Glass bedding rifle stock

[JMortensen]

I'm looking into the specifics of glass bedding, thinking I want to try it myself. I have a new stock coming for my first gun, a Remington 581. The original stock was cut down to fit me when I was 5, and it's so short it's pretty much impossible to use anymore. The stock I purchased for it is not 100% finished. It's a "98% semi-finished" stock, and my understanding is that I will need to clearance the stock for the action (chisel, sandpaper, ???). I read one site that suggests relieving the stock just enough to get a nice tight fit on the receiver, then I started thinking that didn't seem like a very good way to do it because you'd have potentially uneven tight spots which I would think would throw accuracy off, so I started looking into glass bedding tech.

 

So far what I've found:

 

1. Several different methods are used and nobody seems to think there is a "best" method. They include:

Bed action, free float barrel.

Bed action and the first couple inches of the barrel.

Bed action and entire barrel.

Bed action (possibly with the first couple inches of the barrel) and an inch or two at the end of the stock.

 

Some theories about bedding: Free floated barrel is more consistent when the barrel gets hot because the hot barrel reponds differently to pressure at the end of the stock if that method is used. On the other hand if you have a thin barrel a bit of pressure at the end of the stock helps to stop vibration in the barrel making it more accurate from shot to shot, but less accurate for many shots in a row as the barrel heats up and responds differently to the pressure. With regards to setting pressure at the end of the barrel, I've seen one site that suggests letting the glass at the end of the stock harden with a 5 lb weight hanging from the stock. When cured and the weight is removed, this should produce a 5 lb pressure on the end of the barrel.

 

2. There are a ton of different fiberglass compounds to use including many specifically made for the job, but people use just about every type of epoxy or filler you could imagine.

 

Makes me wonder if I could use the West System epoxy with one of their fillers, like their high density filler. I really like their epoxy as it doesn't reek and has been easy for me to use as a complete novice at bodywork.

 

3. Some sites talk about packing the holes for the magazine, etc with playdoh to prevent the glass getting in there. I haven't seen any address what to do about the holes where the action bolts to the stock. I suppose you have to just redrill these after the fiberglass hardens. It's a simple question, but I haven't seen it answered.

 

4. One thing that seems a little backwards to me is the idea of bedding down the barrel a couple of inches, but not keeping that front line of fiberglass uniform. It seems to me that the end of the fiberglass would need to be absolutely straight in order to uniformly support the barrel. Maybe I'm making too much out of this. I like the idea of glass a couple inches down the barrel, but can't figure out how to get that straight line without potentially screwing up the whole bedding job. Maybe excess could be removed with a dremel afterward, but I'd be scared of slipping and gouging the stock. I suppose some tape on the stock might be all that is necessary to prevent damage...

 

Anyway just looking for feedback on any of the above and perhaps some firsthand experiences. I know we have some hardcore gun nuts here, hoping someone can help me out.

[jt1]

I would do the action and the first couple of inches of the barrel. After that's complete, you can experiment with shimming the forearm to see if it helps. If so, you can glass it later on. The couple of inches of glass being square doesn't matter, but if it bugs you tape it off or use a dremel to relieve it after the fact.

 

When you relieve the stock stop about 1/4" inch short of the edge where the stock meets the metal, so you don't see the glass from the outside. It makes a much neater job IMO.

 

You can tape the action screws oversize or bore the holes afterward, or both. Use plenty of release on the screws, and everything you don't want glass on.

 

If your rifle has a recoil lug, only bed the rear of the lug. Tape up or clearance the side and front. It's usually easier to tape it. Use plenty of release.

 

Tape up the trigger, mag, and any part of the gun not touching the glass. Use plenty of release.

 

Did I mention use plenty of release?

 

Edit to add: There are about as many methods as people who do this, so don't be surprised if you get a lot of different opinions. If the old stock has no sentimental value, I highly recomend a practice run on it before you start gouging on the new one!

 

John

[JMortensen]

I would do the action and the first couple of inches of the barrel. After that's complete, you can experiment with shimming the forearm to see if it helps. If so, you can glass it later on. The couple of inches of glass being square doesn't matter, but if it bugs you tape it off or use a dremel to relieve it after the fact.

 

When you relieve the stock stop about 1/4" inch short of the edge where the stock meets the metal, so you don't see the glass from the outside. It makes a much neater job IMO.

 

You can tape the action screws oversize or bore the holes afterward, or both. Use plenty of release on the screws, and everything you don't want glass on.

 

If your rifle has a recoil lug, only bed the rear of the lug. Tape up or clearance the side and front. It's usually easier to tape it. Use plenty of release.

 

Tape up the trigger, mag, and any part of the gun not touching the glass. Use plenty of release.

 

Did I mention use plenty of release?

 

Edit to add: There are about as many methods as people who do this, so don't be surprised if you get a lot of different opinions. If the old stock has no sentimental value, I highly recomend a practice run on it before you start gouging on the new one!

 

John

Thanks John.

 

Good tip on not clearancing all the way up the stock. Thanks.

 

You mentioned taping the action screws oversize. I assume that means wrap tape around the bolt so that the hole in the fiberglass would be larger than necessary when the bolt is removed. One thing I neglected to mention in the first post is that I saw a youtube video online where a guy C-clamped the action into the barrel, and that seemed like a much better way to get the action firmly pressed into the glass, especially with my .22 which really just has one bolt holding the action in. The other screws attach the trigger guard to wood of the stock. I guess some people use the screw to hold the action in the barrel too, but with only one screw it seems like the clamps are the way to go.

 

I'm planning on using the old stock to teach my kid to shoot and it does have some sentimental value. This is a .22, so no recoil lug to worry about this time, but it it goes well I might do it again on my .243 which was never quite as accurate as I wanted it to be.

[jt1]

You mentioned taping the action screws oversize. I assume that means wrap tape around the bolt so that the hole in the fiberglass would be larger than necessary when the bolt is removed.

 

Yes. A couple of layers should do it, but it's tricky to get the right amount of tape up the threads on the bolt(s). Too much and it wads up under the action, not enough and you glass the threads.

 

That's the first time I've heard of the c clamp method. Seems like it could work pretty good. Remember the whole idea is to provide a uniform, stable bearing surface between the action and stock.

 

In my experience it's very easy to use way too much glass, and get it all over everything, hence my warnings about taping and release agent. After the glass cures, if you have a big enough freezer you can put it in the freezer a while and the action will usually pop right out of the stock.

 

jt

[NCchris]

What jt1 said 100%.

As far as a "best", different barrel/actions respond differently. What's good for a heavy caliber hunting rifle might not work for a benchrest rifle etc,etc.

I would like to add to what jt1 said, use plenty of release.

[JMortensen]

Here's a Rem 581 update. Been working on this thing after dinner at night for a while. It took a month to get the stock from the auction on gunbroker.com that I won. The guy didn't ship at first, then it was delivered to my neighbor, the order just went badly. But the end result was that I did get the stock. It was ROUGH. Read some sites on the internet and they talk about these semi-finished gun stocks being pretty much plug and play, pick your color, do a finish sanding, etc. Not this one.

 

First problem was the cutout for the action was about 3/16" too short. This required me to buy some wood gouges which I didn't have, but hey, new tools are never a bad thing I guess. So I went to work and removed some wood so that the action sat correctly in the stock. When this was accomplished though, the bolt was rubbing on the cutout in the stock, so I had to remove some material there. I had to keep going back and forth and back and forth to get it in there nicely.

 

Unlike those plug and play stocks you read about on the net, this one took some hours with 80 grit to get the waves out of the wood. It looked like a poorly bondoed car when you looked down the side. So after a lot of sanding I started reading about finishing stocks. I decided I wanted to stain the stock and I like a dark reddish stain, so I looked and found Minwax's Red Mahogany and it looked right so I stained it and it came out DARK. Really dark. So then I went on to finish with Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil. One coat to seal the wood, then the rest are just to get it to the level of smooth you want. Wetsanding with 320 then 500 grit and cutting the oil 50/50 with mineral spirits, then wiping off the excess worked well and it was looking pretty damn good.

 

At this point I made a big mistake and followed Birchwood Casey's advice and tried to put a "finish" coat on with my finger. I was doubtful about the idea in the first place, but this is how they say to do it. My instinct was right, this is the most retarded way to try to get a finish coat of anything on a smooth surface I've ever come across. Uneven coating, finger prints no matter how hard I tried to avoid them, etc. Just a bad deal all around. I got that coat done and it came out garishly shiny and looked like a horribly applied varnish job. I showed my wife and she could see I was disappointed, and why. So I sanded down the finish coat with medium steel wool and put another coat of oil on and wiped it clean. By this time the stain was starting to lighten up considerably. One more coat and I thought I was done, but then I Pledged the stock and some very shiny areas still hadn't been knocked down. So one MORE coat and that's where it is at now.

 

The other mistake I made was not putting the recoil pad on until after the stock was done. I ordered up the pad from Midway USA and watched this video on how to install it:

I wasn't about to buy a $45 dollar fixture to get the butt pad just right, so I eyeballed it on my sanding disk/belt combo and I think it came out passable. What I SHOULD HAVE DONE was put the butt pad on first, then finished sanding the stock. Before I saw the video (which was after the stock was basically done) I had no idea that I would be sanding the butt pad to shape. As it is if you look close you can see the butt pad doesn't match the end of the stock exactly, and the stock tapers down just a little right before the pad. That's a testament to my crappy woodworking skills. I also had a hard time getting the hard plastic and rubber part of the pads to sand down evenly on the angled section on the bottom of the stock, so there is a little bump there.

 

All in all I'm pretty excited about shooting it. I'm going to see how accurate it is like this, and then if I want more I will consider glass bedding the action. It's a bit weird on this action because there is only one bolt holding it in and it engages into about 2 threads in the bottom of the action. That's how it was designed though and it seemed to shoot pretty well before.

 

I think it came out damn good for a guy who has never really worked with wood at all. I liked the finish and color before I put that stupid finish coat on better, but I guess you can't take it back, and this is still a lot better looking than the very yellow original stock in my opinion. If the buttpad thing really bothers me I can always sand it smooth and redo the finish if I do the glass bedding job.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jt1]

Very Nice. I like the color, and the satin looks much better than gloss IMO.

 

Seems like only two threads of engagement is not good. Is that how it's supposed to be?

 

John

[JMortensen]

Seems like only two threads of engagement is not good. Is that how it's supposed to be?

Surprisingly, yes. That's why I hesitated on doing the glass. The action is really not tied down very well at all. I originally had ideas about tapping another hole in the back of the action, but the bolt is right and the metal is machined down to ~.020" thick, so there isn't room. Not sure what else can be done. At this point I'm thinking if I want a super accurate .22 I might just build up my 10/22 or buy one that is all done up.

[cockerstar]

Wow, that finish is almost identical to the one on my bassoon!

You should see how much deeper and redder it gets under full stage lighting

[NCchris]

Nice job John, those little rifles can be really accurate. On the other hand, I added a match barrel, Tasco 2-7 power airgun scope, pillar bedded the action screw with an aluminum bushing, and glass bedded the rear of the action. It will shoot into one hole at 50 yards if I do my job. One thing with .22's, they can be real finicky about which ammo they like. Remington has a standard velocity target load in a 100 pack that shoots real good in my .22's. I'm planning on doing my trigger next on my 10-22. The trigger on your bolt gun should be pretty good stock.

[JMortensen]

Nice job John, those little rifles can be really accurate. On the other hand, I added a match barrel, Tasco 2-7 power airgun scope, pillar bedded the action screw with an aluminum bushing, and glass bedded the rear of the action. It will shoot into one hole at 50 yards if I do my job. One thing with .22's, they can be real finicky about which ammo they like. Remington has a standard velocity target load in a 100 pack that shoots real good in my .22's. I'm planning on doing my trigger next on my 10-22. The trigger on your bolt gun should be pretty good stock.

What kind of gun are we talking about? Sounds nice.

 

I was reading some on .22 ammo and specifically about not getting the high velocity stuff for 50 yd target shooting since it breaks the sound barrier and then slows through it again before it hits the target which causes turbulence. So for target like you say they were suggesting standard velocity.

 

The trigger on mine is a bit heavy but crisp. Probably a 4 lb pull I'd guess. I'm going to try and deal with the heavy pull, which I don't think will be too hard because it really doesn't have any creep at all.

 

The other thing I'm looking at now is the 24" barrel. Reading more online has convinced me that about 16" or so is better for velocity and maybe even accuracy too, so the question now is do I hack the end of the barrel off? I think I need to shoot this thing and decide whether it is worth all the hassle first though...

[NCchris]

What kind of gun are we talking about? Sounds nice.

 

Woops, I was talking about my 10-22. There is a lot of aftermarket for the Ruger. A quality match bull barrel can be had from a lot of manufacturers. Drop in triggers, all manner of plastic, wood and composite stocks are available. They are kinda like the civic of the 22's.

[kiwi303]

but unlike hondas, they'll actually perform

 

for an EASY 10/22 mod, just buy a fully worked Volquartson. carbon fibre wrap barrel, set trigger, the works

[NCchris]

for an EASY 10/22 mod, just buy a fully worked Volquartson. carbon fibre wrap barrel, set trigger, the works

 

Yeah, he does nice work. Not inexpensive though! Another easy is to send your 10/22 action to Clark Custom. He along with Volquartson were the early innovators in the super accurate bull barrel design for the 10/22. A fat barrel, Hogue overmolded stock, and a little trigger rework makes a nice little rifle.

 

John, be carefull, guns and shooting is another slippery slope just waiting to suck you in. The 5 shot one hole group is a similar challenge to a better track time, better ET etc. just not as expensive. Scratch that last remark, I've got (so far) approx $1500 bux in my .223 AR with more stuff on the build list......

[JMortensen]

I've been shooting since I was 5 (note the length on the original stock). I'm long past being sucked in, although I guess I'm getting sucked in "again". I used to reload and all that. When I start thinking about buying another reloading press, then I'll be scared. So far so good...

[grumpyvette]

The main thing you need to understand when bedding a rifle action is WHAT you’re trying to accomplish and why and how some things are done to reach the goal.

The main goal is insuring CONSISTANCY; the idea is to lock the action firmly into the stock without inducing stress to the action that will change, the way the barrel vibrates as it changes temperature.

Generally you’ll want to provide a totally solid foundation, in the stock for the action to bed against that exactly matches the lower receiver’s contours, a section of threaded brass tubing cut slightly shorter than the locking bolts, recessed length and placed in the bolt holes and epoxy, mixed with aluminum dust, as a sub structure works really effectively provided the are its attached to is rough and porous enough for it to get an excellent grip, in place, holding the action in place , and insuring consistent, and easily repeatable action location in the stock.

Ive generally found the action and the first 3 inches of barrel being epoxied supported in the stock is a good idea

http://www.brownells.com/

 

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/catsearch.aspx?k=bedding%20kit&ps=10&si=True

 

Sells good bedding kits and release agents

Waxing the metal parts then coating them with both a single thickness of masking tape and a release agent will tend to prevent epoxies from bonding where it’s not wanted

A cross bolt behind the recoil lug(s) can be epoxy glued into the stock on the higher recoil level calibers as an extra precaution, a common mistake is not removing a bit of stuck surface and finish under the action and barrel to allow sufficient thickness of the epoxy to have the required strength, and there’s no reason not to use threaded bolt or rods acting like REBAR in concrete in that epoxy bedding foundation in a few cases where extra strength may be required, for example on my 458 LOTT there’s a forward recoil lug, about 5" forward of the action on the barrel, a channel in the stock about 4 inches long and 5/8" wide and 1/3rd of an inch deep was machined and two 1/4" thread rod sections covered with epoxy were installed to back up that recoil lug, and two action length sections were welded to a cross bar and epoxied into the area under and to the sides of the action, behind the main action recoil lug, plus a cross bar bolt just below to prevent the stock from splitting.

all obviously not necessary on low recoil level rifles, but on a 458 win or 458 Lott the additional work prevents problems

 

http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/bedding.html

 

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithing/ST_bedarifle_200904/index3.html

 

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/bedding.html

Edited May 15, 2009 by grumpyvette

[jt1]

Why does it not surprise me at all that Grumpy owns a 458 Lott?

 

John

[grumpyvette]

sometimes you just want, and need a 550 grain slug pushed to 1900fps,-2000fps

it makes it a no contest deal when you go too knock water filled milk jugs off fence posts at 200 yards, or punching holes in 20" tree stumps, and we all know how important that can be in daily life!!

besides its fun to watch guys who have never shot anyhing larger than a 30/30 try to hold back the tears when they have no clue how to properly hold and shoot a stopping rifle and refuse to take your offer of instruction because

"THEY HAVE BEEN HUNTING ALL THIER LIVES AND KNOW HOW TO SHOOT" two minutes instruction in proper use of a sling and how to hold a powerful rifle makes a HUGE difference in the recoil they get slamed with, held properly the whole upper body moves with the guns recoil, held incorrectly and its like trying to stop a sledge hammer with your shoulder,

Edited May 15, 2009 by grumpyvette

[JMortensen]

sometimes you just want, and need a 550 grain slug pushed to 1900fps,-2000fps

it makes it a no contest deal when you go too knock water filled milk jugs off fence posts at 200 yards, and we all know how important that can be in daily life!!

besides its fun to watch guys who have never shot anyhing larger than a 30/30 try to hold back the tears when they have no clue how to properly hold and shoot a stopping rifle and refuse to take your offer of instruction because

"THEY HAVE BEEN HUNTING ALL THIER LIVES AND KNOW HOW TO SHOOT" two minutes instruction in proper use of a sling and how to hold a powerful rifle makes a HUGE difference in the recoil they get slamed with, held properly the whole upper body moves with the guns recoil, held incorrectly and its like trying to stop a sledge hammer with your shoulder,

Man that's too much gun for me. Get up above .30/06 and I start getting a little sensitive to the recoil. I'm curious as to the instruction on how to deal with more though. I was taught to hold the rifle TIGHT to the shoulder, not sure what else there is to be done. Would you like to share some insight Grumpy?

[grumpyvette]

Only a MASOCHIST would shoot a rifle like that with out a serious military style sling wrapped firmly in a spiral around their left forearm arm ,the left hand gripping the stock forearm with the sling attachment behind the forward hand with the sling held between the forearm and hand with a firm grip with the hand extended taking up all slack , sling goes behind the left elbow and stretched snuggly across the chest,and a firm grip on both hands with the sling stetched tight enought across the chest that the whole upper body is pushed as recoil tries to draw the sling rearward or without a shooting vest with a serious recoil absorbing pad on their shoulder sewn into the vest

 

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00094330110

 

hard to explain, easy to demonstrate, this allows the arms and chest to absorb most of the energy not the right shoulder

Edited May 15, 2009 by grumpyvette