weight distribution & FWD cars

[Guest John Adkins]

Hey guys,

I've been talking to some Integra owners and they say that the Integra Type R is "one of the best handling cars in the world." But how can this be if these front-wheel drive cars have about 64%/36% front/rear weight distribution?

 

When I tell people how I'm gathering parts to put a V8 in my 240Z they say I will make it front-heavy and destroy its weight distribution... But I don't think I could make the weight distribution on the Z as bad as an 64%/36% FWD car (except if used a big block mounted non-setback style).

 

So do the laws of physics not apply to Integras?

[Guest kc6wfs]

I'm no expert with fwd's but I think the higher f/r weight ratio handling can be offset because the torque is in the front wheels keeping it from pushing. Not to say it won't push but it would be a lot worse if the same f/r ratio was in a rear drive car.

 

Any other input on this??

 

Dave Booth

 

 

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www.geocities.com/kc6wfs/240z.html

[Guest Anonymous]

I'd say the Type 'R' guys need to calm down. The must have never driven a good handling RWD car. I don't recall the Acura being rated by anyone as 'The best handling car' (unless its like "The best handling front wheel drive car"). This is not to say the guys racing them don't have them sorted out, but stock? Gimme a break. They need to drive that rear wheel drive Honduh sports car (the S2000?) and then talk about how well they're acura handles. IMHO.

 

Lone

[Guest pauli]

from what i've been able to gather, the type r guys are only slightly more mature than the rest of the integra guys (who are the same as the civic guys...) ok, now that i've got a sweeping stereotype in place, back to the actual question

 

all else equal, a front drive car will tend to understeer, and a rear drive car will tend to oversteer.

 

this can be corrected for with suspension design, but in the end, here is what you have to deal with on a track or the street:

 

in a rear drive car, say you're going around a turn. car goes into understeer. you stomp on the gas, the rear end catches up to the front, and you're ok. now say you go into oversteer. lay off the wheel a bit, and you should get back in your line.

 

now do the same in a front drive car. the oversteer situation is easy to handle (which is the only safety advantage of fwd that i've found, btw): stomp on the gas. the understeer situation, however... what are you going to do in a turn at speed, turn the wheel more and hit the brakes, hoping the rear will catch up before the front wheels break loose?

 

(put this situation on ice. the results are left to the reader )

 

or for a more straight forward answer: if fwd is so great, how come there's not a single dedicated race car (to my knowledge) that's only spinning the front wheels?

[John Scott]

One of my favorite "set ups" is to have a front drive rice rocket chasing me into an off or on ramp, then really accelerate through the corner. Mine has a pretty poor suspension, but never fails to smoke the RR. Ever seen a high powered fwd car try to punch it in a corner? The front loses traction and the resulting undrsteer puts them off the road! Fwd had come a long way, but will never match a rwd, especially in really high hp/wt vehicles.

Most of the V8 conversions end up with a much superior weight distribution than even the straight six., nearly 50/50. A V6 placed like mine will put you in at 48/52. The integras might be good handlers, but how many indy, formula, you name it are fwd? NONE! Even the awd is second rate to the rwd except in wet road conditions.

JS

[Guest Anonymous]

Heh, yeah the wife had a Del Sol Vtec for a while, phenominal revs, fast top speed, but gas it in a slick corner, or even from a dead stop and you'll think the Z's bumpsteer is childs play. Get it in wet pavement and you get all sorts of squirrely. They're good commuters, family cars, perhaps ok slogging through slow speed snow (a supposed virtue of FWD) and maybe even some laid back cannon running, but, gimme RWD anyday if I am moving at high speed and want to be in control of my destiny. At least maybe I can hang the rear end out into the tree and not understeer the front right into it.

 

 

Lone

[Guest Anonymous]

People are morons. They equate traction with how much weight is on the wheels!

Ever backed a FWD car up a hill when it wouldn't go up forwards?

Indy and F1 rules dictate RWD, so that's really not a valid argument.

People like to think that they have the best stuff around, let them think that, then go smoke them and ask why their fwd POS is so slow

 

 

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Morgan

http://z31.com/~morgan/s30

http://carfiche.com

[DavyZ]

I work at a car dealership and most of our FWD cars are equipped with traction control that can be disabled with the touch of a button. Once you do that, accelerating in inclement weather or around corners becomes a no fun proposition. Our AWD cars do very well in all conditions, wet or dry, but are not perceptively different in the dry, even at the limit (perhaps they are underpowered--oh! silly me, I'm in the HybridZ forum!) When we take RWD cars in trade, especially V8 and V6 powered cars there is a BIG difference between the two!!!

 

RWD is the most fun, and a big V8 makes it that much better.

 

Today an aquaintance gave me a ride in his Ferrari Mondial--it was quick and handled well (revved to kingdom come too) but it doesn't hold a candle to a V8 powered Z. The sex appeal of the prancing horse may be greater, but the fun factor of a hybrid Z can't be beat!

[TimZ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pauli:

now do the same in a front drive car. the oversteer situation is easy to handle (which is the only safety advantage of fwd that i've found, btw): stomp on the gas. the understeer situation, however... what are you going to do in a turn at speed, turn the wheel more and hit the brakes, hoping the rear will catch up before the front wheels break loose?

 

(put this situation on ice. the results are left to the reader

)

 

or for a more straight forward answer: if fwd is so great, how come there's not a single dedicated race car (to my knowledge) that's only spinning the front wheels?

---

 

Okay... - at the risk of being burned at the stake for heresy, I will have to disagree (a little)...

 

First off, for dry road performance, I totally agree with everything that's been said so far, and I'm sure that the Integra guys were talking about dry road performance when they said that (most of them probably don't have the balls to try anything else ).

 

However, for racing on deformable surfaces (i.e., gravel, packed snow, etc.) you will be very hard pressed to beat a FWD car, except with AWD. In these conditions, the inherent understeer makes the FWD car much more predictable/manageable, and advanced driving techniques, like left foot braking or the 'Scandinavian Flick' pretty much negate the understeer problem.

 

I had the opportunity to try both at the Bridgestone Winter driving school, and there is no question as to which is faster in this scenario.

 

Because of this, I would guess that you would be hard pressed to find any competitive RWD-only vehicles competing in Pro Rally today.

 

All this suits me just fine, since I'm not even interested in subjecting my Z to snow or gravel - that seems like a perfectly good use for a FWD car to me .

 

Anyway, just wanted to add an opposing viewpoint of sorts - we were starting to sound as one-sided as the Integra guys, and I wouldn't want that...NEVER underestimate the enemy.

 

Okay - flame away...

[blueovalz]

My V8 Z has a jack tube running laterally from left to right side spaced exactly half way between the axles. With the car setting on these tubes (bar through tube sitting on stands)I can bounce the car onto either axle with only a few pounds of pressure. But I have the battery in back, and 45lbs less in the front than stock due to the engine swap. In other words with no driver weight, my car in particular, is exactly 50/50.

 

Terry

[Guest John Adkins]

The only cars that I have spun 180 degrees on icy roads are front wheel drives (my Subaru in 2wd mode and my mom's Olds Omega) both in the same situation that pauli describes....

I guess I was trying to drive the FWDs like a RWD car. So when people say that FWD drives are better on ice,I say yes, from a dead stop you have more traction, but once you are moving...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by pauli:

all else equal, a front drive car will tend to understeer, and a rear drive car will tend to oversteer.

 

this can be corrected for with suspension design, but in the end, here is what you have to deal with on a track or the street:

 

in a rear drive car, say you're going around a turn. car goes into understeer. you stomp on the gas, the rear end catches up to the front, and you're ok. now say you go into oversteer. lay off the wheel a bit, and you should get back in your line.

 

now do the same in a front drive car. the oversteer situation is easy to handle (which is the only safety advantage of fwd that i've found, btw): stomp on the gas. the understeer situation, however... what are you going to do in a turn at speed, turn the wheel more and hit the brakes, hoping the rear will catch up before the front wheels break loose?

 

(put this situation on ice. the results are left to the reader

)

 

---

[John Scott]

So if any of you plan to race on ice and snow, off road baja, wet tracks, then the AWD will have the upper hand. The AWDs are incredible on the Pikes peak hill climb! I prefer dry pavement. I'll gladly accept defeat in the other conditions. I don't race on wet pavement either. Won't take it up a jeep trail either An AWD Talon or Syclone can smoke just about anything in the stoplight wars.

 

F1 and Indy are pulling some serious Gs weather its mandated or not. If they mandated fwd you'd see the speeds decline.

 

[This message has been edited by John Scott (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Guest pauli]

that's a good point about rally cars. it's a shame they can't take a CORR pro-4 truck out to a rally race

 

i personally think rwd or awd make for better loose condition racing than fwd, but that's probably just cause i like power oversteer

 

hmm... with all that extra room in a v8z engine bay, think a front drive axle could fit? a 4wd/awd z would be a bit nose heavy, but would be so much fun in snow... toss an arb air locker in the back and the weight would balance (car would weigh >3000lbs, but hey), and you could drive through anything (as long as you had ground clearance for it).

 

you know, it just occured to me that you could take a 4x4 truck, and through selective use of the transfer case and disconnecting the rear driveshaft, you could compare all three setups. very nose heavy, though...

 

anyway, rwd has one major practical benefit over fwd: the engine bay. you're not likely to find any front driver with as much room as a z

[Guest Anonymous]

Hmmm, a Z with Quatro underpinnings? Then on the other hand just import a Skyline GT-R, 4wd and 4ws. I'm out, too rich for my blood.

 

Lone

[Guest Anonymous]

John,

 

Ross is totally right. Even with a stock chevy 350 with cast iron everything, you'll have a better weight distribution than any FWD car. The weight distribution from the stock datsun to the chevy won't be noticable because of the set back of the engine. Besides, your accelleration out of one corner to the next will be so great, it'll far outweight any reduced cornering speed (which I doubt you'll see anyway). Thats the HUGE advantage of V8's in general, is they're very forgiving to drive and less work because of the torque, as you are less dependant on the car being in the right gear than a smaller displacement peakier engine. To high a gear out of a corner in a V8 Z, no problem, put your foot down and by the time you notice it, you'll be plasted to the back of your seat. Oh well, rambling as usual, good luck with your project.

 

Lone

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Adkins:

Hey guys,

<snip>

When I tell people how I'm gathering parts to put a V8 in my 240Z they say I will make it front-heavy and destroy its weight distribution... But I don't think I could make the weight distribution on the Z as bad as an 64%/36% FWD car (except if used a big block mounted non-setback style).

---

 

John, don't sweat it. You're at the right place here where hybridz owners tell you the facts and not guesses. Their's a good number of cars here with fine weight distributions. My daily driver '80 280ZX 350 sbc w/ 7/8's fuel and me in the seat is 50.0/50.0 in 'autox/roadrace' form (no spare tire or extra crap in the car). It costs a bit of money to really change it from my initial 52/48 or so to 50/50 but things you can do when you have the funds like an optima batt/alum. rad/alum heads etc......nothing you HAVE to do initially if funds aren't their.

 

They won't even be near you so don't sweat it. I was at a roadracing event and a large honday contingent showed up from Vancouver. The 2 most highly modified cars with a lot of dough into their Honda's weren't even close, just annoying (they got blackflagged;^).

 

Enjoy your plans and the car will put a grin on you:-)

 

 

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Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

[DavyZ]

Lone is correct in saying that with the added power coming out of a corner won't matter anyway because you'll be so far ahead!

 

Car Craft did an article on their Mean Street Chevelle that they took autocrossing. Even though the car did NOT have a special suspension package, the 600hp and low profile tires were more than enough to stomp every Honduh--it was almost laughable, and that's with a BIG, heavy car! Think what a light car like a Z with a better suspension set-up and a mild V8 could do! Yeah Baby!!!!

[johnc]

Ahhhhhh, the old RWD vs. FWD argument...

 

With FWD hondas turning 8's in the 1/4 mile after only 10 years of serious development (the most extreeme example of drivetrain layout supposedly hurting performance), I would think that most folks would understand that drivetrain layout can be compensated for with good suspension tuning.

 

A FWD and a RWD car can both be made to handle equally well on dry pavement as long as horsepower is kept below about 300. Using F1, IRL, CART, NASCAR, etc as justification for the superiority of RWD is a false argument becuase all series have very strict rules requiring RWD (and in some cases banning AWD and FWD). The most valid comparison would be the old British, European, and Australian Touring Car Championships where FWD Hondas, Saabs, Holdens, etc. won a number of races and championships against RWD BMWs, Opels, Volvos, etc.

 

The supposed superiority of RWD comes into play when horsepower levels get high enough to seriously affect tire temperatures. Current racing slicks have trouble coping with tire temps over about 250F degrees. A high horsepower FWD car will easily overheat the front tires under hard cornering and acceleration. Braking is not an issue because both FWD and RWD transfer 80+% of the vehicle weight to the front tires.

 

I do know of a research project using a very sophisticated traction control system that will allow a FWD road race car avoid overheating the front tires while putting out 600+ horsepower. I have no idea of the results of the testing so far, but it makes one think...

 

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John Coffey

johnc@betamotorsports.com

 

BTW... My daily driver is a Ford Contour SVT, probably one of the best handling FWD cars ever sold.

 

[This message has been edited by johnc (edited January 02, 2001).]

[Guest Anonymous]

John,

 

I respectfully have to agree to disagree in a few places of this discussion.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnc:

Ahhhhhh, the old RWD vs. FWD argument...

 

With FWD hondas turning 8's in the 1/4 mile after only 10 years of serious development (the most extreeme example of drivetrain layout supposedly hurting performance), I would think that most folks would understand that drivetrain layout can be compensated for with good suspension tuning.

---

 

This really isn't an argument thats relevent IMHO, its less about suspension tuning (although with they're lift bars and all that I won't say they are'nt innovative), but the secret to 8 sec. Honda's has more to do with traction. Place the majority of they're engine weight over the front driving tires, with sufficient power to weight ratio and voila 8 secs. No mystery really, VW drag cars have been into the 8's before, same theory applies in my view. Top fuel cars, same deal, weight near the driven wheels, turn them like crazy with large sticky tires and go fast.

 

quote:

---

A FWD and a RWD car can both be made to handle equally well on dry pavement as long as horsepower is kept below about 300. Using F1, IRL, CART, NASCAR, etc as justification for the superiority of RWD is a false argument becuase all series have very strict rules requiring RWD (and in some cases banning AWD and FWD). The most valid comparison would be the old British, European, and Australian Touring Car Championships where FWD Hondas, Saabs, Holdens, etc. won a number of races and championships against RWD BMWs, Opels, Volvos, etc..

---

 

The touring car championships have some really excellent drivers, and all playing fields level, I agree with you that power levels play a big role in the parity in this form of racing. At this level, the superiority of one layout versus another is pretty much a wash, with raw driver talent being perhaps the difference from one brand to another winning. But then again, these are not stock automobiles exactly which is where the discussion started.(and quickly deteriorated.. ) Showroom stock, I think a BMW could still easily hold its own against a Type R Honda driver skill being equal. That last bit is certainly a arguable opinion.

 

As I say, I guess we agree to disagree, and it is one of those, arguments probably like politics and anything else that won't be settled here, thats for sure.

 

Respectfully,

 

Lone

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by lonehdrider (edited January 02, 2001).]

[johnc]

>... the superiority of one layout versus

> another is pretty much a wash, with raw

> driver talent being perhaps the difference

> from one brand to another winning.

 

Exactly! Put Mika or Schuie in a Type R and me in a 328i and I'll be lapped in 10 minutes!

 

 

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John Coffey

johnc@betamotorsports.com