wigenOut-S30 Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Hey hybridZ folx, There was a discussion a while back about the more efficient way to run your IC piping if you had a IC with the inlet and outlet on the opposite sides. This is what I have found from having my IC piping both ways.. First off the way I used to have it. The hot side went straight to the IC and the cold side went accross the Radiator and into the TB.(this was with mild steel as well) We will call this Option-A- Then I wanted to change things up and run the opposite direction for looks and comparison. (aluminum piping now) We will call this way Option-B- Just to let everyone know.. I was on the wrong side of this debate. My thinking was, It really didn't matter which way the IC piping went because of the air moving so fast it just wouldn't matter. Well.. I was wrong!! It does make a difference and a pretty significant one. With Option A, I noticed when cruising I was getting about 9-11 deg above ambient temps. At WOT.. it was around 114-125 deg. Option B, I am getting 1-3 deg above ambient temps. Thats a pretty large difference I wasn't expecting!! Right now I cannot do WOT pulls because of wrong size T-bolt clamps but the new ones will be here Monday and I will do some WOT comparison. I am thinking my WOT will be cooler as well. This is just something I wanted to do and I am glad I did. Option A isn't a bad way to do things at all, but option B seems to be more efficient so far.. Thanks for looking and keep tuned in for WOT test!.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnitz Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Nice packaging setup for your Turbo and IC. Have you ever thought of "standing the IC off" from the radiator? Such that the radiator also draws air in from a small cavity formed between the two? Have you looked into thermal coatings for the aluminum lines that route from the turbo to IC to intake? Thermal dispersant coating is applied on the exterior and helps dissipate thermal flux faster than aluminum can on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Purple240zt Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Good call gabe, I found my piping was much cooler when it was not right behind the radiator. I don't have a way to log temps. Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyZ Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Seems good and I would tend to agree even prior to your testing, but this is not scientific proof at all. That aluminum piping may be contributing to a greater difference than you realize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4xwellmurd3r Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 It does seem that running the hot side across the rad, and the cold side direct would make it cooler, since the cold side doesn't have to cross the rad after it's been cooled by the IC, BUT the aluminum could be contributing to the lower temps as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Seems good and I would tend to agree even prior to your testing, but this is not scientific proof at all. That aluminum piping may be contributing to a greater difference than you realize. no were in my post did I say it was scientific fact. Just the findings that I have found. During cruising the aluminum should be about the same as mild steel but where the huge difference is after the engine is turned off. The aluminum will cool off much much much faster. I guess what we need is someone who has there IC piping run the way I do in Option B but has Mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I usually go with stainless on anything after the intercooler that may exist in the engine compartment (read: anywhere behind radiator). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow_Old_Car Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I can help establish the difference in mild steel and aluminum piping, as i have two different sets of piping, same routing, one in .060 mild, one in .060 6061 aluminum. I'll grab some logs when i have both cars in my care and see if a percentage difference can be established. In the mean time i would definately like to see the IAT cruise and WOT values for the altered aluminum path to satisfy my own curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyZ Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 no were in my post did I say it was scientific fact. Just the findings that I have found.[snip] Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you - I come on a little hard, fast, and exacting sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you - I come on a little hard, fast, and exacting sometimes. No problemmo shaggy... Yasin That would be awesome if you can man.. that way we can nail down some hard data. I Got my clamps in today so I might be able to do some pulls tonight.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 Ok I went out tonight and data logged. Here are the results.. drove around for about 30 minutes and then saved 2 datalogs.. Gears are 2nd to the top of 4th. 2nd gear AIT's got up to 74-deg, 3rd got up to 88-deg, 4th ran up to 99-deg. My second run was pretty much identical accept 4th climbed up to 101. I say.. NOT BAD!!! considering It used to be 114-120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow_Old_Car Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 with what ambient air temp though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Ambient temperatures will not matter much, what is important is that if you have a choice, make the 'hot' pipe as long as possible, and the 'cold' pipe as short as possible. The decrease in temperature is what I would expect to see from this kind of rerouting of the pipes. A little thermal barrier wrapping may help on the front side of the pipe between radiator airflow and hot pipe from turbo...but putting it under the pan to get it to the other side like KTM did would probably work even better. Many people run them 'same side' and it's just not optimal for the space available in the car. I think KTM's setup which is close to the Option B setup is close to ideal, keeping the pipe away from the heat soak of air flowing across the radiator, and lengthening the time in the hot pipe before hitting the cooler core. Longer it's in the pipe, the more chance it has to give up it's heat. Hot pipe off the turbo will be hotter than most anything else in the engine bay short of the exhaust manifold, so routing it almost anyplace will allow it to cool. Cool pipe off the I/C will be cooler than most anything else in the engine bay, so routing it as short as possible will allow the minimum chance of soaking in any heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted April 30, 2008 Author Share Posted April 30, 2008 with what ambient air temp though? in the 50's at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted April 30, 2008 Author Share Posted April 30, 2008 Ambient temperatures will not matter much, what is important is that if you have a choice, make the 'hot' pipe as long as possible, and the 'cold' pipe as short as possible. The decrease in temperature is what I would expect to see from this kind of rerouting of the pipes. A little thermal barrier wrapping may help on the front side of the pipe between radiator airflow and hot pipe from turbo...but putting it under the pan to get it to the other side like KTM did would probably work even better. Many people run them 'same side' and it's just not optimal for the space available in the car. I think KTM's setup which is close to the Option B setup is close to ideal, keeping the pipe away from the heat soak of air flowing across the radiator, and lengthening the time in the hot pipe before hitting the cooler core. Longer it's in the pipe, the more chance it has to give up it's heat. Hot pipe off the turbo will be hotter than most anything else in the engine bay short of the exhaust manifold, so routing it almost anyplace will allow it to cool. Cool pipe off the I/C will be cooler than most anything else in the engine bay, so routing it as short as possible will allow the minimum chance of soaking in any heat. I had thought about running it the way KTM's is run but I had already ordered my pipe and layed out the plan.. I think im going to stick with how it is for a while.. but when I change turbo's I might just swap out like that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow_Old_Car Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Well, aluminum appears to far out perform mild steel piping.... Todays setup... Car 1: P90/F54, 2mm HKS, Holset HY35w, Mild 2.5" piping, 12"x24"x3" treadstone FMIC, full 3" exhaust, AZ car radiator w/ 160 thermo, SPAL 3200cfm fan, 10psi via tial wastegate. 3.54 rear end gearing on a 26.1" tall tire. Z32 trans. Car 2: P90/F54, 2mm HKS, Holset HY35w, 6061 Aluminum 2.5" piping, 12"x24"x3" treadstone FMIC, full 3" exhaust, Griffin radiator w/ 160 thermo, Zirgo 3500cfm fan, 10psi via tial wastegate. 3.36 rear end gearing on a 24.9" tall tire. 280z trans. Unknown aftermarket camshaft. The parameters: Ambient Temp at testing: 75 degrees Humidity: 40% Time of day, mid afternoon, 1-2pm CST Gear of comparison: 4th gear, so both are 1:1 ratio Car 1 w/ mild steel IC piping: Beginning of the run IAT: 116 degrees in 2nd gear @ 3200rpm End of the run IAT: 133 degrees in 4th gear @ 5600rpm Beginning of the run CLT: 177 degrees in 2nd gear @ 3200rpm End of the run CLT: 191 degrees in 4th gear @ 5600rpm Car 2 w/ aluminum IC piping: Beginning of the run IAT: 99 degrees in 4th gear @ 2400rpm End of the run IAT: 121 degrees in 4th gear @ 6300rpm Beginning of the run CLT: 175 degrees in 4th gear @ 2400rpm End of the run CLT: 179 degrees in 4th gear @ 6300rpm Conclusion: We are not satisfied with the results, we feel they are skewwed as a result of Car 1 doing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th consecutively, and Car 2 did solely a 4th gear pull. Additionally with the rear end gears being different, testing in 1:1 on 4th gear still is somewhat skewwed. However with the difference in tire sizes on each car the speeds don't seem to change more than 1mph in either direction so the loads should be fairly similiar making it a potentially mute point. Lastly the camshaft is proving to be a big mystery on car 2, no cam card, no model number, nothing. It makes registered boost at 2000rpm and makes a full 10psi by 3000rpm as opposed to car one which registers at 3000rpm and makes the full 10psi by 3500rpm. The odd part is that Car 2 while having 11.8:1 AFR's on acceleration it diesels pretty bad out of the exhaust... still working on that one. Is it possible to remap the cam with a standard cam dial in kit or would that be a machine shop gig? We'll be going back out tonight and doing 4th gear only pulls again to even the table. But so far aluminum kicks some ass it would seem in the standard cold side behind the radiator style of routing. Any additional insite is welcomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted May 3, 2008 Author Share Posted May 3, 2008 Wow, first of all THANKS for the testing!!.. both cars seem to be running pretty hot AIT's. The other night I did a couple of full pulls rowing the gears from 1st all the way to the top of 4th. the ending AIT was 120. I will see if I saved the loggs and upload em. Thanks again and keep the testing coming.. it sure does look like aluminum makes a difference on its own.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Any chance we can get this thread moved to the turbo/supercharger forum? This isn't really L6 specific, and I thought I was loosing my mind when I went digging through the turbo forum trying to find this thread and couldn't! I've noticed with the increased number of sub-forums that I'm having a lot more difficulty finding things now. Nigel '73 240ZT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow_Old_Car Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Alright, got more solid readings last night. Todays setup... Car 1: P90/F54, 2mm HKS, Holset HY35w, Mild 2.5" piping, 12"x24"x3" treadstone FMIC, full 3" exhaust, AZ car radiator w/ 160 thermo, SPAL 3200cfm fan, 10psi via tial wastegate. 3.54 rear end gearing on a 26.1" tall tire. Z32 trans. Car 2: P90/F54, 2mm HKS, Holset HY35w, 6061 Aluminum 2.5" piping, 12"x24"x3" treadstone FMIC, full 3" exhaust, Griffin radiator w/ 160 thermo, Zirgo 3500cfm fan, 10psi via tial wastegate. 3.36 rear end gearing on a 24.9" tall tire. 280z trans. Unknown aftermarket camshaft. The parameters: Ambient Temp at testing: 65 degrees Humidity: 50% Time of day, early evening, 6-7pm CST Gear of comparison: 3rd gear Car 1 w/ mild steel IC piping: Beginning of the run IAT: 103 degrees in 3rd gear @ 2600rpm End of the run IAT: 115 degrees in 3rd gear @ 6000rpm Beginning of the run CLT: 171 degrees in 3rd gear @ 2600rpm End of the run CLT: 182 degrees in 3rd gear @ 6000rpm Car 2 w/ aluminum IC piping: Beginning of the run IAT: 86 degrees in 3rd gear @ 3500rpm End of the run IAT: 104 degrees in 3rd gear @ 6500rpm Beginning of the run CLT: 162 degrees in 3rd gear @ 3500rpm End of the run CLT: 166 degrees in 3rd gear @ 6500rpm Conclusion: Starting IAT difference: 17 degrees difference Ending IAT difference: 11 degrees difference Starting CLT difference: 9 degrees difference Ending CLT difference: 16 degrees difference Starting IAT gains from aluminum: 17% Ending IAT gains from aluminum: 10% Starting CLT gains from aluminum: 5% Ending CLT gains from aluminum: 9% Feel free to double check the math as i'm no math major. I tried to generate as much useful stats as i could, but i'm guessing someone better w/ numbers will find a did the math wrong possibly. I'm not really suprised the 6061 piping performed better. I don't think anyone is really. However what i did find interesting is what happens after you shut the throttle. I will have to go back and look at both cars deccel enrichment settings, but the car with mild steel piping has it's IAT readings shoot up when the throttle closes, where as the 6061 piped car has its IAT readings go down. Now this could be the steel pipes being heat soaked and dumping it all into the engine which now has no fresh supply of cooler air so the charge temps go way up, this could be because the deccel enrichment settings are completely different, etc... not really sure. Any additional input is welcome. Aluminum Piping: Mild Steel Piping: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 SOC, thank you for doing all of this testing. I believe that the results are still a bit skewed because of the difference in boost pressure. More pressure = hotter air charge. Edit: "I'm not really suprised the 6061 piping performed better. I don't think anyone is really. However what i did find interesting is what happens after you shut the throttle. I will have to go back and look at both cars deccel enrichment settings, but the car with mild steel piping has it's IAT readings shoot up when the throttle closes, where as the 6061 piped car has its IAT readings go down. Now this could be the steel pipes being heat soaked and dumping it all into the engine which now has no fresh supply of cooler air so the charge temps go way up, this could be because the deccel enrichment settings are completely different, etc... not really sure." This is really surprising. The temperature climbed another 22 degrees with the throttle shut! That is huge. Remember that eventhough the turbo is not boosting, the engine is still getting cool air though not at nearly the same flowrate. As for deccel enrichment, I am not sure how this would cause an increase in IATs. You IAT is not affected by the combustion temps in the cylinder unlike CLT. If you do any additionaly testing, try pulling over immediately after the run and measure the skin temperatures of the aluminum and mild steel piping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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