ebay and hybridZ

[Guest TeamNissan]

Ok right off the bat I'm not trying to offend anyone, not singling anyone out etc...

Just bringing up something I have noticed lately and kind of bothers me.

 

I spend ALOT of time on ebay as it is part of what I do for a living (with a engineering degree too, what a waste lol). When ever I'm not out buying/shipping or busy listing I read hybrid and I browse ebay for interesting datsun/nissan stuff. Lately though I have noticed this really big trend ( I have not been here long so feel free to let me know if its new or not) of people semi-designing/fabing parts, starting a thread to see what everyone thinks, improve based on the responses and then I see it on ebay days later. In that time frame I can only asume there was little to no testing and 3 of the last 4 I have noticed are by nondonating members. I really dont agree with that at all.

 

I LOVE seeing people here designing thier own parts and after testing it using it thier own car in races, comps etc then after proven having other fellow members making production runs. Its fantastic, it helps us all progress even further on our path to z happiness. Mimicing other peoples one off designs, asking opinions to improve, not testing it what so ever (but slapping some cheesy disclaimer about how its offroad only) and selling it on ebay for some insainly high amount of money to me is wrong. See that 75% of the ones I have seen are by non donating member is like the worst part of all.

 

To me, TO ME, it comes off as milking the community. Taking advantage of people willing to spend money for what they believe is a tried and true part then not giving a single thing back is just plain wrong.

 

I just wanted to say that. I dont want to fight, I dont want to cause trouble. If you believe I'm talking about you odds are I'm not so please dont respond turning the thread into a fight, Its the last thing I want. As I said I think its wrong and I wanted to voice my opinion.

[cygnusx1]

I agree, and disagree. It's all about the money. If the price they are willing to charge for the part is reasonable, I am all for it. If they are copying someone elses design and selling it for less, I don't think that is right. I personally think it's immoral. On the other hand, it breeds competition which is good for the consumer and product development. If there are patents involved, then it's illegal.

 

When I ran my own business making custom motorcycle parts, I would ask forums for beta-testers for new products. The testers, in exchange for development information, got fame, and free parts. I always rotated beta-testers, I never used the same people twice.

 

<> http://www.hvmp.com

[Guest TeamNissan]

That is part of what I mean though. Listing things on ebay right after making them? No testing no nothing.....

 

I'm not against people making and selling parts but the way I am seeing it done. That and the fact they are taking from the community and giving nothing back.

[mario_82_ZXT]

On the other hand, it breeds competition which is good for the consumer and product development. If there are patents involved, then it's illegal.

 

I heard that's what killed the "real" short shifters for Zs, and now we just don't have anyone that makes them...

 

I also think it's wrong if they don't test them at all, and still charge what seems like production part prices on a prototype, especially if it ends up failing.

 

Mario

[wheelman]

TeamNissan,

I understand this bugs you and you are just venting but what would you suggest "doing" about it?

Ban the member?

Issue an official HybridZ warning?

Etc..

 

Ebay is like a local flee market except its accessible anywhere you can get an internet connection. Trying to prevent people from selling questionable parts there is impossible, consequently it's up to each person to ensure as much as possible that the item they're buying is legit. In other words Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware).

 

As for people asking for feedback here, using that feedback to "improve" a part and then sell it, why is that wrong? Whoever it is took his time, his materials, his experience and the added resource of the internet (including HybridZ) and manufactured an item for sale. I say good for him, he's an entrepeneur and really owes us nothing, unless of course he offered to pay before asking for feedback. Besides, who amoung us is a certified engineer that actually examined the physical part and then applied his stamp of approval to it? If whoever we're discussing is willing to sell an untested part and accept the liability and responsibility to the customer thats his decision, not ours.

 

Not meaning to start a flame war, but I get real tired of people thinking they need to prevent me from doing something stupid so I'll defend other's right to be stupid as well.

 

Wheelman

[JMortensen]

I gotta go with Wheelman on this one. Caveat emptor is the phrase to keep in mind when you buy on ebay.

 

I've seen one instance and I won't go too into detail where a parts manufacturer pretty much directly took one of our member's ideas and now retails it through his website. It was damn near an exact copy. That kinda bugged me, but if it isn't patented then what can you really expect? If there is a part which is marketable should he not be able to manufacture and market it?

 

The rest of it, generic suspension parts and stuff like that is not a real problem as far as I'm concerned. There's a million different good ways to make suspension parts. Nobody has a lock on that one, and I for one am just glad that there are people out there making parts for our 30+ year old cars.

[Guest TeamNissan]

I really dont disagree with either of you guys. Its not that it is done but HOW its done that bothers me. The free market is a wonderfull thing, when its not abused.

 

I really cant see any viable option to do anything about stoping it nor do I believe it in general should be stopped. I think the right course of action is to urge these users to take the propper steps to ensure the product they are going to market is safe. That and if they are getting thier R&D from this site they should have the ethics to chip in, no?

 

Like I said though you guys are right, I dont have a prob with the fact people want to develope thier own products and sell them. Thats part of what makes this country what it is. Just there is a right way and a wrong way of going about it.

[DavyZ]

I really dont disagree with either of you guys. Its not that it is done but HOW its done that bothers me. The free market is a wonderfull thing, when its not abused.

 

This is for people who respect others. Everything else is for money. It is not, for the most part, illegal to copy and sell unless, as Cygnus mentioned, there are patents involved. I can't really talk about ethics here because I came across a great sauce combo that blows away anything I have tasted before. This guy who operates a Fish place near me introduced it to me. He'll never market it...but I have been thinking about it...and that bothers me a bit.

 

Davy

[MrFancypants]

Patents arent really all that meaningful anymore anyway, since they dont protect you from Taiwanese copies. Enter OBX.

 

All you can do is focus on quality, make some statement about "Built with pride in America" and hope your support and commitment to service outweighs the cheap knockoff. Unfortunately most American aftermarket car parts places have atrocious service so there isnt much driving the consumer to stick with the original.

 

Caveat Emptor, indeed.

 

 

 

- Greg -

[cygnusx1]

Patents can be global. Alot of patents are not global. However, if it was patented in the US, even if it's made on Mars, it can't be marketed in the US (I am almost 100% sure on this). On the other side of the coin, most patents only last 17-20 years max. Once a patent is expired, it's design and marketing is free reign. Don't forget these cars have been around for 30+ years so alot of this stuff, if it was patented, may already be expired.

 

When a patent is violated, especially by a "Taiwanese" company, it is often not even worth the money it would take to file a lawsuit...and that's the loophole.

 

Anyhow. The original post really boils down to ethics. Ethics are slowly disapearing, along with, common sense, driving skills, and beepers...except for here at HybridZ where everyone still takes the high road. No beepers though. Right?

[Trevor]

Good points, TN. Your opinion counts. Here's mine: My feeling is that the s30 Z car market is so small, as a percentage of the car hobbyist market, and any information is appreciated. I don't expect every aftermarket component made in a cottage workshop for my 30-year-old car to be completely FEA'd and racetrack-proven. So many of the new "ideas" and well as "plans" (my words, not marketing verbiage) are posted for the purpose of being free either here at HybridZ or on personal sites, and I'm happy to pay for the time and talent of machinists, welders, fiberglass sculptors, and experimentors who put things together for a price that the market determines.

 

Some "free plans" examples off the top of my head:

R-T rear diff mount

P-P frame rails

A handful of rear disk brake caliper bracket designs

crossmember to mount finned R-200 rear cover

KA24 5-speed adapting

Honda A/C blower and wiper motor swap

 

Any of these could (or did) evolve into a business venture if someone wanted to tool up and manufacture parts for those of us who can't.

 

Therefore, I don't see HybridZ.org being abused as an advertising medium, and no need to police or stop the trend you have noticed.

 

Thankfully, and largely due to HybridZ, I also know that I don't need short shifters, coil overs, aero dams/skirts/wings, neon and stickers.... (insert youth-targeted FAD here)... to make my cars run better.

[Twoeightnine]

Ditto with the above ....

[buZy]

I do product design for a living 16 years now and on about 32 US patents. Been there on both sides of the fence. Been ripped off and directly copied by the overseas copy cats. Been false accused and had to defend my art at major wasted costs. Not easy being an artist. In this short time I have seen alot. Here are a few things I have learned, I am not a lawyer haha.

 

The average US patent is good for about 12 years then it's common public domain.

If you have an idea you have faith in, Protect it.

The last thing anyone ever wants to do is go to a jury trial as you never know what will happen.

Products have a life. They live and die... just as we do.

If someone says they have a great "million dollar" idea keep in mind it's nothing more than a fantacy, untill it's brought to life.

Your fantacy could be patented, but easily disallowed in court. Most of them lack the blood sweat and tears of specfic function and detailed use.

If your serious about an idea, get a smart patent attorney. It makes all the difference!

Don't show your idea protypes to others, keep your mouth shut. Patents could be dissallowed if proof is shown ideas were presented to the public before the patent is applied for.

A smart attorney is as only powerful as the information he or she is provided with by you The Designer.

You can still be ripped off even if you have a patent if you can't afford to defend it. Don't rely on the free attorney if I win deal, few will ever take your case on contingency unless you have Very solid case.

Few ever are.

A lawyer judge or jury will never fully understand your true design intent.

Never trust your lawyer, they are all snakes in the grass.

Nobody is safe.

Ethics. Very true how they are being lost on a daily basis.