting and polishing... I am seriously considering buying a fairly expensive race prepped short block and slapping some undesirable/cheap aluminum heads on it with a cheap carby... The only part I will spend some money on is the EDIS-Megajolt ignition system... I can upgrade heads, intake, and carby later... The only bling on that engine will be all the lighweight aluminum components and the EDIS.... This is where I am thinking about the LT engine series... cheap factory aluminum heads... swap some JY cleaned up heads onto a NICE short block... $200 Edlebrock carby... I think I can get 350HP.... and years of service.. with future upgradability.... If anyone can point me in this direction I would love it!!!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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