The great debate: 1jzgte or 7mgte?!

[jp.goody98]

Second the above.

 

I use to be a soup guy. Either of the three are fatastic platforms for up to 500 horse.

 

Its entirley up to the owner which you prefer.

 

Ive rode in both the 1j and 7m.

 

My personal vote goes to 7m due to the low end grunt and I love there sound. It makes the driving experience more enjoyable in the grand scheme of things.....more scoot with less RPM's. 400 horse and a awesome power curve is my ideal Z though. So the 7m us just my 0.2. Oh yeah, and they are still dirt cheap to come by JDM. Ha.

 

I'd like to make two points regaurding what was already said.

 

7M Headgasket issues where caused by a VERY low factory tourqe setting,,,,and the gasket itself secondly.

And that is a very far off second. Many get by just fine with re-tourquing the factory HG tighter unless they are after big power as the upgrade to a MHG must be done right to seal.

 

Secondly ALL three L6 toyota's mentioned are famous for being very hard to kill. More so on the 1/2j than the 7m. I believe anything at or above the 500hp mark the 7m's "should" be ballanced, they ARE a older design and a longer stroke. But mostly for 500 horse and below, don't touch it if it aint broke. I can't tell you how many times I've read about "rebuilt" bottom ends runing back into the same trouble shortly after and on the same exact surface. Toyota's factory tollerences(bearing) and quality is fantastic. Most damages occure due to lack of oil or det if anything.

[majik16106]

Most damages occure due to lack of oil or det if anything.

 

My hero. I wasnt going to attack everything wrong in this thread. but this does need to be addressed.

the problem with 7m bottom ends is not the bearings, clevite does sell bearing with a deeper oil channel (read: Race version)which can help. The problem on 7ms, especially road raced ones, is oil starvation. there are several ways to fix this, anything ranging from boring out the pump to going dry-sump. the HG, i would suggest getting a proper machine shop to deck the block and put in MHG and arp studs, will save you a headache later no matter what route you decide to go and it aint that tough to do in the grand scheme of things.

 

Second: Turbos. Everyone in this thread keeps kicking out t62, s653, blah blah blah blah. stop. Best way to talk about turbo sizing is by size, not name. sure some common ones might be ok, but 80% of the time someone who is not well versed in every companies offerings will have to look up each name to figure out what turbo is what. just a pet peeve of mine. sorry. So ill list by a common size. Every turbo has lots of things that can be changed, inducer/exducer wheels, etc. So ill list them by gen mm size which how companies usually break up their offerings.

 

So, as far as suggestion, keep in mind what you want this car to do. Because some advice will be irrelevant. not to pick at anyone but people get all caught up in these arguments and start to stray from what it is YOU want and into general arguments about engines. so...

 

If you want a daily driven 300whp car. - Go 7m. lots of low end grunt and a ct26 (stock turbo) with a .57 trim wheel upgrade will work GREAT. lots of spool. lots of torque. off the shelf parts without cross consulting, cheaper engine and build, easier wiring ( IE you can run the stock ECU if u want), super reliable.

 

If you want an 800hp drag car - go 2jz with a 71mm or bigger turbo. if you have the money to build a 800rwhp car and race it, you can do this. do it.

 

If you want to go road racing - if your heart isnt set on a 6cyl, do an SR. easy swap, awesome handling. if you are set on a 6 cyl and you are on a budget, go either 1j or 7m, which one? depends on your driving style. If you like winding it out and want to worry less about the back end sliding out then go 1jz with 57-63mm turbo. lots of spool. lots of revs and smoother boost in. if you like grunt and squat out of a corner, go 7m with same sized turbos mentioned about.

 

When you get into 67mm and above, your starting to get into highway/drag racing for the most part, ESPECIALLY considering this is in a Z. if it was a supra a 67mm would be ok because of the extra weight.. but if you have never driven a 500rwhp 2500lb ish car.. its not easy, especially to do fast.

 

My suggestion: dont get all caught up in the arguments and hype surrounding engines and cars and the crazy **** you see. Figure out what you want your car to do first, like exactly, then plan the build according. Once you figure out what you want you will know what to ignore and what to look for. just my .02

Edited May 12, 2010 by majik16106

[Kurai]

I decided on just getting a 2JZ...really had nothing to do with one engine really being better but came down to cost really I have a old 7M and a 1JZ but both would need to be restored so after doing some pricing around I saw that for the same or more I can get a 2JZ that is ready to go.

 

but you are right....what IK have wanted to do with this car has been changing like the wind the more I learn which I kinda expected. My goal for the car is to make it a weekend driver / occasional track car. I want it to have a decent ride when in normal driving conditions yet be fast top end wise on the open road....still thinking 500+ but dont want it to have a really long spool, or have a very harsh engagement once the power kicks in..or if it does in the slightly high RPM range without completely leaving no powerband to enjoy.

 

Tall order i know think ill probably end up sacrificing the track peppinessto get what i want.

[majik16106]

I decided on just getting a 2JZ...really had nothing to do with one engine really being better but came down to cost really I have a old 7M and a 1JZ but both would need to be restored so after doing some pricing around I saw that for the same or more I can get a 2JZ that is ready to go.

 

but you are right....what IK have wanted to do with this car has been changing like the wind the more I learn which I kinda expected. My goal for the car is to make it a weekend driver / occasional track car. I want it to have a decent ride when in normal driving conditions yet be fast top end wise on the open road....still thinking 500+ but dont want it to have a really long spool, or have a very harsh engagement once the power kicks in..or if it does in the slightly high RPM range without completely leaving no powerband to enjoy.

 

Tall order i know think ill probably end up sacrificing the track peppinessto get what i want.

 

I still think 500rwhp in this Z is more than you expect. if you want the "harshness". 300rwhp in these cars can turn 11s. thats what 500rwhp vettes run. ish depending on other mods. if you gear a 3.70 and 500rwhp with a 2jz, which is a 63ish mm turbo. its gonna punch the back out. slicks or not. you will be able to do 70mph burnouts on drag radials. pretty easy. i dont know what you mean by "track car". road racing? auto x? drag? cuz you wont be able to give it much gas out of a turn, or down most of a straight without going sideways considering you want normal decent driving conditions. tall order is more correct than you probably think. just giving you a heads up. Regardless, good luck with the project. sounds fun! toyota powered Zs are my fave obviously.

[Kurai]

Yeah was ref more to the circuit....its hard to call cuz I def want to go with a 2JZ...so I think ima take it in steps....first just get use to the L26 in it now and how the car "feels" then drop in a stock twin turbo 2JZ and feel that out for awhile and if I think i want more I can either do the big single.....or go with a upgraded twin setup that uses two GT28s So ill take it slow. If i wasnt a hardcore Toyota lover id just beast up the L26 and this and that and call it good.

[karl]

If you want to go circuit racing or auto cross on occasion you might want to take into account the weight of the 2jz setup at a hefty 746lb vs approx. 510lb for the l28, 640lb 7mgte, 645lb 1jz all weights are with transmissions. If straight line speed is your need then 2jz is indeed the steed hahaha. That's 230 lbs more on the nose of a very light weight car, traction will be a huge problem. My 70 240 7mgte with approx. 400whp is a hand full on public roads, that's why I dial the boost down to 10lbs when driving around town. Good luck with your build.

[Scottie-GNZ]

.....you might want to take into account the weight of the 2jz setup at a hefty 746lb........

Boy, the Internet needs to put the 2JZ on a diet as it seems to gaining weight on a regular basis

[badjuju]

I still think arguing about this crap is silly... You'll be happy with whatever you do.

Edited November 4, 2010 by badjuju

[ShaggyZ]

My hero. I wasnt going to attack everything wrong in this thread. but this does need to be addressed.

the problem with 7m bottom ends is not the bearings, clevite does sell bearing with a deeper oil channel (read: Race version)which can help. The problem on 7ms, especially road raced ones, is oil starvation. there are several ways to fix this, anything ranging from boring out the pump to going dry-sump. the HG, i would suggest getting a proper machine shop to deck the block and put in MHG and arp studs, will save you a headache later no matter what route you decide to go and it aint that tough to do in the grand scheme of things.

 

Second: Turbos. Everyone in this thread keeps kicking out t62, s653, blah blah blah blah. stop. Best way to talk about turbo sizing is by size, not name. sure some common ones might be ok, but 80% of the time someone who is not well versed in every companies offerings will have to look up each name to figure out what turbo is what. just a pet peeve of mine. sorry. So ill list by a common size. Every turbo has lots of things that can be changed, inducer/exducer wheels, etc. So ill list them by gen mm size which how companies usually break up their offerings.

 

So, as far as suggestion, keep in mind what you want this car to do. Because some advice will be irrelevant. not to pick at anyone but people get all caught up in these arguments and start to stray from what it is YOU want and into general arguments about engines. so...

 

If you want a daily driven 300whp car. - Go 7m. lots of low end grunt and a ct26 (stock turbo) with a .57 trim wheel upgrade will work GREAT. lots of spool. lots of torque. off the shelf parts without cross consulting, cheaper engine and build, easier wiring ( IE you can run the stock ECU if u want), super reliable.

 

If you want an 800hp drag car - go 2jz with a 71mm or bigger turbo. if you have the money to build a 800rwhp car and race it, you can do this. do it.

 

If you want to go road racing - if your heart isnt set on a 6cyl, do an SR. easy swap, awesome handling. if you are set on a 6 cyl and you are on a budget, go either 1j or 7m, which one? depends on your driving style. If you like winding it out and want to worry less about the back end sliding out then go 1jz with 57-63mm turbo. lots of spool. lots of revs and smoother boost in. if you like grunt and squat out of a corner, go 7m with same sized turbos mentioned about.

 

When you get into 67mm and above, your starting to get into highway/drag racing for the most part, ESPECIALLY considering this is in a Z. if it was a supra a 67mm would be ok because of the extra weight.. but if you have never driven a 500rwhp 2500lb ish car.. its not easy, especially to do fast.

 

My suggestion: dont get all caught up in the arguments and hype surrounding engines and cars and the crazy **** you see. Figure out what you want your car to do first, like exactly, then plan the build according. Once you figure out what you want you will know what to ignore and what to look for. just my .02

That all sounds good. Obviously, it's your opinion but I mostly agree with it. As far as the 2JZ is concerned, I think it's worth mentioning and has been before, that the weight is negligible in comparison to the L28ET largely because the 2JZ will likely be set much further back than the stock arrangement. The car will theoretically still be very well balanced, which I understand to be much more important than overall weight.

 

I'm still struggling between 2JZGTE and L28ET even though the 2JZ is already sitting in my engine bay (need to build mounts, which are my real hangup). The L28 will do exactly what I need it to but I've seen too many stories of blown transmissions and piston issues with the L28 at ~300HP; I wanna set it and forget it and, if tuned right, the 2JZ in stock form and the stock R154 will do exactly that nearly forever.

 

EDIT: and just found the following quote in a build thread. I'm not sure what exactly the included items were in each weigh-in; maybe he had bumpers at first and not now or what.

 

Oh Ya just so everyone know the car weighed 2610lbs with the L28 in it. Now it weighs 2698 with the 2jz in it. The extra weight is not completely over the front wheels tho, but is now a little front end heavy. By relocation the battery to the back It should take care of that.

Edited November 29, 2010 by ShaggyZ

[nthiogen]

A 500whp Z is not a "weekend driver/occasional track car." It is, in my opinion, a "useless for ANYTHING but drag racing" car.

You will need to reinforce the s**t out of your chassis, because you seem to be forgetting that you are putting well over 4 times more power into it than it was designed to handle. Expect to pay in excess of 5k for that level of preparation unless you want to twist the chassis and tear the driveline to pieces. You should put in your 1JZ STOCK and just get it running first. If it's not enough for you as is, go from there.

 

It doesn't seem like you understand how a car with 500hp that weighs less than 3,000 pounds made out of sh--ty paper-thin steel 40 years ago (that's likely rusting in a few places) with no power steering, brakes, or ANYTHING-- is going to act.

 

No offense intended, but there is a LOT more to consider than you seem to be aware of.

[Kurai]

Actually I have considered all of that but didnt think it would be really relevant to start posting about suspension, chassis, bakes etc etc in a engine thread....but yes all that has been considered and planned for already. Information im hunting down now is more about the wiring then anything.

 

Also just because I want the car to have 500whp doesnt mean ill be running around everyday at 500whp I ust want that potential to be there if I call on it...same reason I choose the 2J. If one day I want to go more power I can or less for that matter with minimum amount of modification. Also is my reasoning behind going for the larger higher spooling turbos, I would like one that begins spooling hard about mid rpm band so that there is less chance of losing control on public roads unless I mean to get into boost. Since on the road course etc you are usually high in the rpm band through most of the gears there will be little need for a really fast spooling turbo in my opinion.

[piston]

I agree with kurai. 500hp does not mean its gonna be use in every corner. Don't let anyone talk you into keeping lower hp's. Build what you want! Heres a couple of sites i found on 2jz wiring if you are still searching for wiring info. I foundit very useful for me when i did my ecu pinout delete.

 

http://www.celicasupra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41954

 

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm

 

The wiring is actually easier than it sounds. I knocked out 40% of my harness and it looks neat.

Edited March 10, 2011 by piston

[Kurai]

I agree with kurai. 500hp does not mean its gonna be use in every corner. Don't let anyone talk you into keeping lower hp's. Build what you want! Heres a couple of sites i found on 2jz wiring if you are still searching for wiring info. I foundit very useful for me when i did my ecu pinout delete.

 

http://www.celicasupra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41954

 

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm

 

The wiring is actually easier than it sounds. I knocked out 40% of my harness and it looks neat.

 

 

Thanks man..Been some time since I have been on here I have been trying very hard to be patient and complete the build as I have planned starting with all the chassis reinforcements. Having a guy come out tomorrow actually and inspect everything. Will probably end up getting some parts from Bad Dog and having some work done no matter what the condition and also have been thinking of experimenting with Handi-foam. Have been hearing alot of mixed things about it but think it shows some promise

 

Far as the power I still plan on doing a bigger single setup but will "learn" the car in the stock configuration 2j whatever first then add from there. Hoping to hear good news tomorrow and get her reinforced and painted in the next 2 months.

[2JZ260z]

I currently daily drive a 260z with a 2JZ in stock form, and haven't even built an exhaust yet. Probably running 2.25 exhaust, with DP Cat, another shittier honda cat, resonator, and muffer. I'll tell you right now, that even with GOOD sticky tires and a damn good driver, this car is a handful even with stock twins. I may be putting down....250ish wheel right now, and its insane. Sure, build a car with 500 HP, but if you accidently fall into the boost range on a rainy day, thats going to be all she wrote lol. I'd say go the route I'm going. I'm going to keep it stock, boost it to 16-18 lb's, build a nice exhaust, and pickup an LSD and call it a day. Should be more than enough.

[260DET]

......................

 

Also just because I want the car to have 500whp doesnt mean ill be running around everyday at 500whp I ust want that potential to be there if I call on it...same reason I choose the 2J. If one day I want to go more power I can or less for that matter with minimum amount of modification. Also is my reasoning behind going for the larger higher spooling turbos, I would like one that begins spooling hard about mid rpm band so that there is less chance of losing control on public roads unless I mean to get into boost. Since on the road course etc you are usually high in the rpm band through most of the gears there will be little need for a really fast spooling turbo in my opinion.

 

Yeh, I do road course and the last thing you want is the sort of turbo setup you are talking about. What you need with standard gearbox ratios is a useable power band of about 3000rpm, mine is 4 to 7000rpm. By that I mean the engine will have come onto decent boost well before 4000rpm and be able to maintain the power curve through to 7. So for a three liter engine say a GTRX3582 which should give you excellent and controllable corner exit acceleration. It's all about staying on the track and not spinning the car around everytime you put your foot down.

 

My Z has a real 420whp but to make it driveable on the street it can be switched to a more traffic friendly map. Otherwise it smokes the tyres up something stupid.

[Kurai]

Yeh, I do road course and the last thing you want is the sort of turbo setup you are talking about. What you need with standard gearbox ratios is a useable power band of about 3000rpm, mine is 4 to 7000rpm. By that I mean the engine will have come onto decent boost well before 4000rpm and be able to maintain the power curve through to 7. So for a three liter engine say a GTRX3582 which should give you excellent and controllable corner exit acceleration. It's all about staying on the track and not spinning the car around everytime you put your foot down.

 

My Z has a real 420whp but to make it driveable on the street it can be switched to a more traffic friendly map. Otherwise it smokes the tyres up something stupid.

 

Thank you this is the kind of information I need to know Thanks again that GTRX3582 just made the list lol

 

Do you guys know if there is anyone out there that makes a complete kit used on a 2JZ?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Kurai