New project ??s

[ckelly78z]

Hey guys, i've been lurking on this site for awhile and occasionally posting, but I just felt like outlining my plans for my new project now that I am looking for parts to eventually get this started.

 

I recently sold my black bumperless 78 280Z that I had for the last 7 years and bought a really nice, virtually rust free, metallic blue 71 240Z with a 2/71 build date that has the rare blue interior, and factory A/C. It runs pretty good for the time being, but I have the itch for more HORSEPOWER, and better sound in the form of a relatively stock (to start with) Ford 5.0L V8 and a T-5 5 speed I plan on doing this Winter.

 

I researched this swap extensively, and read many of the posts in the "Ford V8 swap forum" , so I have a good idea of what I will need, and what it will cost in terms of money, blood/sweat/tears, and time, but I do a few questions.

 

--What parts need to be swapped out on an EFI 5.0L motor to go with an intake and a carb ??

--Will this reduce the performance of the motor by much ?

--If driven easily (jack rabbit starts to a minimum) how long will a R-180 with the stock 3.36 gears last with 250-275 HP?

 

THanks alot.........Chris

[lilredZ]

Some may disagree but I read a recent article where they swapped a carb on and GAINED HP. Parts = intake, carb, and air cleaner etc...

 

If you want I can try to find the article (magazine) but it was in a recent addition. A properly tuned carb with a good intake will outperform an FI system if it is not tuned optimally.

 

I would not argue that an optomized FI system should out perform a carb system simply because it is dynamically adjustable and distributed to each cylinder directly.

 

Some of the old school methods actually work well and may end up being better in certain cases.

 

FORD RACING has just (this year) released a 500+ HP 331 crate motor (not a stroker but actually a bored out boss block) with solid flat tappet lifters. This crate motor sells for $10K.

 

This is similar to my configuration.

 

The reasoning for the solid flat tappet is that they wind higher (im also running a forged DART SB assembly) and the solid flat tappets are less likely to float and more relaiable at severe RPMs (7K +).

 

Your Z sounds real nice...hold on to that factory air. It is hard to find. I am looking to AC my car but it's not easy.

[Gollum]

I'd agree with lilredz here, a GOOD aftermarket intake and a carb can outperform the stock FI. Personally I think this is because:

 

A) The stock intake isn't the greatest

 

and

 

The stock FI was tuned overly "safe" and keeps the mixture overly rich, especially in the higher RPM under load.

 

You shouldn't be able to watch the gas guage dissapear in a 5 liter engine making 250hp...

 

As to your first questions, not a whole lot. You'll need an intake, carb, and then you just need to sort out the fuel system and throttle linkage. I bet there's even a good writeup out there somewhere. A carborated takes up a lot LESS parts, not more, so it's much easier to convert to carb than it is to convert a car to EFI.

[V8INtheZ]

Car craft released an article some time ago on the Ford HO Mustang 5.0 engine. Im building my second Z based on that. They took a stock short block and made 400 HP with a set of heads, headers, intake/carb, and roller rockers. That was it.

 

They did a base dyno with the stock long block, and stock "headers" with a carb and a Stealth intake manifold to make 278 HP I believe it was.

 

This is basically where my engine is at now. The heads they used were AFR165's and they are supposed to be pretty nice heads.

[V8INtheZ]

Here is a link to the article. Read up and enjoy

 

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0307_ford_302_v8_engine_buildup/index.html

[Gollum]

Pretty nice might be an understatement.

 

I think I know what article you're talking about, and iirc the heads where a huge part of what made the power, and they were very impressed, as they're 50 state legal, with CARB numbers to prove it.

 

I think those heads make the 5.0 one of the best V8 swaps out there if you want to keep it legal. Heads + headers + intake + cam can all be found in 50 state legal varieties, and then you just need to give it a good tune and 400hp is perfectly expectable.

 

I've pretty much decided that WHEN I finally get around to having a true project Z car it's getting a SBF, either a 351W stroked to the max, or a 5.0 built up to be close to block splitting numbers.

[ckelly78z]

Basically, I want to get a late 80s, or early 90s EFI 5.0L, that runs, and doesn't really need a rebuild (yet), change it over to a good intake, and a new carb in the 600-650 range for simplicity purposes, just to get the car moving under V8 power. I plan on doing some head work to the stock heads, going with a higher ratio roller rockers, an aftermarket cam, and doing a re-ring /bearings /gaskets and bumping up the CR a bit maybe a year down the road when I have more time and money.

 

I fully plan on running an R-200 rear end with possibly some 300ZX turbo axles, but was curious how long the R-180 3.36 gears might last with 275 HP.

 

That Car Craft article definately gives me some more food for thought, and I saved it to my "favorites".

[ckelly78z]

I see in the CC article, that they used a Road Demon Jr 625 CFM carb and a Weiand intake.....any other thoughts on brandnames and carb sizing ??

[V8INtheZ]

Im going to use an Edelbrock Performer set up. I have the carb and intake right now. Im using a 600 cfm for now, its plenty big for a 302. The Weiand Stealth is supposed to flow a tad better then the Eddy, but the Eddy has a matched carb. Its really all in the heads anyway. My car will be running by the end of today, and perhaps driving by tomorrow or so. Had to put the Turbo 4 Cylinder Z on hold for a bit.

[Gollum]

I fully plan on running an R-200 rear end with possibly some 300ZX turbo axles, but was curious how long the R-180 3.36 gears might last with 275 HP.

 

Nobody else is saying anything, and I know this information isn't READILY availble here, though I'm sure you can get a good idea if you search around enough, so I'll give you my EDUCATED GUESS

 

Disclaimer:

 

This is by no means to be taken as gospel or even truth. These following words are just the ramblings of someone who's spent too much time on this site drooling over cars he wishes he had the time, money, and talent to build.

 

 

I'd say the stock R180 should last a long time, IF... You keep the tire size down and DO NOT shift hard past 2nd gear. Take it easy and apply power slowly when shifting to 3rd and 4th and it should hold up a long time.

 

These diffs don't tend to gradually die, they tend to kinda fail all at once. They die from huge shock loads from shifting hard at speed when there's lots of traction availble. As long as you apply the power SLOWLY or don't put huge sticky tires on it you should be ok.

 

With those power levels I wouldn't take it to the track without a trailer to take it home on in case the worst happened.

[V8INtheZ]

And no burnouts. Roasting tires is a sure way to break an open R180 diff.

[ckelly78z]

About 2 months ago I ended up selling the 71 240Z because of lack of funds to get the V-8 project started, and all the other things that the 71 needed.

 

Just tonight, I picked up an 82 280ZXT car without the motor/trans for $500. It has new Borla exhaust, new tires on the swasticas, new APC racing seats, many new misc parts that can be used or sold. It also came with a thick file of reciepts, and warrenties for other work done, but best of all, it came with a new JTR swap manual.

 

The car still has the entire turbo wiring harness, air conditioning pump, lines and condensor, T-tops with good rubber seals, good glass, two small rust holes about golf ball sized, solid floors and doors, and analog dash/gauges.

 

I plan on finding an early 90s 5.0L 302 Ford V-8 and a 5 speed to rebuild and modify along the lines of the aforementioned CAR CRAFT article as money allows. I will initually install the newly carbed motor/trans in near stock condition to get all the bugs worked out and then modify with the AFR heads, roller rockers, underdrive pulleys, and possibly a mild cam when I can afford it.

[ckelly78z]

Too much rust on the 82 ZXT, so I am parting it out in favor of a future S30 project.

 

I am still collecting parts as time and funds allow in this economy (I work for a Japenese Auto industry tier 1 supplier, and currently down to 4 days a week with no overtime in sight).

 

Still need a JTR tranny crossmember(Chevy will work), and fabbed up motor mounts.

[slyhog22056]

I built my 5.0 from a 88 lincoln towncar engine, heads milled .030, fully ported, port matched, polished, removed the smog bumps, used edelbrock torker high rise manifold with 2 1/2" spacer, Holley 650 cfm carb, E303 cam, timing gear set, balanced internals to within 3 grams, kept roller lifter setup, HEI ignition and took it to a friend of mine to put on engine dyno to break it in, first pass before and real tuning...351 HP, setting ignition curve and timing set....388 HP.. reset carb and jetting ended up with 438 HP. Dont let anyone tell you carbbed motors wont tune well, cant tune a EFI to get these numbers with out spend mucho dinero on injectors, throttle bodies and lots of puter reprogramming... besides when your efi screws up on the raod whatcha gonna do?? carb screws up you can make drivable in most cases.

[AkumaNoZeta]

I have a pretty general question here and didn't want to start a new thread, how much weight can be saved by twitching to an aluminum 302 block?

[Trevor]

100 lbs.

[V8INtheZ]

I have a pretty general question here and didn't want to start a new thread, how much weight can be saved by twitching to an aluminum 302 block?

 

I was wondering the same thing. Found an aluminum Dart block for 5k. Figured that with a set of aliminum AFR heads and a polymer Comp intake The engine would only weigh in the low 300's

[AkumaNoZeta]

Surprisingly that doesn't help me as much as I thought it would, but this would. How much does the 302 wiegh with cast iron block, cast iron heads, aluminum intake and carb? How much with all the same but aluminum heads? How much with aluminum block and heads? I know I am a little finicky but I like details.

[Gollum]

100 pounds? Sorry to say it, but that's a big pile of internet bull. The ford windsor based small blocks don't have THAT much weight in the block, well under 200 pounds for the light 5.0 variety. Think about it, if the engine itself is well under 500 pounds complete (been proven all over the place) WITH iron heads, then the block can't weight more than 200 pounds. In fact, the exact numbers escape me but I think the stock 5.0 block is around 160#. The aluminum dart block is MUCH beefier than any of the production ford blocks, which though makes it nice and strong... adds to the weight. I think you'll be LUCKY if you loose 50 pounds, but even loosing 30-40 pounds on the block alone can make a huge difference in lowering the weight of the engine.

 

I personally think that an all aluminum ford small block with EFI would weight in around 415 pounds. Maybe 390 if you're extremely lucky/skilled/anal.

 

Now, switching to things like a polymer intake like what V8intheZ mentioned can shave off 20 pounds. Attention to detail in things like that can pay off big. But just remember that even 350 pounds is insanely light for a v8 engine over anything more than 4 liters.

[V8INtheZ]

Gollum is correct...

 

I did a little poking around and have some pretty solid numbers.

 

The HO 5.0L Mustang short block with stock rotating assembly: 195 LBS

 

The HO 5.0L Mustang Bare block: 125 LBS

 

Darts Aluminum 5.0L Bare Block: 83 LBS

 

Stock HO 5.0L heads fully assembled: 53 LBS

 

Twisted Wedge Aluminum heads Fully assembled: 33 LBS

 

So by using a Dart block, Ali heads, and a poly intake you could lose about 100 pounds total. Now I need to find out how much a full stock engine with only an alternator weighs, pretty sure its in the 450 range.