naviathan Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Ok, I'm just thrilled it's running right now. It's very rough though. I tried taking it for a drive and it was very jerky and sitting at idle it keeps flashing accel enrichment. I think I need to readjust my valves though. They make a lot of noise. At first I thought it was the new cam, but this is a bit much and would explain why my map readings are bouncing at idle. My TPS keeps creeping so I changed my accel from TPS to MAP Dot. Seemed to help the throttle response, but it's still not right. I'm adding a datalog from my last drive (if you want to call it a drive). Let me know what you guys think. I'll get a video of it running so you can make a decision on the valve clatter. datalog200708051658.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 If you are seeing a jumping TPS, then it may be picking up some flyback form the igniton wires triggering the accel circuit. My TPS is run using shielded wire. You may have a loose connection giving an intermittent connection doing similar symptoms. Now I'll look at the datalog and see if I made a fool of myself... I can see a correlation of a 1% change of Throttle Position Affecting a 5% accel or decel enrichment situation. It may be that your trigger parameters for getting those enrichments are simply too senstive. There is a parameter you can set to totally disable enrichments on accel---I tuned mine without enrichments enables by changing those parameters, then renabled them after tuning was done and trimmed for 'quick' throttle response. If those parameters are set to sensitive, even noise form a normal dirty TPS pot will cause them to trigger-which looks like is what is happening in your case. That TP line can't move a BIT without triggering the Accel or Decel parameters. I'd null them out a bit and retry. My Accel doesn't come on unless I really mash the throttle with some authority. Not necessarily to the floor, but stabbing it quickly will enrichen the mix, where a roll-on (like to pass when there is plenty of room) will not trigger it. Then it stays on for the decay time set---several igniton cycles as I recall, can't remember what it is and the program isn't being found right now on this laptop,( I know it has to be in here somewhere) so I can't tell you where mine's set. i'm sure others will f eed back on this subject with their settings. Valves with clearance are going to noiser. Noisy valves are loose valves. Loose valves are happy valves as they have residence time on the seat and can cool off. Quiet valves are tight valves, and tight valves are hot valves.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_82_ZXT Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 If you copied a lot of the settings here (like Moby's and also one of the first JPEG ones), I have found that the TPS settings are too sensitive which causes the accel enrichments to trigger. I really want to get MAPdot to work but can't, after fiddling around with the TPSdot for a while, I got it to work pretty nicely, just mess with the settings and see if they work! Mario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 My TPS (although quite sensitive as you describe) doesn't just jump. I'll calibrate it and the it will creep up 1% 2% 3%, no matter what I do with it. It's constantly changing. Sometimes if I tap it real quick it will drop to a negative % and work back up. I tried a TPS from the junkyard and one from the parts store. Both of them do the same thing. I'll look into the settings. Now for my VE tables. What a pain in the rear. Of course I'm using a narrow band o2, but still, this is ridiculous. I can't seem to gert this thing set for nothing. I don't want to use someones table like moby's because it seems like everyone is boosted and the non boosted ones I've found are running bigger injectors. My O2 reads lean, but by the looks of the plugs it's rich. I'm getting there, but I fear I'm going to have to blow the cash on the WB and tune it right just to get it going to where I can drive it. I've been using the MegaLogViewer to no avail. It's helped some, but nothing great. I just want to drive the thing and get good gas mileage, I'm not necessarily looking for super performance, otherwise I'd have changed the injectors out. At this point I need to readjust the valves as I think that's causing a lot of my MAP inconsistencies. Anymore tips or ideas for a VE and advance table please keep them coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_82_ZXT Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Hmm, I've never heard of that TPS problem. Seems quite odd. You're running MS-II right? On the VE tables, just do yourself a favor and get the WB. In 4 drives (and a broken/repaired front diff mount and rolled fenders later...) we have my friend's turbo 77 running 13 PSI without a hitch. Sounds dead sexy and even spins the drag radials hitting 2nd gear at 10 PSI! If you're set on using the narrowband, I think some people really like MegaTunix's tuning capabilities, you just have to make sure your O2 is in good working stated (not laggy or irresponsive). Maybe give that a try. Good luck! Mario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wyldemannn Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Man, i'm having some of the same issues with tps signal spiking, as the CAS wires ran down the same loom as the tps wires did. Got that cleared up, and now just from rearranging wiring I have no CAS signal to MS. The nissan ecm is seeing the CAS, but not the MS. EXACT same setup as before. This is maddening at times, and that's sad b/c i'm a GM/ASE master tech lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Listen guys...for all the experimentation I have done, and it was alot, I found that the car ran better with NO accel effects than poor ones. Try turning them off by raising the threshold really high. Then bring them in with very low numbers until it feels right. I run full MAP accel. 100%MAP 0%TPS. I posted my numbers in the msq sticky. Try them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Tuning on the road without a wideband is like playing basketball with a pitch black blindfold on. A narrowband sensor is like doing the same thing but with someone describing to you what the hoop looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 http://forums.hybridz.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3138&d=1184038055 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 cygnus, your accel settings are setup for boost. I copied everything from your attachment except I went for 100kpa, 60kpa, 40kpa, 20kpa and 1.5, 1.0, .7, .5 respectively. I was figuring that was more N/A friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 actually the values in the table are kpa/s NOT kpa. That's a big difference. kpa/s is the RATE at which you open the throttle. Boost has no effect on these numbers. Even you can make your MAP change 300kpa/s if you snap it open fast enough. You are confusing the two. My numbers should roughly work for you regardless of boost ot not. Any deviation between mine and yours would be due to injector specs or dynamic air flow differences in the throttle body. Go to the accel table in tuning, snap the throttle open as fast as you can and see how much kpa/s you can generate in datalog or just watching the bar in the graph that goes to 200kpa/s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 Ahhhh, now I understand. Thanks for clearing that up, I though 300kpa was really really high. I'll redo that tonight. Thanks again. Still need a worth while VE table though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 just use my table up to the 100kpa mark. Spread it out over your cells. Then tweak your req_fuel number until my VE map works to keep you idling and reving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 I thought about that. So why is it that the Table Generator doesn't work for anything? Every time I've tried to use it comes up with these outlandish numbers for everything. Anyhow, could you export your VE table for me and I'll make some adjustments to fit my application and then I can just import it from there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Yeah but I think it would be easier to just enter each number manually in the table and then look at the tuning 3D version to smooth it out. Anyhow, I will send you my VE vex file later tonight but I think you would be done manually by the time you get my vex table. BTW the table generator should work for VE. What is your estimated Req-Fuel? just enter the right input and the chart will be fine. Rough guess..... 2800cc idle 800 @ 20kpa 160ft-lb @ 4500 @100kpa 160hp @ 5600 @100kpa redline 7000 @ 100kpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 It ends up really rich. Thanks for the help cygnus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Then reduce the req-fuel. That will lean the entire table. Think of the Req_Fuel number as your RICH-LEAN knob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Yes, that was what I was getting at as well, turn off the accel and then work it back in slowly. The numbers are a rate of change, the difference between 300/s and 100/s is three times the 'quickness' of depressing the throttle. That is what I was getting at by the difference between 'rolling on' the throttle to pass when there is plenty of time, and giving it a quick stab like when you're revving the engine at a stoplight. If you have your mixture tuned correctly, you will be able to 'roll on' at speed and notice no stumbling, but when you stab it there will be a little stumble till airspeed catches up. AFter you have 'slow roll-on' response set, you can then work on accel enrichments slowly bringing in threshold till it triggers when you stab the throttle and you don't get the accel stumble. The numbers have to be pretty high for them not to come on---I may have misused 'spiking' in my earlier post, but your datalog shows pretty clearly that ANY change in the TPS reading---even 1% will trigger an accel or decel event. That is way too sensitive. Turn off all your accel/decel enrichments by setting the threshold setting skyhigh while you are tuning---what you have is a situation where your VE tables and Injector pulsewidth will NEVER have any direct link because of all the accel/decel events tweaking the mixture. As for plug reading, if they are sooty black then you're rich. That's all most people can reliably tell. You can NOT read spark plugs by reading the extended tip of the porcelan---that is incorrect reading methodology, if you use that you will ALWAYS be one or two jet sizes too rich! You have to use a loupe with a ring magnifier/illuminator to see what the color of the porcelan is at the base juncture where the metal meets it way up inside the plug body. This short surface, just maybe a mm or mm and a half wide is the section of the porcelan that is cool enough to NOT burn-off deposits and give a TRUE mixture reading when a clean-cut is done. I have had people say 'well when I read them your way it's always telling me they are rich!' Well, Duuuuuh! That's because THEY ARE! A nice tan tip out by the electrode will be black and sooty at the base---because you are rich! It's just that during normal operation the extended tip is running so hot it will combust the soot that normally would be deposited there as part of the combustion cycle. You have to look where the porcelan is COOL and can't alter the reading by self-cleaning (patented) properties of a tapered-extended tip porcelan center electrode insulator. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 Hmmm, those numbers seem to have generated a much more resonable table. I'll give it a shot tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 I keep coming back here with my fingers crossed. Don't let us down! Give us some good news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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