lbhsbZ Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 So I got the car all ready to run it down to the shop and leave it there, but decided to take a quick rocket run around the block to make sure everything was OK. I glanced down at the gauges about 1/2 way around the block, and no oil pressure. I idled it home and parked it. I pulled the distributor and ran the pump with my battery drill....there is definately resistance, like the pump is making pressure, but nothing shows up on the gauge...so I took the fitting out of the block in the back and spun the pump again, nothing comes out of the hole. then I pulled the plug above the timing cover that connects to the lifter oil galley and spun the pump again...no oil came out. Whats strange, is that after I spin the pump with my drill, and yank the tool out of the pump, the pump sort of recoils and spins backwards about 10 or 15 times, and makes a noise like a bicycle freewheeling. I've read the stories about the Melling pumps cracking, and I checked to make sure I had the right part number before I installed it....the casting looked pretty beefy to me. Any idea before I start tearing the motor out again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONGO510 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 You wont show any OP with the distributer removed. The dist. seals the oil gallery. Try looking down the Dist hole when spinning the pump with a drill. You should see lots of oil flowing about 5" down the hole. if you see a gusher, then you got plenty of oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 OK, no oil flowing at all looking down the distributor hole while spinning the pump. I should also add that I pulled the oil pressure sender out and fired the motor for a few seconds with no oil coming out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zwitha383 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 after I spin the pump with my drill, and yank the tool out of the pump, the pump sort of recoils and spins backwards about 10 or 15 times, and makes a noise like a bicycle freewheeling ?????? You've run it before with oil pressure didn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 The motor has made 70psi cold and 35 hot at idle up until now... OK, the pan is down (I was able to get it off without removing anything else) and the pump is out. The pump looks fine, no cracks, the gears look good. I tried to blow compressed air into the pressure port on the rear main cap, and nothing happened...no oil dripping out of the bearings, nothing...until I released the blow gun, then I got a faceful of oil. I pulled the rear main cap, and up inside the pressure hole in the block, I saw a freeze plug. I don't have another block here to check and see if its supposed to be there, but I think its not supposed to be there. I knocked it out with a piece of welding rod through the oil pressure sender hole in the back of the block. Does anyone have a block they can check to see if a freeze plug belongs there before I put it all back together? Which begs the question....if its not supposed to be there...where the hell did it come from, and how did the engine make oil pressure up until now? It looks remarkably like one of the cam galley plugs behind the timing chain The only thing I can think of is that maybe I missed it when I cleaned the block, and it was stuck in the hole sideways and just now decided to flip around, but I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zwitha383 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Read post #7. I think that's what you're talking about and I've heard of it before (it needs to be in there). http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/small-block-chevy-oil-pressure-3010.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I saw a freeze plug. I don't have another block here to check and see if its supposed to be there, but I think its not supposed to be there. That's the plug that forces the oil to the oil filter. It needs to be there. Check the oil filter, the pump driveshaft, the dist gear & tang, and the pump pickup. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 OK....I knocked the plug out and blew air through the system....I get oil coming out around all the bearings. But, before I checked that, I removed the line going from my adapter to the remote filters, and with the plug still in place, had no flow through that line (with 150psi air pressure). With the plug removed, I had excellent flow through the line (thats what reminded me to hook it back up....dad came out and said "whats all that air coming out of this hose for?"). This tells me that the plug I'm referring to isn't the same one as the other thread refers to. I had ZERO flow anywhere with the plug in place, and good flow everywhere with the plug gone. After I hooked it back up, the oil came through the bearings. I put the pump back up, put the pan back on, primed it (with a homemade primer on a makita drill, the gauge registered 40psi....I also noticed that there was much more resistance when priming it this time...it almost stalled my drill). Fired it up and the gauge went to 80 psi, under throttle it went to 90, and after the oil temp was at 180, pressure dropped to 60 at idle and around 85 at high RPM. Now I've got a motor that makes good oil pressure and I'm covered in silicone. I would like once, just once, to put a motor together and not have yank the pan off within 20 miles. The plug in question clearly wasn't supposed to be there. It came out remarkably easy. The pump spinning backward when I removed the primer was caused by the excessive pressure built up between the pump and the plug, and when I released the primer, the pressure released itself back through the pump, spinning it backwards. It all makes sense in my little brain, but if anyone sees anything wrong at this point...please lemme know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 That's the plug that forces the oil to the oil filter. It needs to be there. Check the oil filter, the pump driveshaft, the dist gear & tang, and the pump pickup. John OK, your post made me second guess myself. I went down to my storage and yanked the rear cap off of another core and sure enough...there's the plug. I don't get it. How come no air at all went through the system with the plug in place? Dist tang, pump, and driveshaft are good. Oil filters were removed from the system when I did the air test, just an open line remained. So I guess I'm taking the pan off again, and probably yanking the motor out to find what the hell is blocking what passage and where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zwitha383 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 The pump spinning backward when I removed the primer was caused by the excessive pressure built up between the pump and the plug, and when I released the primer, the pressure released itself back through the pump, spinning it backwards. It all makes sense in my little brain, but if anyone sees anything wrong at this point...please lemme know. I was thinking it before you said it. Makes perfect sense. Glad you fixed your freeze plug??? edit: oh well nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 FIGURED IT OUT!!!....The problem was caused by a poor assumption on my part. I just replaced the remote filter housing with a new one, made by PermaCool, just like the old one with damaged threads in it. I ASS-U-ME-d that since they were both made by the same manufacturer, they were the same...when in fact, they are both different. The inlets and outlets are in the opposite locations on the new one (which I installed Friday night). I didn't think twice about the plumbing...just transfered the lines over. I haven't started the car since then. Anyway, Either the filters or the housing have check-valves in them, and the way the new housing was plumbed, I was getting no flow through the filters, and consequently no oil pressure. As luck would have it, that 1 lap around the block wiped out the bearings and there are some very fine scratches in the crank. The motor is coming out tomorrow night, and I'll get the crank reground and try it again. I hope someone out there is learning from all my troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 FIGURED IT OUT!!!...that 1 lap around the block wiped out the bearings and the crank. The motor is coming out tomorrow night, and I'll get the crank reground and try it again...I hope someone out there is learning from all my troubles. THAT SUCKS. I'm sure not laughing about it. At least you're not throwing in the towel and having a quick fire sale. It gets frustrating, but keep at it and you'll have what you want, plus a ton of experience behind you. I'm sure you'll nail it this time around. Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 THAT SUCKS. . At least you're not throwing in the towel and having a quick fire sale. Davy only because I don't have enough money left to cover the ebay listing fees.... Got enough for a couple six packs tonight though....speaking of which, I'm empty...gotta go get another one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Well crap. I really hate you hurt the bearings, but at least you didn't try a big burnout and scatter it all over the road. Try and look at the bright side. Remote oil filter/cooler/plumbing can be a problem. I've had a few, uh, learning experiences myself. One laying in the mud for hours trying to figure out if oil in the filter flows inside/out or outside/in. I'm glad you found the problem, and that damage was relatively minor. Check the cam (and everything else) carefully, running without oil probably didn't help it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v80z Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I had a similar issue. Wrong pickup/wrong pan. Anyway had to take it apart after my first quick trip. My mains were wiped so after cleaning and blowing I replace them and the rod bearings. Surprisingly the cam bearings were fine. Had the cam checked at the machine shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 Well, I'm yanking the motor and getting the crank machined, new bottom end and cam bearings at the very least.....I'm hoping my roller lifters and cam are OK, but I've got to inspect them too. I feel really stupid for this, but it happened, so I've got to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 screwing up the in vs the out on an oil cooler or similar adapter or reversing the flow, or useing the wrong oil filter are unfortunately fairly comon screw-ups the vast majority of problems I see are directly or indirectly the result of guys getting CHEAP and cutting corners on parts sellection to save a few buck$ or not bothering to verify each and every detail durring engine assembly. things like that reversed flow adapter screw-up are comon and WE ALL lear the hard way about how easily they occure when you don,t make a check list and VERIFY each step rather than ASSUME its done correctly, Ive seen many a cam lobe wiped when it was assumed that the coil bind height or rocker slot to rocker stud, or piston to valve clearances were correct with out checking them and several engines destroyed when oil pump pickup placement from the oil [pan floor was not verified correct at 3/8"-1/2",or the pickup not brazed correctly ETC. you can never assume that just because the old and new parts LOOK similar that they work in an identical fashion with the same clearances, specs, etc. I know one guy who spent $12,000 on a performance engine rebuild, dumped 7 quarts of oil into the valve cover , checked the oil level was correct and jumped in the car to break in the cam durring a short drive, he went for a spirited test drive, that lasted about 180 yards, before it seized up, seems you actually NEED to install an OIL FILTER and spin it on so it touches the adapter firmly and seals,or all the oil drains out........ he told me later he thought there was alot of oil smoke but he thought it would burn off quickly................yeah your not alone, everyone screws up,(NO! THAT WAS NOT ME!....THANK YOU LORD!!!) but a close friend, Ive had my own list of screw-ups and I learned the hard way on more than one occasion to never trust machine shops or assume things are correct without verification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 BTW HERES AN OLD POST ON THE SAME SUBJECT "just some info, see these, at least in theory a twin remote mount oil filter with an oil cooler can increase the oil capacity , maintain the oil temp at lower levels, and reduce the resistance to flow the oil system sees by doubling the filter surface area, with the added benefit that the filters can be mounted in a more accessable location. well a fairly comon way to kill an engine is to INCORRECTLY install one of these remote filter adapter kits, look at the top picture and keep in mind that those two connecting hoses COULD be flipped as to what end(in/out ) on the remote filters gets hooked to the bypass adapter (IN/OUT) ports, hook it up correctly and everything works just fine! but swap the two hoses on only one end and YOUR OIL PUMP tries to push OIL PAST the ANTI-DRAINBACK VALVES on the oil filters,(and most of the time is marginally successfull in that a trickle of oil does get to the bearings and rocker arms at idle) now at idle youll still get good oil pressure (about 15 lbs) but rev the engine and the highly restricted oil flow pressure goes up very slowly but the oil VOLUUM getting into the block is so low youll spin a bearing in about the first 20 minutes ( and 99% of the time the guy that does this blames the guy who built his engine for putting it togeather WRONG when in fact the engine could have been PERFECT but with no oil reaching the bearings under load the engine is history within at best about an hours running time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 Thanks Grumpy. I had my machinist buddy come by the house tonight to get his opinion on the crank condition, and had him bring me a set of bearings just incase. In my opinion, the crank was not perfect, but not too bad. I've assembled engines with used cranks in the same or slightly worse condition and had no problems. He took one look at the crank underneith the few rod and main caps that I pulled, and told me to put bearings in it and quit worrying. The scratches in the crank were visual only, but I still didn't like them being there. I couldn't feel them with my fingernail....which I guess is the official go/no-go test. We argued about it for a bit, and he convinced me that I'd have no problems whatsoever using the crank as it was, so I followed the advice I was given and installed new rod and main bearings from the bottom. I just finished the job, and got all the oil lines hooked up properly (I triple checked this time). I'll throw the pan on tomorrow after work and take it for a spin. Here's a trick if any of you have to do this job. Sometimes the main bearing shells are a bitch to get out of the block....get a 16 penny nail, cut it about 1/2 inch underneith the head, and stick it in the oil hole in the crank so just the head is sticking out on the surface of the crank. Then turn the crank in the appropriate direction...the nail head will catch the bearing and spin it right out of the block. You can use the same trick for installation of the new shell, but get it started by hand first and be careful not to damage the bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 Back up and running...75 psi on the gauge at idle cold. One of the neighbors yelled at me for firing it at midnight, and I'm dirty, tired, and have oil in my eye.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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