3.1 cost

[speeder]

I'm not a big fan of turbo lag.

 

I'm a big fan of the boost hit!

[RIP260Z]

Olderthanme,

I agree with what you say, but I thought the orginal opener to this thread made no mention to being turboed.....

[DHale_510]

> That was it. The rest I did myself.

>You might not get all 10/10ths of the potential power out of the head, but you can easily get 8/10ths

>It is also necessary to keep in mind that Dennis is talking bhp when he says 350 hp, and most people will put hp in terms of whp around here.

 

Yes. 348 to be exact on the engine dyno.

 

>Maybe not the whole 350 that Dennis got, but I spent about $2500 total and got roughly 88.7% of the power per liter that he did.

 

Let me 'splain what drove me to this place. Kipperman's LSViper toy. He whupped my ITS legal car at 4 hillclimbs to 1. Not good odds...

I was set to build a Chebbie toy out of my "spare" ITS car, priced everything out to a 350+ hp level, then decided a Big 6 may do the same, cost less, and be more special. "Stock" even. Like I said, I pretended that I had most of the good stuff already, and did for a 250+ hp combination... I think that I have gotten one of those objectives.....

 

>Just out of curiosity Dennis, how much power do you think Larry Butler's L18 is making? I know it's not making what Pinky makes, but he ported his own head and built his own bottom end too, and it's not slow.

 

Pinkie's 1800 makes 210hp. Larry's likely makes 175hp. It is painful when he beats me. Bowles was running about 150hp in his homebuilt 1600. Top line Rebello 1600s make 175 to 200hp.

 

>I think Cary built his motor too. DIY doesn't necessarily mean crap.

 

Not at all. Never said meant any such implication. Truth is, Pinkie was my first ever probuilt motor. Before that I did all homebuilt stuff. Owned a Bug shop for a while, maybe since I charged for those motors they were kind of probuilt..... Anyway, I totally respect and understand the budget approach. Been there a lot more than you imagine. It's just that a guy's gotta have an unfair advantage over you younguns somehow.....

 

>On the other hand, we had a member zredbaron, who built a stroker and put down 157whp: My impression of his problem is that his 40mm carbs are holding that motor back, maybe his flowmaster muffler too,

 

I started with Weber 42s and similarly ineffective parts. The "upgrade" ended up with the TWM etc. stuff.

Interesting thing about mufflers. Some years ago we did a muffler/dyno test at Rebello's with 1600cc ITC motors for our 510s. Tested at least 6 mufflers. Found the most expensive Borla was the best. It's on Pinkie. Second best was the cheap Walker Turbo used by many shops as a standard replacement part. Last was the fancy Flowmaster, last until we put a long tailpipe to it, then it matched the Borla. That one ended up on my 510 wagon with a tailpipe. I suppose those tri5 Chevies all have tailpipes, huh?

 

>His example does prove that you can have a VERY nice head and crankfire ignition and and still not make power if the induction is not optimal.

 

Yes. And the dyno sessions are not nearly as expensive as fooling around changing parts sometimes.

 

>There is no magic bullet, other than sending an engine to Rebello or Sunbelt with a blank check and asking them to make it the most powerful engine on the block. Dennis can do that but most of us can't.

 

Well, that's not exactly what I thought I was doing, but I suppose that' what it all became.

In the end though, a new crate LS2 is over $20K with harnessing et. al. I am still way under those numbers. The extra 50 hp would moastly be used to spin the tires, or so I rationalize......

 

>That doesn't mean that we have to suffer with no hp though.

 

I bet you cannot really hook up more than 300hp in a Z chassis. Maybe 250hp and still call it a street car. The rest of it is simple excess, mostly good for bench racing. Or chasing Kippermann up impossibly steep hills.

 

>You just have to be creative and willing to put some man hours and elbow grease into it.

 

Absolutely.

My original idea in posting here was to give an alternate perspective to the normal one seen. That is, a stroker motor can easily snowball far from your estimates, and far from what comes across as "normal" on the free advice column found herein. I suppose it all went far afield from that.

Now can I get my stocker to catch that funnycar someday?

[JMortensen]

I bet you cannot really hook up more than 300hp in a Z chassis. Maybe 250hp and still call it a street car. The rest of it is simple excess, mostly good for bench racing. Or chasing Kippermann up impossibly steep hills.

Huge hp numbers maybe won't give a significant advantage at autox, but have you seen this thread?

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=121278

HP numbers aren't quoted, but it appears to be in technical terms "friggin insane amounts of hp", and it looks like it can be made to work on the big track fairly well to me...

 

I think I kinda came off like I had my panties in a bunch, and that's not really the case. I just think that there are a lot of people who believe the myth that you can't build a fast car without huge piles of cash. While its true that taking a car to a good speed shop and throwing a mountain of cash at them is one good way to do it, the other clearly involves years of researching on the internet and foregoing racing, and instead spending every day off or long weekend in the garage trying to figure out how to make it faster, welder in one hand, cutoff wheel in the other. Then again, maybe I should wait and see how fast my car is when its done before espousing my own methodology...

[ezzzzzzz]

I have read many of these posts stating that huge money is needed to build a stroker. If you're looking to build some outrageous power then yes that would be true. The car would likely be miserable to drive on the street too. I came from the late 60's/early 70's world and created some bada$$ small blocks but as a daily driver they really sucked. It is the challange to build a potent L6 that outweighs a V8 conversion. Dollar for dollar the V8 is a better and more reliable deal. I have a stroker in mind with most of the parts sitting in limbo in the garage. These included the LD28 block and crank, Euro damper, L20B rods, L20B timing cover, adjustable timing chain kit, P90A mechanical head, misc. ancillaries (thermostat housing, etc.) and a SDS system. Total investment in all of these pieces is about $1800.00. The SDS was $1100 of that so only $700 is in the mechanical parts so far. Pistons will run about $700 which is crazy but an evil neccessity. With additional parts and machine work I'm looking at about a $2500 to $3000 investment in the actual engine. I'll be doing the actual assembly. I'm looking to acheive about 250+ hp. That will make for a spirited car and still maintain reliability and streetability. The sole reason for this is being able to open the hood and point to a L6 engine. Beyond that the chevy V6 or V8 conversion would make far more sense. The 4.3 Vortec (220hp) and LS1 (350hp) sitting in the garage are looking more sensible all the time.

[cygnusx1]

Picking motors is like picking girls. To each their own. If you're lucky you can have one of each. If not, identify, your goals, your likes and dislikes about the ones you know, your cost objectives, and go get one. This is bordering on a "Best" thread already.

[ktm]

Ezzzzz, you did not mention carbs......in order to achieve your goals you are looking at triples. Best to add another $500 minimum to your budget.

[ezzzzzzz]

Ezzzzz, you did not mention carbs......in order to achieve your goals you are looking at triples. Best to add another $500 minimum to your budget.

 

That's assuming your running carbs. If so, I have a set of tripple Dellortos on the shelf too. There's also a Clifford Research 4-bbl intake. I actually plan to FI this engine using LD28 manifold with injector bungs. There's also the possibility of supercharging with an new generic Eaton M62 (also on the shelf). Adding $500 is not an unreasonable possibility. Let's point out that we're talking about items that might come into play regardless whether it's a stock L24, L26, L28 or stroker motor. My observation is merely the cost of building the long block stroked L6 and costs involved.

[Zmanco]

I think $500 is on the low side for induction, whether carbs or FI. A decent used set of triples (webers or mikunis) seem to go for around $750 give or take a few hundred dollars, and more than likely you'll need to rejet for your engine which will be yet more $$$. Figure at least $1,000 before you're finished.

 

Having just converted from carbs to megasquirt FI, I can tell you from first hand experience that you're also looking at around $1k. And that's with the stock intake manifold. There's another thread on this, but if I was going to spend the money to build a stroker, I wouldn't want to use the stock FI manifold as it will restrict your power on the top end.

[JMortensen]

I think $500 is on the low side for induction, whether carbs or FI. A decent used set of triples (webers or mikunis) seem to go for around $750 give or take a few hundred dollars, and more than likely you'll need to rejet for your engine which will be yet more $$$. Figure at least $1,000 before you're finished.

 

Having just converted from carbs to megasquirt FI, I can tell you from first hand experience that you're also looking at around $1k. And that's with the stock intake manifold. There's another thread on this, but if I was going to spend the money to build a stroker, I wouldn't want to use the stock FI manifold as it will restrict your power on the top end.

I'll second this. Also if you're looking for really high hp numbers skip the 40mm carbs and go straight to the 44's or 45's. That will generally bump the purchase price of the carbs up a bit too. Stock FI manifold is not a good option for max power, so you end up with a triple manifold and ITB's. There are the one offs like John Coffey's manifold or Ron Tyler's. If Ron starts mass producing his that would a GREAT option...

[ezzzzzzz]

I choose not to address the $500 figure as it obivously too low. I was looking at the LD manifold (larger runner diameter) as an option. It would make less difference if it were supercharged too. The stock L28 manifold just won't flow enough to be viable on anything but a mild build. I'm not looking to build a huge fire breathing high rpm torque monster. It's only an exercise to build a bit more torque and horsepower and keep it a comfortable daily driver to boot. There is no set criteria for building any engine. You can go modest or over-the-top no budget limit crazy. Many times I think folks get grandeur ideas in their head without giving every consideration forethought. If you dive in without a defined end in mind then the money will surely leave your pocket like BB's pouring down a rain spout.

[ktm]

I was simply quoting a cost I have seen for a couple of sets of triples that required rebuilding. I have also seen new Mikuni's sell for $2000. I was simply pointing out that ezzzzzz did not mention induction and thus his budget may be a bit low.

 

I know when I was contemplating stroker versus turbo, my stroker build was rapidly approaching $4500+ while the turbo build (based on a horsepower to horsepower comparison) was around $2000. I don't think that stroker and 'cheap' can be used in the same sentence, unless you put the word NOT before cheap. Cheap is relative though. I am nearly $6500 into my turbo build now. I would say that $4500 is cheap.

[HizAndHerz]

... I have a stroker in mind with most of the parts sitting in limbo in the garage... I'm looking to acheive about 250+ hp. That will make for a spirited car and still maintain reliability and streetability. The sole reason for this is being able to open the hood and point to a L6 engine.

Mark, you and I are in definately in the same boat with the same goals and pretty much the same parts built up.

 

The stock L28 manifold just won't flow enough to be viable on anything but a mild build. I'm not looking to build a huge fire breathing high rpm torque monster. It's only an exercise to build a bit more torque and horsepower and keep it a comfortable daily driver to boot.

I'm starting with a ported stock intake with 60mm TB and some jy headers. Once the motor is running with MS-II and EDIS, then it will be time to look at a custom intake and exhaust. With three Z's to maintain, I have to take things in stages.

 

All this talk motivated me to get off my rear and make an appointment with the machine shop. Hopefully next week I'll have my block bored out.

 

I don't think that stroker and 'cheap' can be used in the same sentence, unless you put the word NOT before cheap.

By being patient and shopping smart, here's what I've invested so far:

• F54 Block with burned up crank -free with parts car
  
• Rebuilt P90 head - free with parts car
  
• Used V07 crank and 9mm 240 rods - $150
  
• New cast KA24 flattop pistons - $85
  
• New turbo oil pump - $65
  
• New water pump - $35
  
• MS-II Kit w/LC-1 WBO2 - $500
  
• EDIS setup from junkyard - $35
  
• Nisson gasket and seals set - $45
  
• New Nismo cam gear - $60
  
• Rebuilt damper - $110
  
• Timing set - $40
  
• Used JSK fuel rail - $60
  
• Intake manifold from '75 280z - $15
  
• 60mm throttle body - $15

I still need bearings ($110).

Machine shop estimate is around $500.

Even with $400 reserved for incidentals, that's around $2500.

 

So, that's a pretty cheap stroker build!

 

Considering the purpose of the engine, I think this is a pretty good balance.

[ktm]

By being patient and shopping smart, here's what I've invested so far:

• F54 Block with burned up crank -free with parts car
  
• Rebuilt P90 head - free with parts car
  
• Used V07 crank and 9mm 240 rods - $150
  
• New cast KA24 flattop pistons - $85
  
• New turbo oil pump - $65
  
• New water pump - $35
  
• MS-II Kit w/LC-1 WBO2 - $500
  
• EDIS setup from junkyard - $35
  
• Nisson gasket and seals set - $45
  
• New Nismo cam gear - $60
  
• Rebuilt damper - $110
  
• Timing set - $40
  
• Used JSK fuel rail - $60
  
• Intake manifold from '75 280z - $15
  
• 60mm throttle body - $15

I still need bearings ($110).

Machine shop estimate is around $500.

Even with $400 reserved for incidentals, that's around $2500.

 

So, that's a pretty cheap stroker build!

 

Considering the purpose of the engine, I think this is a pretty good balance.

 

Yes, $2500 is a good deal so far. However, I was looking at $300 to $500 to source the block and head and $300 for the crank alone (you got a deal at $150 for the crank and rods). What you, and ezzzzz have not mentioned, is head work. My $4500 includes a $2000 quote from Rebello to do the head. Sure, you could do it yourself and save some money which is the point people are making I guess. I would hate to spend $2500 to $3000 on an engine and not achieve its potential.

[Careless]

well. i'm building an RB30DE in N/A trim that I'm using an Rb26 head to make.

 

It's going to the machinist on Monday.

 

I'll let you know what's involved.

 

but so far it's 800 for my RB30 block. 2100 for a blown RB26 that I'm pulling all that I need from (sensors, itb's head, cams, ignition parts, etc. etc.). It also comes with a pair of HKS cams and cam gears on the side (so 4 cams total).

 

and 900 for Spool RB30 rods. probably another 1200 for pistons. 300 for bearings. 1500 for machining.

 

and then i need a transmission and engine management and water/oil pump and some other misc bits... another 1000

 

 

 

RB30 building is not cheap. But I'm sure it will be fun.

 

I actually might sell the 4 cams and get 2 really long and high cams to make some real power.

 

in reality, for an RB30DE (without a turbo setup) of this magnitude, you're looking at 8 to 10k Canadian.

 

In regards to turbo, my engine here could handle well over 650 - 700 hp. But then the oil pump and all that start to become a problem. as well as fuel delivery, and ignition strength.

 

anything over 600 is where it really starts to add up, and we haven't even talked about clutch or flywheel assemblies, and the 1000 dollar oil pumps required to feed the engine.

[HizAndHerz]

What you, and ezzzzz have not mentioned, is head work. My $4500 includes a $2000 quote from Rebello to do the head. Sure, you could do it yourself and save some money which is the point people are making I guess.

The head I have was rebuilt by a local reputable shop before the previous owner blew the engine. I did a home port job on it and sent the cam out for a mild regrind (.450-280-280 but I've got other more aggressive camshafts to swap in later).

 

Will my head perform anything like your Rebello head? Not a chance! But then my stroker will only be used for Z-club group rides and track days and maybe the occasional "quick trip" to the corner store for bread and milk

[randy 77zt]

to bad rb30/rb25 setup wasnt so hard to get here in usa-the old l28 2 valve head is what slows l28 based motors dowm.

[garvice]

beven and bogan? like, rhyming with seven and logan right? crazy.

 

HA! Yeah you got it right Daeron

[texasz]

Another option is to just have a reputable engine shop build the whole thing. I have had quotes from Rebello for a 3.1L coming in around $5k. That's not bad for an entire long block in my book!!

 

HizAndHerz, where in TX are ya?

[ezzzzzzz]

Headwork is relative to the desired results. Rebello does incredible work from all I've read and seen in here. Remember my end goal of 250+hp. Relatively mild head work will get me to my goal along with the displacement. If raw power were my objective then I'd just drop in that LS1 already destined for my old Land Rover and put the extra mobey into heads, cam, ECM tuning, etc. Like I said earlier, I want a streetable vehicle that can be driven daily in comfort. I've had my share of 500hp vehicles that work you hard to drive them on the street and those days are past me.