Tim240z Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Just received this e-mail from Dave at AZ Z.: "To my valued z car customers: Due to a substantial increase in the number of mechanical parts we are manufacturing (and shipping) I have decided to discontinue the production of fiberglass parts at this time. with the amount of time it was taking to pack and ship the 'glass it has become no longer feasable for us to do it. all of the molds (hundreds?) are for sale. I will keep your e-mail on file so I can forward it to anyone who should buy the molds. thanks for your interest in our parts. Sincerely, Dave" I am going to ask around at some of the 'glass' shops here in LA, CA to see if they want to take over Anyone got any ideas? Tim [ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: Tim240Z ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Sorry to have to say this ... but it's about time! Maybe now people will be able to buy the fiberglass parts they want, and not have to worry about $1000 min, or a grumpy Dave! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Just a thought, perhaps MSA or VR Engineering would be interested in the molds. Isn't VR in Arizona too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Well several of us knew this was looming in the distance (For almost a year now). In his defense (But not taking uo for his less than professional attitude with customers) It is a royal pain to box up and ship out products. One big issue with shipping large fiberglass is that there is almost 100% guarantee that there will be some sort of damage from the shipper. Dealing with the packaging, then the shipping, then the claims that will follow, then the cranking customer that didn't read the fine print on parts needing to be installed and finished by a body shop... I personally don't blame him for getting out of it. What is sad is that he hasn't been selling much anyway over the last 4 years for those reasons. Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 I'd love to hear John Washington (of Velo Rossa fame) on the topic of PROPERLY crating 'glass parts for shipment. In my estimation, if someone is going to spend thousands on a body kit, they should be willing to spend a few hundred to have the supplier build WOODEN crates to ship the stuff in. Even for a fender, I'd think spending a bit on a good wooden crate would be worthwhile. John, how do you ship your kits, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank Rich Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 That's a shame - but not much of a surprise. I'd sure like to have the mold for the twin turbo hood. Hmmm. "Lead me not into Temptation, I'm getting there just fine on my own!" Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Ummm Pete - my hood from John came in a carboard box We also had a bit of a time getting reasonable shipping rates. The prices John is being given are a tad high - Mustang hoods from Cervini ship fo rmuch less. If you're buying a $300 part and shipping is $150 it does make you stop and pause.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 My four fenders, and a few verious parts, came from John in a cardboard box, lots of paper, no wood. The fenders were kind of interlocked, (hard to explain). The box was not much larger than one fender. Frankly, when everything was out of the box it was difficult to see how he got it all in there. ZERO damage. I think John has found better shippers. I thought my shipping charges were reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 I understand that it's a pain in the ass, and would understand completely, IF he had been selling the stuff as a hobby, which he apparently was not. That's just part of the cost of doing business, IMHO. I've always felt that if he thought it was 'too much trouble' to actually deliver the stuff he's selling, he should get the hell out of the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank Rich Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 For what its worth, I exchanged e-mails with Dave last night, and here is the list of molds he has for sale: Fiberglass molds: 280Z IMSA Body Ferrari 250 GTO Body kit Zisisit Body kit(sort of Ferrari 308 style) GTUZ body Camel GT body Roadrace Front Fenders Roadrace Rear Clip Tilt Frontend 1pc GT Front Bumper GT Rear Bumper Small bumpers Front & Rear Sideskirts -Z Sideskirts-ZX 4Pc. Solid Headlight Buckets Stock Headlight Bucket Pantera Deck-Z Pantera Deck-ZX Stock reardeck-Z Stock Door-Z Race Door-Z ZX Door for IMSA Stock Fenders Stock Quarter Stock Hood Louvered Hood Twin Turbo hood-Z Twin Turbo hood-ZX Cowl Induction hood 2 Styles Fiberglass Dashboards Modified Headlight Buckets Solid Headlight Cover 935 Whaletail Flat Whaletail 1pc Rear Spoiler 3pc Rear Spoiler 3pc Modified Spoiler 3pc Large Spoiler Airdams for Z & ZX(5?) 4pc Street Fender Flairs Large box Flare(rear) Chin Spoiler Modified Rear quarters(big) Corvette style tailpanel Convertable Z Rear Deck Porsche Wide Body kit with 1pc Frontend for Porsche 911 He also wrote that there are "some" cars that go with these molds - I'm assuming these are "wearing" some of the parts made from some of the molds - I need to get some clarification from him on that point. In addition, Dave said that he has "...hundreds of current requests" for f'glass parts in hand, and will direct all those potential customers to the buyer of his molds, even adding a link to his web site to direct customers to the new owner's web site, if appropriate. The Bottom Line? He wants $25K for everything. Having spent a few years working f'glass and cf/kevlar, I have to say that if these molds are in any kind of shape at all, if they're not warped or had too many parts pulled from them without "refreshing" the surfaces and checking the dimensions for stretch or shrinkage, then that is a very good price! Plus there is the potential for a ready-made customer base! Its just a tad more than I had in mind spending, however, so I'm going to see if he will sell a few of them separately, and go from there! Any comments, ideas, potential partners ? "Lead me not into Temptation, I'm getting there just fine on my own!" Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Washington Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Hello to all! To paraphrase an old saying, "it doesn't matter if they are talking good about you or bad about you...as long as they are talking about you." Seriously, though, I appreciate all the comments WRT this issue. The recent thread about the cost of making molds was very accurate and amusing to follow. Why? Because I have been trying for years to make people understand why fiberglass costs what it does. I am very glad to see you guys going through the exercise of "costing out" the process...and I admire your enthusiasm and initiative for doing it on your own. I really didn't do as much costing as I should have when I got started. Like a lot of people who get into business, (especially in this industry) I was a "car guy" first and being a businessman wasn't part of my game plan. After doing it for over a decade, getting married, getting older, and realizing that piddling around wasn't going to cut it anymore, I have forced myself to be more business like. However, I've tried not to do so at the expense of customer service Ok, enough of that (sorry about the digression); on to the topic at hand. Shipping fiberglass IS a pain in the ass. Trying to ship it for a resonable price is a bigger one. Trying to properly package it for shipping at a reasonable price adds even more brain damage. All these costs have to be paid by someone. If the customer expects the supplier to remain in business, then he can also expect to pay these costs...one way or another...either directly or in the form of very high prices. Side note: Just for comparison sake have any of you ever asked MSA what they charge for shipping similar items? Keep in mind that (I believe) a lot of their fiberglass stuff is already boxed. However, I am not insensitive to the cost of crating and shipping, even though the customer pays for it, for two very big reasons. 1) It is a deterrent to the purchase. There are some guys who will buy the stuff no matter what the price or the shipping cost. However, for the majority of us (I'm in the same boat myself), it is an issue. Obviously, as the seller I want to give the customer as many reasons to purchase as I can, but I also want to remove as many deterrents, too. I'm in the business of selling the parts. The more I sell the better. If I sell a lot, once in a while I can buy the wife a steak instead of feeding her peanut butter sandwiches 2) Any money you spend on shipping and crating (Which I make NOTHING on, BTW. More on that later) is money you don't have available to spend buying parts from me. The downside of shipping fiberglass is that it occupies a lot of volume. This means that you need big boxes and that they can't be shipped via UPS. Motor freight is the only practical alternative, and on items that occupy a lot of volume they charge for "dimensional weight," which is a fancy way of saying they are charging you for the volume rather than weight. You can't blame the carrier, as the trucks are made to carry a certain amount of weight. When you ship something very large that doesn't weigh much (and therefore is mostly air) you displace other revenue generating cargo (i.e., heavy stuff) from the truck. WRT the boxes: When you ship small items (e.g., mechanical parts for cars) you can simply purchase boxes at a reasonable price from any packaging supplier. I don't have that luxury. For big stuff you have to have boxes made. This costs a lot of money, but the setup costs more. In the amount of volume that I ship (two or three kits a month if I'm lucky...you can see why I'm not getting rich) it doesn't make sense to have this done and suffer the big hit on setup charge or the inventory cost of stocking (ordering AND storing) a bunch of huge boxes. For a while, I was making my own boxes. It took probably twenty or thirty hours to get "proficient" at it. I say that in quotes because it is still a huge pain in the ass. Fortunately, I have made a couple of serendipitous discoveries that help me as well as the customer. First, I am now scrounging bumper cover cartons from the local body shops (which explains why your box may say "Porsche" or "Subaru" on the side). Most of my fender kits will fit in these pretty nicely if I take the time to organize and nest the parts properly (an artform unto itself, I might add). If a hood is included I sometimes have to do it differently or ship it separately. Pete, these boxes hold up very well to the rigors of motor freight, provided you don't put too much weight in them, and you pad the contents properly so the parts don't poke or rub holes in the box. You also don't want the parts to rub each other. Even though the boxes now only cost me an occasional six pack, I still have costs and have to charge a nominal crating fee for the time required to go get them, wear and tear on the company vehicle (87 Toyota pickup...I told you I am not getting rich ), and the brain damage of solving the packing puzzle. I also have to purchase and maintain tape guns, tape, banding tools, and banding materials. Remember, even though this is your hobby, it is the way I feed myself. I have to make money commensurate to the time I expend...that's the way we all get paid at our jobs. That notwithstanding, the cost is a lot less than it would be otherwise. On the really big stuff (a complete VR kit for example) I still use a professional crating service to build wooden crates. I pass the cost along to the customer with no markup. This is in spite of the fact that I have to supervise the crating and ultimately spend almost as much of my time in the process as the crating guys. Before you ask: Yes I have tried to build the wooden crates myself, and no, I cannot do it any more economically than they can. On the shipping: If from the above discussion you now have the idea that crating is a pain, you should try to ship the stuff! It's not much an issue on the smaller items (hoods, fender kits) but on a VR crate where the whole thing is 3x6x7 feet high and weighs three hundred pounds, how do you get it in the back of the truck? You have to have a forklift which has to be fed (cost of purchase, fuel, maintenance...just got through replacing the fuel pump at the cost of four man-hours and a couple hundred bucks). I no longer have to shop all the carriers, fill out a bunch of BS paperwork, etc, thanks to my second discovery: Freightquote.com. Given origin, destination and the nature of the item to be shipped, they give you quotes via their website that allow you to pick the best price for the speed of shipping that you desire. This has cut the shipping cost in half! Well, if any of you are thinking about buying Dave's molds, I have just given away two very valuable secrets about the business. However, it is worth it to spread the understanding about how things work. Of course, like the old saying: "Just because I taught you everything you know doesn't mean I taught you everything I know!" I think one or more of you should buy the tooling from him...and you should buy my molds, too! Seriously, I have said many times in the past that someone should gather up all the Z car tooling they can find and become "THE Z car fiberglass guy." I know where a lot more of it is and would be happy to discuss offline putting together some deals. With a wide selection of parts and kits a single-source business employing a small number of full time people (my biggest limitation is my fundamental desire to not have employees) could not only do well financially, it could also keep the costs down for all the rest of us! To answer Jerry's question: I don't think I would be interested in purchasing the stuff myself. I'm pretty much running at my maximum capacity with the products that I am currently selling. Dave has a lot of stuff, but the price is higher than I would pay even if I were interested. It has been a long time since I have seen his molds (and a long time since I have even spoken with him), but some of it was not in great shape. Were I a prospective buyer I would make sure that the purchase would be contingent upon each mold's ability to produce good parts. Maybe you pay up front for the having a part produced and if they are good you have your first part to photograph, advertise, and sell. If not, make Dave deduct your cost (and the cost of the no good mold) from the package price. Plus, there is a lot of value in the molds, and potentially the business he could send your way. However, the molds and the customers amount to only half half the equation. The other half is the "corporate knowledge" required to make and deliver the parts. From the above discussion of one little piece of the pie, you can see that there is a lot more to it. It doesn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to envision that you won't get much help from Dave in this area. However, if you got my stuff too.... Frank suggested that perhaps Dave would sell individual molds. One thing Dave is (God love him) : astute. There is value in each mold separately, but there is more value in all of them together than as separate items. I don't think you will get far with that idea. Well, I'd better sign off now and get back to work. The wife wants a nice dinner tonight (and she's earned it) so I need to make some money! Thanks to all for the opportunity to share some insight. I hope I haven't offended anyone with the volume or the contents. As always, I don't have a lot of time to follow the message boards, but will be happy to discuss anything offline or respond via post if someone will let me know that I need to! JW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 John, You've not only NOT offended me, but I thank you kindly for all the insight! Please do post here - I think it's very valuable to have a successful Z body kit maker post here! I for one think you've given way more than you needed to in the two posts by you recently. And I hope you get some business out of it too! I met you at the Atlanta Convention back in 1995 and I was impressed with your demeanor and willingness to answer questions - I wasn't looking for a kit (although I'd love to do one someday), but just asking questions about how you strengthened the unibody, etc. I was glad to meet you then, and I'm glad you've joined us at HybridZ! Please come by as often as you can and join in. Many Thanks, [ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 I'd like to echo pete's statements. Thanks for posting John! I learned a heck of a lot from those posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 quote: I'd like to echo pete's statements. Thanks for posting John Ditto on Drax & Pete! As an aside, those bumper boxes are great I packed up a 510 BRE decklid & 2 fiberglass fenders in one and had room for a mini cooper left over I can only guess at your packing efforts knowing they have to take a LOT of time and EFFORT. I'm sure your customers appreciate no extra abnormal 'packing' fees as I've seen that as a cost of business that should be included in the parts. Dave's complaints were all unneccessary 'whines', noone forced him into that business. One alternative for shipping large items can be by airfreight which on occasion has worked out quite well economically for myself with some body parts, when both seller and buyer were near major airports with decent connections. Perhaps your items are too dimensionally large that the costs get quite high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 John brings up several great points. My own concern with those molds is the volume of product produced from each as well. I also heard that many of those molds are not in the best of shape. Having bought fender flares from MSA, I can speak to the ill effects of change on a mold... my right side flare in the rear sits about an inch higher from the top of the tire, than does the left side. This was in the mold, not the mounting of the flare. Also, as John has pointed out, and as I have found myself, packaging and mailing parts can be VERY expensive, not just in materials either. It takes a lot of time to sit down and box up 5 sets of control arms... tagging disclaimers to each product, including written disclaimer info in the box, wrapping the product, boxing it and then getting it to the shipper... not to mention locating the right size boxes... I'd bet that you could get the molds from Dave for less than the above mentioned price, but I'd still be very concerned about the condition the molds are in. I hope someone les expensive than MSA buys the molds, and I'd agree, one large "Super Vendor" would be great! Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Heh, I for one really appreciate the information guys. Fiberglass and especially CF parts are BIG interest of mine. I'm not so much looking to make big flares or a hood but little things and the more I learn about it the better! Time, unfortunatly, is my big enemy. I think that whoever ends up with the AZ molds should be someone experienced in this sort of production and who can check out the molds. I don't think this is something for a novice. He's got a bunch of parts that I think would be really neat to have but his prices and attitude have always kept me away. John on the other hand has an attitude I like - hence the purchase of my hood. Yeah, shipping was higher than I liked and I've seen lower for similiar pieces but it sounds like he's licked that problem. So far as packing, wood or cardboard makes no difference to me so long as it arrives intact or with little damage. In my case it showed up in great shape - I've got pics of the packaging on my WEB site for just this reason I too like the idea of one big vendor. Some of my worries though are how this vendor would make it. These molds and whatnot must take up a good bit of space and the business itself would consume room too. That all costs money! It would almost have to be done out West where room is cheaper, around here the rent would eat you alive... I'd also like to say that I'm sensitive to the fact that folks like John, MikeSCCA, and others sell these things as part of a way to put food on the table. There are times when I know I could probably puzzle out what one of these guys is doing and maybe source the part myself for a little less - I don't often try. If enough of us did that there would be any little vendors left around or anyone doing much research. It's one thing when MSA finds some little weatherstriping company and doubles their price to sell to me, it's quite another when I pump someone for enough info to duplicate their setup without spending the hours junkyard hunting +trial and error that they did. Doing that isn't fair IMO. The fact that John and others spend tme here and elsewhere explaining things is great - an if they get more sales because of it then that's even better! So, thank you John for taking some time here and thank you to others who share what they've learned even if they aren't putting foo on the table with it. I appreciate the time that everyone takes to contribute because if I had to learn it all myself I'd not even try - too many other things going on including my own quest to put food on the table Please John, feel free to contribute and come back often. I think I speak for many of us when I say your insight is appreciated a great deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Actually I'll have to disagree with you Jim on the point of location... I've done my homework there, and in Spotsylvania County (In Virginia. where I live) I can rent a shop in an industrial park around the corner from my house with a lift already installed for $475 per month for the unit + buying the lift outright for $1300(1400 Square ft.) and figure another $625 per month for utilities, phone and computer connection. Now all thats left is insurance, employees, and supplies/materials. However, making ends meet with orders for such a small group of buyers is the gamble. I'd love to see this superstore located on the east coast. It would certainly help pump some more life into the east coast scene. Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Washington Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Ok, can't resist. One more for the day. As far as location of the molds and the production work, if you contract the lamination (as I do), it really doesn't matter where it's done. I know several people who use contract fiberglass manufacturers as far as several states away from the person who is selling the parts. Both the shops I use are located here in Phoenix, but if you are going to do this big time as a "super vendor", I would look seriously at remote outsourcing options. Naturally I could help with this and have some inside information, but would rather not discuss it online (have to keep SOME secrets). You can get the parts produced at a substantial savings due primarily to economies of scale WRT purchasing raw materials in bulk. If you can get your vendor up to speed with regard to lamination schedules (the "recipe book" knowledge used to lay up the parts encompassing number of layers, type of fabric, etc.) you can have the vendor drop ship directly to the customer. Mike, I think you really want to get into the business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 You know John, by the end of the day you aren't going to have any secrets left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 I got a Porsche box! Does that make me special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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