TurboSE Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm starting to plan my fuel system for my RB26 project. What I have so far is a rear sump 5gal. vented fuel cell (with foam, -10AN out/-8AN ret). I also have a Greddy fuel rail. The car will mainly be a street car but will see some light strip time. I'm looking to feed between 500-600whp (with room to grow later, if I ever feel that isn't enough). My original plan was to just go with Aeromotive's whole A1000 catalog. Cell > 100mic. filter > A1000 pump w/A1000 controller > 10mic. filter > Greddy rail > A1000 FI bypass regulator. I will not be reusing the stock fuel lines, instead running braided -10AN from the cell and -8AN return. My questions are: What size injectors would you recommend? Is there a more reliable set-up? Money's not really a concern, I have nothing but time. I'm running a PFC for tuning if that makes any difference in injector selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdmanZ Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I would probably run a bosch 044 pump instead of the A1000. Much less noise and from what I understand a much less troublsome pump. For injectors you should be looking in the 680-750cc area. As a general rule of thumb you need 1 cc per horsepower for a 6 cylinder engine. Brandon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 i second the bosch 044 idea,but i would use 2 of them for 600hp bosch pumps maintain very good flow across a wide voltage range....some other pumps look good flow wise until you look at a graph as voltage drops below 14v and then it can almost halve around 12v i would also use a surge tank/swirl pot off the main tank to ensure you never starve the pump/s lastly i would get a sparky to rewire the fuel pumps from a direct power source, with a relay and heavy duty cable,to maintain maximum voltage oh and for injectors you can't go past Nismo for the RB26's,extremely good injectors with very even fuel atomisation,great for tuning and idle once you go to big injectors ie 600cc+ you can have real trouble with the idle,i believe sards are renowned for this as they are mainly compromised to provide top end flow.....bit like a fire hose,great for large jets at high pressure but becomes a dribble when you try to shut it down to a fine mist and lastly the Nispro fuel pressure regulators are still retained by quite a few big hp GTR's in Japan,along with the standard fuel rails....speaks volumes i reckon and they are pretty reasonably priced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I would probably run a bosch 044 pump instead of the A1000. Much less noise and from what I understand a much less troublsome pump. For injectors you should be looking in the 680-750cc area. As a general rule of thumb you need 1 cc per horsepower for a 6 cylinder engine. Brandon 1cc/1hp is a good rule to remember. As for the Bosch 044, I've done a little research on them, from what I've read...they don't flow as much as the A1000, can anybody give some specifics (a place to search) on the Bosch 044 as an external pump? Also, the noise isn't a huge issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 i second the bosch 044 idea,but i would use 2 of them for 600hpbosch pumps maintain very good flow across a wide voltage range....some other pumps look good flow wise until you look at a graph as voltage drops below 14v and then it can almost halve around 12v i would also use a surge tank/swirl pot off the main tank to ensure you never starve the pump/s lastly i would get a sparky to rewire the fuel pumps from a direct power source, with a relay and heavy duty cable,to maintain maximum voltage oh and for injectors you can't go past Nismo for the RB26's,extremely good injectors with very even fuel atomisation,great for tuning and idle once you go to big injectors ie 600cc+ you can have real trouble with the idle,i believe sards are renowned for this as they are mainly compromised to provide top end flow.....bit like a fire hose,great for large jets at high pressure but becomes a dribble when you try to shut it down to a fine mist and lastly the Nispro fuel pressure regulators are still retained by quite a few big hp GTR's in Japan,along with the standard fuel rails....speaks volumes i reckon and they are pretty reasonably priced From what I've read on the Bosch pumps, I was figuring I would have to run 2. Would I just wire them on two seperate lines in paralel or both inline? I am already rewiring my whole chassis, and I'm at the point I need to start thinking about wiring pumps/controllers. Would I need two controlers for dual pumps? Thanks for the NISMO tip...I was looking at Sard's, but I've heard other places they're more for top-end. I'll check on NISMO's offerings. Same with the fuel rail and regulator... Thanks for the great tips and all the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 1cc/1hp is a good rule to remember. As for the Bosch 044, I've done a little research on them, from what I've read...they don't flow as much as the A1000, can anybody give some specifics (a place to search) on the Bosch 044 as an external pump? Also, the noise isn't a huge issue. can't find the link but search for bosch specs on voltage and pressures with regards to fuel flow without ALL these specs for each fuel pump you can't really compare them or make an informed decision 14v at no back pressure is a meaningless specification to quote,if the pump manufacturer you choose can't provide the other specs then don't buy it with regard to the twin pump set-up,run two lines from the surge tank,one to each pump then "T" them into one line that goes up to the fuel rail don't forget the return line from the fuel rail to the fuel cell another point to bear in mind is that the high pressure fuel pumps are very inefficient at sucking,they tend to cavitate and overheat leading to premature failure,so make sure you mount them below the outlet of the fuel cell so they are not working against gravity lastly running twin pumps is cheap insurance in a big HP turbo application as it is very unlikely they will both fail simultaneously.....losing fuel pressure when on boost is certain to lead to a melted piston:nono:also useful to run a fuel pressure gauge to see what is going on when you set the system up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty Wez Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 044 pumps have been around for awhile, alot of high HP DSM guys run them. I was going to probably use one in my Z but having 2 is definitely good insurance for high HP, high boost engines. I would trust one of those over an Aeromotive pump anyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I don't know much about surge tanks....I plan on mounting my pump(s) below the fuel cell, so would I still need one? Would the set-up go something like this? cell > surge tank > pump(s) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I have a alloy fuel tank set up with twin facet red top pumping into a swirl pot and a Bosch 044 pumping up to the engine with a return back to the fuel tank. The twin facet pumps will alway make sure that the swirl pot never runs dry. Alloy Tank - Facet Pumps - Swirl Pot - Bosch Pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I have a alloy fuel tank set up with twin facet red top pumping into a swirl pot and a Bosch 044 pumping up to the engine with a return back to the fuel tank. The twin facet pumps will alway make sure that the swirl pot never runs dry. Alloy Tank - Facet Pumps - Swirl Pot - Bosch Pump my cell is bottom sumped with a foam insert, so would I still need the surge tank...I'd like to avoid running 3 pumps if possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Here is a couple pics from the photo album link in my sig. I have a alum cell, feeding from both -8 fittings on the sump portion of the cell, to two walbro pumps, to a filter/water separator, to a single -10 line to rail. Return is -8 from fuel pressure reg. back to top of cell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Here is a couple pics from the photo album link in my sig. I have a alum cell, feeding from both -8 fittings on the sump portion of the cell, to two walbro pumps, to a filter/water separator, to a single -10 line to rail. Return is -8 from fuel pressure reg. back to top of cell. Nice set-up...that's the kind of set-up I want to run. One question, would it be better to have the filter before the pumps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Here is a couple pics from the photo album link in my sig. I have a alum cell, feeding from both -8 fittings on the sump portion of the cell, to two walbro pumps, to a filter/water separator, to a single -10 line to rail. Return is -8 from fuel pressure reg. back to top of cell. More questions....are your Walbros below the sump (as I've been told they should be)? Have you had any issues with air in the fuel (does your cell have a foam insert)? Do you use any type of controller? What type of HP are you making? Is your Z a street car? Any answers/help would be awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 As shown, they are at the level of the bottom of the cell, which I think is fine as far as fuel pick up. I have never had a fuel issue (but I have not tried out the set up at it's full potential) so far. Yes, it is a foamed cell. No controller.. I really have no idea on HP numbers. It's 100% a street car. Sorry, this is all I can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 As shown, they are at the level of the bottom of the cell, which I think is fine as far as fuel pick up. I have never had a fuel issue (but I have not tried out the set up at it's full potential) so far. Yes, it is a foamed cell. No controller.. I really have no idea on HP numbers. It's 100% a street car. Sorry, this is all I can offer. Thanks, that's really all I needed to know! I'm gonna mount mine level with the fittings on the sump. Mostly on the street. As long as they're reliable on the street, I should be set. No controller...cha-ching$$ Thanks so much, awesome car BTW! PS - Walbro vs. Bosch...both flow the same according to tests, any reason I should pick one or the other? once again HybridZ, you guys are the greatest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Others may have different opinions, but for me, I choose the walbro's (make sure they are genuine, as there are even fakes of these...lol) because of the deal on cost at the time I bought them. I couldn't find a pair of bosch's for anywhere near what I got the walbro's for. Until I'm proven wrong, I think the walbro's can do the job for what I need them for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 the walbro pump has no where near the bosch 044 flow once the voltage drops below 14V and the line pressure rises both will probably work for you sometimes a few extra dollars in the right place is good insurance if your entire motor is a budget build then you could use use a budget pump but bear in mind lack of fuel when on boost motor goes bang you should have enough info and advice to make an informed decision now good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rowe Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I have attached some docs on all these subjects. In Fuel Tank Fittings I have drawn the fuel circuit which you might find useful. I have done most of what Paul has suggested, so in the docs are part numbers etc. I woul d from what I have read, use a surge tank NISMO Fuel Regulator Part number : 22670-RR580-US regards Fuel Tank Fittings.pdf Fuel Delivery.pdf Fuel Pumps.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty Wez Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I have attached some docs on all these subjects. In Fuel Tank Fittings I have drawn the fuel circuit which you might find useful. I have done most of what Paul has suggested, so in the docs are part numbers etc. I woul d from what I have read, use a surge tankNISMO Fuel Regulator Part number : 22670-RR580-US regards Nice info there. Been reading alot on fuel systems and what the 26 would benefit the most from and this really helps Now I just need to decide whether its a fuel cell or sumped stocker.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 what's a good size for a surge tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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