high comp. turbo setup detonation?

[Tony D]

That was my parts list of the car, on my notepad, In stead of editing it, since I do not have much time on the computer always I just copy and paste it. I know half that suff has nothing to do with the tune. Im not an idiot.

 

Nobody said you were, leave that out. You're becoming defensive and it's counterproductive. This is in your head, and temper the response to leave out your perception of what someone is saying. I didn't take that from the post---that you did is an indicator of your exasperation and admitted inexperience with the situation at hand. Nobody likes not knowing, but it takes someone willing to be humble and keep quiet during the indignity of saying 'I don't know, help me please'---in this regard, 'Im not an idiot' comments are a fail.

 

My wastegate has a 17lb spring. I was planning on buying a 10lb spring. then tuning the car.. is that not possible?

 

From what TimZ said, the 17 psig spring/10psi run is not possible. This is a VERY strang contention to make. Normally the wastegate spring is the LOWEST pressure you can run, and (like Tim Z said) there are devices to let it run HIGHER. Not the other way around. INVESTIGATION ON THIS is required. My suspicion is that you already have a 10 psig spring in there, FOOLED to run 17psi, but only set to run at 10, and the EMS tuned to that level.

 

When I bought the car, the guy said the car is at 10psi and has a 17lb spring for when its ready to be tuned to 20psi like he planned. That is what I am telling you, what I know.

 

Then you need to know more. This was addressed above several times, and is going round-and-round. Stop parroting the same stuff over and over and put some effort forth from someone who sold it to you as to what EXACTLY it is that you have. Failing that, YOU will have to tear into stuff and figure out what you have. Simply repeating it ad nauseaum will get us nowhere.

 

As I said, I canot tune a haltech and never have gotten into that area of the car. As you can see I am still learning.

 

And this is why Carjay's suggestion to take it somewhere and have it tuned likely is the QUICKEST, CHEAPEST, AND SAFEST alternative at this point. There is plenty of time to learn, but not while tuning an engine above 10psi of boost. Things go bang. Quickly.

 

And now, I am not like that. Me and mostly by good friend rebuilt the engine. Now I need to do the timing and haltech. Thats all, and Im not worried about him blowing my engine, hes a good friend of my brothers I just havent worked with him on my car before wich is why I mentioned what he said including the GT30r being to big along with the 550cc injectors for a flat top n42 block. wich is why I was curious to ask people who to me are professionals with these cars.

 

You SHOULD be worried about blowing the engine. It WILL happen if you get the parameters wrong. Not 'might', not 'could', WILL happen! Your dismissive comment of 'do the timing and haltech' belies a great dearth of respect for the immense task of knowledge needed to successfully accomplish this. Someone offering you a base map is worth HOURS if not DAYS of street driving, and at least 1 hour on the Dyno in time saved, not to mention the possibility of a blown engine at any point in the process.

 

 

And ya Zmanco, Im just trying to do this the right way, and so I dont need to keep doing this over an over.. I am running a NA cam, with a regular fel pro head gasket, I wish I used a thicker head gasket.. Its a NA cam with n42 flat top, p90head, with arp hardware.

 

If nothing is offered, the questions remain. We are a persistent bunch, but if someone asks you what time it is, and you say 'orange' as a response....did you really answer the question? I see this happening here.

[Tony D]

the car previous owner tuned it to 10lbs, but it has a 17lb spring, thats all I know.. Im gonna get a new tune tho.. however since the spring is 17, I get boost creep, the boost keep rising so I have to let off at 10lbs by reading my wideband.

 

To put it succintly, and to cut down all the trees in the way of you seeing the forest you are looking for:

 

THAT IS NOT 'BOOST CREEP' THAT IS A 17PSI SPRING ACTING LIKE IT SHOULD!

(this is exactly what I said in my first post about 'someone having a 17psig spring but giving up tuning at 10psi'---what you have is a 17psi setup time bomb of an untuned machine above 10psi set to run at 17psi. If you keep your foot in it, what happens? If the answer is not 'stays at 10psi and then sloooowly rises a bit near redline' you don't have Boost Creep, you have a wastegate set at 17psi!

 

This is what TimZ, as well as I, and several others have mentioned FROM THE START.

 

The answers are there, but if you won't read them or take the time to comprehend what is being said to you, and hold fast to what you were 'told' then help will not 'help' at all!

[Zmanco]

And ya Zmanco, Im just trying to do this the right way, and so I dont need to keep doing this over an over.. I am running a NA cam, with a regular fel pro head gasket, I wish I used a thicker head gasket.. Its a NA cam with n42 flat top, p90head, with arp hardware.

If this was my car I'd spend the money to put a 2 mm HG in. Last time I looked they were around $200. With an 8.9:1 CR, open chamber N42 head and a NA cam you're going to have to retard the timing a lot to avoid detonation which will leave a lot of power on the table. If you're paying someone to tune, do it with the engine configuration that you're going to live with for some time.

 

FYI, you can leave the intake and exhaust manifolds attached to the head and lift it all off the block with an engine hoist. Just lift it enough to clean the coolant out of the cylinders and clean the head and block deck before reassembling. I'll guess you can get this done in 2-3 hours tops. With the parts you have and a CR in the low 8.x range, you should be able to get a good tune that is reliable, safe, and makes really good power too.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Zmanco

[Tony D]

I'd consider that detonation concerns are more aptly due to a 17psi boost level and incomplete fuel/timing map only going to 10psi. It's unclear if the setup in question ever really ran on a dished top configuration at all without detonation...

 

Going after the compression ratio is merely a band=aid to an untuned EMS and a wastegate with no possibility of controlling boost to 10psi in the first place.

 

This sounds like an old Turbo Corvair with an opened up intake: keep your foot in it and boot kept rising, and about 17psi that thing would rattle itself to death! Put the stock carb back on (the 60's Wastegate, via inlet and exhaust restriction) and everything was fine again.

 

I'd worry more about getting proper boost control FIRST, before tuning OR thinking about head gasket issues. It does not sound like boost control is functional on this machine AT ALL right now, and no matter WHAT head gasket you have on it, or what EMS tune you have, if the boost is unrestricted, IT WILL BLOW!

[TimZ]

Man - talk about putting a finer point on something...

 

Thanks Tony - that saved me a LOT of typing. Perhaps "Wiki D" should be "Tenacious D" - does Jack Black have it Copyrighted?

[Tony D]

Am I being accused of NOT participating in a verbose response?

Pshaw, man! Loquaciousness is my stock in trade! Rant on I say, rant on!

[280zbeeT]

You are right about a lot of things. A lot of things to respond to which I cannot do all at once right now.

 

 

But yes, the boost keeps continuing to the rise and rise.. But I thought I could just buy a smalled spring?? Will that not fix the situation? if not then what Im suppose to buy a totally new waste gate?

 

and as I said, right now I am running a NA cam, p90block, n42 flat tops. The previous setup was Exactly the same only difference was I had dished pistons n42 block, which I blew the ringlands on..

 

I cant find the post about fuel and spark?

[Zmanco]

But yes, the boost keeps continuing to the rise and rise.. But I thought I could just buy a smalled spring?? Will that not fix the situation? if not then what Im suppose to buy a totally new waste gate?

Several of us are really trying to help you, but you're not giving us much to work with. For example, you've told us that the WG has a 17# spring which is on the high side for an untuned engine, and you also say that the boost continues to rise and rise. DOES IT RISE ABOVE 17 PSI? If you think about it, that's kind of essential to know in order to answer your question.

 

If NO, then put a 7-8 psi spring in and tune it get a base before you damage it again. If it's going above 17, then you could have any number of issues.

 

BTW, most ECUs for turbos have an overboost protection function that will cut fuel and/or spark when it goes above a certain level to protect the engine. I run Megasquirt, not Haltech so don't know for sure in your case, but that's one thing I'd be getting set up before I did much else.

 

Again, we're not mind readers - we only know what you tell us - so please use a little common sense to make sure you're including the relevant things.

[woldson]

Gotta get me one of them there p90blocks, hook a fella up?

[woldson]

Double post.

Edited July 30, 2010 by woldson

[woldson]

Humor or insult. Only you can choose, only you.

[Tony D]

"The previous setup was Exactly the same only difference was I had dished pistons n42 block, which I blew the ringlands on.."

 

Well, another tidbit of knowledge gleaned by The Extractor: THe other system didn't run without detonation, either.

 

You need, as has been said from the beginning, a lower pressure spring in the wastegate. Or another wastegate. JeffP runs a 3psi spring in his. You can make a 3psi spring run 17 psi, you can not make a 17 psi spring run 3 psi.

 

As far as 'running above 17psi' that's really irrelevant. If it's doing more than 10psi, the engine will blow based on 'tuned to 10psi' referenced earlier.

[TimZ]

But yes, the boost keeps continuing to the rise and rise.. But I thought I could just buy a smalled spring?? Will that not fix the situation? if not then what Im suppose to buy a totally new waste gate?

 

and as I said, right now I am running a NA cam, p90block, n42 flat tops. The previous setup was Exactly the same only difference was I had dished pistons n42 block, which I blew the ringlands on

 

Okay, to be fair, I think your first question here got overlooked. Yes you should get a lower pressure spring.

 

However, as Tony just mentioned, the fact that your ring lands failed with dished pistons before doesn't bode well for the higher compression setup. It is probably the case that the 10psi tune with the 17lb spring ate your first setup. As Tony mentioned, it would be a better idea to start with a very low pressure spring and then tune for higher pressures as you are sure the lower ranges are dialed in.

[280zbeeT]

Ive never taken the boost over 14 (the first day I got the car I did unaware), the boost continues to rise on my wideband and would stop I imagine at 17psi because of the 17psi spring in the wastegate, basically I have been keeping an eye on my wide band and when it gets to 10psi, I let off the throttle.. So yes I need to get a smaller spring for the wastegate. When I bought the car, the guy said keep an eye on the wide band the haltech was tuned to 10psi, but it has a 17psi spring in the wastegate so keep and eye and dont let boost go higher then 10psi.. only thing I thought he had said 14psi, for whatever reason that is.. This is where I think most of the confusion started..

So that was my plan, to buy a smaller spring, and get the car tuned again..

Edited July 30, 2010 by 280zbeeT

[Challenger]

Alright your wideband will show air fuel ratios not boost. A wideband is an O2 sensor, not a boost gauge. He probably meant 14 on the wideband NOT 14 psi. If it stayed lower than 14 that means you were likely running close to stoich or a little rich which is alot better than lean.

 

I'm just going to be strait forward. Before you do ANY work on this car you really really need to learn more about your car. For your own sake you need to sit down for a few weeks and read, read, read. Understand what every part on your engine does first, you need to know that at the least.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Challenger

[CarJway]

280zbeeT,

 

Lets cut straight to the chase here... You NEED to do the following to get this car running, or if you want to ever drive this car... The thread should stop here, unless you can verify the following:

1. Get your timing chain timing correct; I read in another post you said that your timing is off.

2. Make sure the timing for your Dizzy is correct. (clocked correctly) This is completely different than your timing chain...

3. GO, get a lighter spring for your Wastegate. I don't know what you have, or I would give you a direct link of what you need

4. Dig into this car and find out how the Haltech is being triggered. I don't even think the Z31 dizzy will fit. Take a picture of the dizzy. I have also mentioned to you before, send me your base map. I also mentioned tell me exactly what color wires are going into your dizzy. I have been around Haltechs for quite some time...

 

I believe a few others are with me on this one, this thread is going no where. We are all what "if'ing" here. Verify the items above, and we will help you to get your car running. Also, at this point, stop worrying about your engine setup if the car doesn't even run. Once we get this car running, then lets jump back onto the TUNING precautions, DUE to a higher compression ratio. At the moment, your tune would pop FORGED pistons. I can't stress this enough, that you need to take this to someone who knows how to tune. Let me rephrase; once this is running, we can all re-comment on what pointers/limitations your tuner should take to make this safe.

 

Again, I am just trying to help here, but we need to get definite answers here... You need to start from scratch, and stop telling us what "He" said. Imagine that dude moved to Antarctica. Open up the wastegate, and figure out if it truly has a 17# spring in it. I am starting to doubt it doesn't, since your watching boost, on a Wideband which measures air/fuel ratio.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Carjway

[Tony D]

"Ive never taken the boost over 14 (the first day I got the car I did unaware), the boost continues to rise on my wideband and would stop I imagine at 17psi because of the 17psi spring in the wastegate, basically I have been keeping an eye on my wide band and when it gets to 10psi, I let off the throttle.. "

 

You don't have a wastegate. You have a foot. Your foot is FAR too slow to stop damage.

You will kill things driving it like this, and will continue to do so. This is NOT how a wastegate works, your foot is not the boost control device (unless it's the winter of 1964 and you're in that new 1963 Turbo Spyder driving in it's second Michigan winter when you hit a bump and the muffler falls off. WOW what a SURGE OF POWER! This is GREAT! I'm going to drive it around all the time like this! Waitaminit, what's that noise? How the hell did the crankcase to head studs pull out like that? Is this warranty Mr. Goodwrench?)

 

Seriously, for the list of things you have on the car, you are running 1950's technology boost control.

[280zbeeT]

I have a Zetronics, It has AFR, EGT, Boost, Lambda.

 

And Im not sure what you mean tony, I dont drive it like that every second I have the car. Its my daily driver, I dont abuse it.

 

Carjway yea I agree, Im going to get you the maps, but I havent hooked up the laptop yet, I need to get on that.. but I figure I would wait till I get the car started, Ill try to do that this week then..

 

And yes Im gonna get a lighter spring, I need to look into what type, its currently a 17psi spring, so I thought just to buy a 10psi spring or maybe smaller? We put a 6psi spring in there in fact I think I have it, but I had this weird noise coming when the boost peeked and I let off the throttle kind of like loose air or something like that..

[Tony D]

"And Im not sure what you mean tony, I dont drive it like that every second I have the car. Its my daily driver, I dont abuse it. "

 

I would disagree. You are driving a turbocharged vehicle with no boost control, by your own admission. You are literally driving a first-generation turbocharged vehicle akin to a 1963 Corvair! Your foot determines boost as the wastegate is for all intents and purposes not controlling anything.

 

With the sophisticated systems you have on the car, their downfall is they go 'linear' usually at the end of a map. That means you add slightly more fuel as boost rises, which isn't enough. If you burned up the first motor, and are now on the second that's abuse.

 

I have run my flat-top N42/N42 since 1985 up to 21psi (and 17 as a daily driver). When my wastegate malfunctioned, I didn't drive it. Some people will say 'oh, I'll just keep my foot out of it while the wastegate is broken/nonfunctional.

 

Some people think playing russion roulette like in the Deer Hunter is good sport as well.

 

You will kill another engine driving the car like this. It doesn't need to go to 14psi to break, it can do it at 8psi. I have seen N/A engines detonate when they run lean and wreck.

 

It's just that underboost, you have absolutely no margin. It's your money, do what you want, but I view your driving the car into boost AT ALL as abuse. You can't possibly react as fast as a wastegate can. You have admitted it yourself with the 'boost creep' comment.

 

This discussion really has gone nowhere. You really need to read and comprehend the things that have been written here regarding what YOU need to do (not on your car, either!) because if that isn't changed, you will be blowing whatever you assemble.

 

Word to the wise on that one.

[280zbeeT]

Ahh yea I understand tony.. okay, I get it now.. Well good thing I havent even started this engine up yet! lol. And also the engine that came with the car was already blown before I got it, I just made it much worse.. It smoked very little at first, after a month or so it was Horrible.. heh. But yes, I know I have a alot to do, so do you agree with carjway as far as what I need to do? Or what would you do with it if you had your knowledge and the setup was yours?

 

I dont know if anyone is in the san diego to LA area who can tune haltechs.. would you tony? thanks again buddy.