Is my oil pump dead?

[Lazeum]

I refer to it as "Mortensen-proofing" a post.

 

Seems I have to do that more and more these days. Or simply keep it to myself. I'm fine with that, I don't need to argue about it.

 

<Edit> Not to imply in any way any links between any section of a prior post, or paragrapghs within a previous post, sentences within a post, or even trains of thought within a post and this post whatoever, your mileage may vary depending on driving conditions and many other factors including but not limited to day of the week, lunar cycle, tides, astrological alignment, phase rotational EMF contamination, ELF transmission interference, amalgam fillings, or consequential similarities to actual persons living or dead.<Edit>

 

I can read your post 10 times. I still don't get it...

What do you mean?

[bjhines]

Lazeum, I have had the same damage to oil pumps as you have there. For a car that sees track and autocross I would consider replaceing the pump yearly or whenever your pressure drops significantly when hot.

[didier]

I refer to it as "Mortensen-proofing" a post.

 

 

Seems I have to do that more and more these days. Or simply keep it to myself. I'm fine with that, I don't need to argue about it.

 

 

<Edit> Not to imply in any way any links between any section of a prior post, or paragrapghs within a previous post, sentences within a post, or even trains of thought within a post and this post whatoever, your mileage may vary depending on driving conditions and many other factors including but not limited to day of the week, lunar cycle, tides, astrological alignment, phase rotational EMF contamination, ELF transmission interference, amalgam fillings, or consequential similarities to actual persons living or dead.<Edit>

 

Sorry, absolutely unintelligible for a foreigner ( french ) trying to be at your level . are you joking, are you angry ?

[Tony D]

didier,

It was a linear thought, in response to Braap's reply... finding humour in my statement about if only I had explained it was the middle restrictor, everybody and their brother could/would come on here and argue about it. Even now I take pains on this particular issue (oil restriction hole) to point out this incident and that it is NOT me making the statment, but a direct quotation from the guy who wrote the book and who everybody is referencing and confused about.

 

It kind of cuts down on the argument fog. In some cases. In others they will still argue. In those cases I am more and more just leaving them belive what they want and moving on. Ignorance is like an infection. Once you get it, you foster it I guess. I am content to keep my knowledge to myself. Sharing is nice, but I'm not going to beat myself up just to share information I get firsthand from very knowledgable people. You can either take my statement, or discount it.

 

This particular instance was the first time that I had an opportunity to be the FIRST guy to respond and directed someone to the source instead of ignorantly posting an answer and then arguing the counterpoints (or it was in response to several GUESSES posted or rationalized, and I got fed up and said "instead of guessing call the dude"--and then provided rudimentary contact information such as where the guy worked currently.) Some people's guesses were wrong. But how can they argue, it came from the guy himself. Somehow this shuts people down. I'll use it more in the future.

 

Braap saw it as humorous, which is the manner in which it was intended. And my reply was sort of a reply to his text-based chuckling. An afterthought commentary, if you will.

 

Now for my terrible French writing

 

Comprende voux, mon ami?

 

 

Oh, and didier, to directly answer your last post:

 

"Both"

 

Edited November 9, 2010 by Tony D

[didier]

Ah ! ah! Tony, I have some problems to understand subtleties and humoristics sentences.

 

For now, i'm reading Frank Honsowetz's book, and it's good information ,

Regards, best wishes from France,

I return to the restoration of my 260 Z 2+2,

bye bye

[Tony D]

You should have come to Spa in September...not only was it my birthday and we were testing Belgin Beers, there was a yellow Z from the UK and a grey Z from Denmark tearing up the track. The yellow Z was running in the masters series and was running times comparable to the GT350 Shelby Mustangs (2:55's!) Miroux was not there from Belgium this year. Perhaps he got nervous when we laughed as he insisted his F54 block was a 2.4 liter. Curiously they started keeping their paddock door shut after our chance encounter...

 

Though not one is a 2+2... But rest easy, we keep up the 2+2 reputation by making land speed records with our 76 2+2 at Bonneville and El Mirage. We go again this weekend (I so hope I'm home for ONE event this season!)

 

Cheers!

[Lazeum]

It might be a stupid question but when I was ready to drill the restrictor I came accross the question about "how to remove the chips afterwards from the blocck??   

 

I mean, it seems the bolck inside is not a strtaight pipe where you can blow air thru it with only one way to go out. Chips can get stuck in remaining oil, they can also go thru the tensioner oil path way for instance.

 

So I'm questionning if I should do it or not?    I might do more damage than anything else...

 

What's your opinion?

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2010 by Lazeum

[didier]

It might be a stupid question but when I was ready to drill the restrictor I came accross the question about "how to remove the chips afterwards from the blocck??   

 

I mean, it seems the bolck inside is not a strtaight pipe where you can blow air thru it with only one way to go out. Chips can get stuck in remaining oil, they can also go thru the tensioner oil path way for instance.

 

So I'm questionning if I should do it or not?    I might do more damage than anything else...

 

What's your opinion?

 

The best would be to work with your block on the bench, but i know it's still in the car,

Your pump is removed,So you should blow air pressure in the oiling funnel going to the filter ,while you drill, the chips jumping out in your face !!!

[Tony D]

connecting air pressure to he sensor hole should put direct pressure into the underside of the restrictor---this will prevent chips from entering as pressure is blowing out while you drill if the rest of the system is assembled, that's about the only way to get out easily.

[Lazeum]

Thanks Guys for the answers

 

I need a air blower then which I don't have currently but it should not be a show stopper.

 

 

[Lazeum]

Over night I also thought the best solution might be to replace the current restrictor by a new one drilled out of the engine.

I would need a new restrictor to do so. Either I buy one (if it exists... MSA?) or I can fabricate one out of brass but I do not know the dimensions (but I can guess them from the current part).

[didier]

Not a good idea, the restrictor is press fit, if you make it too loose, it will drop down , and i think it's not avalaible even in stock size.

" pourquoi faire simple , quand on peut faire compliqué"

" why make things easy, when you can make complications "

[Lazeum]

I'm aware restrictor should not get loose. My idea of the failure would be:

Restrictor loose => loss of oil pressure => Engine damage

 

On the other hand, it is a very small piece that should be quite easy to reproduce... Not sure though if I can source it somewhere.

 

For the time being, my best solution would be to leave my engine alone and start the building process. I'm still consedering however the high flow pump.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Lazeum

[BRAAP]

Matt,

Ouch, your pump has passed quite a bit of debris, explains the little flake of aluminum siting on top of the forward restrictor port and the clogged head restrictor starving the top end.

 

After what we discussed a few months back and now seeing this, I do strongly recommend completely disassembling the block and removing all oil galley plugs and restrictors for a thorough cleaning using brushes in the galleys. There are two galley plugs in the block, one at the front, one at the rear and the two restrictors on the block deck surface. Remove those so all debris that settles behind them can be removed. As we discussed previously, Rebello does remove those from the block to clean out that passage. Dave taps it just deep enough to get small screw in it and pry it out of the block.

 

Any machine shop should be able to build you new restrictors using rod stock. Just take your old restrictor to them, tell them duplicate them with the desired hole sizes, (stock hole size for the forward, the Honswetz hole size for the main feed above the oil filter. They should be able to build them for cheap, just tap it into the block. Any automotive machine shop should be able to source the galley plugs, or possibly through your Nissan dealer. I do stock those plugs,pretty sure I have the Datsun L-series in stock, too bad you aren't in the states. Another option for the block galley plugs is to drill and tap them for pipe plugs which we do on all of our performance builds.

 

 

Hope that helps,

Paul

[didier]

Hi, Mathieu

I think you MUST disasemble your engine, Mr Ruschman 's thoughts are the right way, xxxx$ spent in your head , i should want to be sure it will work.

The good process is start FROM ZERO , clean every parts, and rebuild .

in French : te fais pas chier , Mathieu, démontes tout, nettoies, et remontes !! I can help you if you want !

[Lazeum]

I'll look at your proposal Paul   

 

I post you a picture of the block. I'm not so far behind from your recommendation... and I've got everything next to the car to pull the engine out.

 

Not sure I like the way the engine is right now (but I do learn a lot on the process) but I've decided to do it right to get this trouble far far behind me in the future.

 

 

I've disassembled as well the oil pan, There was a lot of metal chips everywhere inside, some were big enough to get trap by the oil strainer (is it how we name the big stuff that suck oil from the pan??? ) but there was also a lot of shiny little particles everywhere.

Cylinder walls look perfectly fine, that's already a good point 

 

 

 

I do have a friend who already proposed his help. He owns a performance shop close to my place so finding a engine shop should be a no brainer.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Lazeum

[Tony D]

Threading that hole in the top of the block, then installing with green locktite a brass internally-hex-headed setscrew with the appropriate orifice in it makes removing it at a later date for inspection and cleaning both easy and cheap.

 

In either case, this is usually done with the block out in conjunction with all the other work being done on the engine. I don't see a way to remove the orifice currently in the block that will creats LESS chips than simply drilling the orifice with a grease-packed drill bit as it currently sits.

 

Neat idea with the setscrew, eh? Won't find that in any book-therefore it's 'hear-say' and subject to internet debate because I'm not giving my sources or providing a link. You can take it as it stands.

[BRAAP]

Threading that hole in the top of the block, then installing with green locktite a brass internally-hex-headed setscrew with the appropriate orifice in it makes removing it at a later date for inspection and cleaning both easy and cheap.

 

In either case, this is usually done with the block out in conjunction with all the other work being done on the engine. I don't see a way to remove the orifice currently in the block that will creats LESS chips than simply drilling the orifice with a grease-packed drill bit as it currently sits.

 

Neat idea with the setscrew, eh? Won't find that in any book-therefore it's 'hear-say' and subject to internet debate because I'm not giving my sources or providing a link. You can take it as it stands.

 

 

Set screw with stud-lock eh? Hmmm... Sorta like this bolt hole fix on the infmaous highprofile P90 head. Not in any Datsun how-to book, nor giving my sources or providing a link.

 

[Lazeum]

 

In either case, this is usually done with the block out in conjunction with all the other work being done on the engine. I don't see a way to remove the orifice currently in the block that will creats LESS chips than simply drilling the orifice with a grease-packed drill bit as it currently sits.

 

Neat idea with the setscrew, eh? Won't find that in any book-therefore it's 'hear-say' and subject to internet debate because I'm not giving my sources or providing a link. You can take it as it stands.

Already in china?!?  

 

 

 

 

 

The mods you're talking about are blocking the oil path in the block and reroute the oil thru hoses to the pump, aren't you?

 

I will certainly follow Paul's advice and pull the engine out of the bay. If so, mods would not be so challenging I guess.

 

 

 

 

And regarding your idea, if there isn't any source to support your 'hear-say', not sure if I should trust it! Aren't you concerned with the flow being turbulent because of the edges in the hole shape??? 

 

 

[Tony D]

China, yes.

 

Hoses, no. The small restrictor orifice in the head currently can be blocked (as shown in BRAAP's post, but that gives me another recollection...) and redrilled, but using an internally hex-headed screw of brass. This is common in some applications.

 

What Braap's post reminded me of was the old 2300CC Vegas. They had an issue where the oil gallery would crack. In that case you sleeved the galleys, plugged the head and block where the oiling gallery was, and then drilled into the galleries externally, connecting the head to the block with a loop of copper tubing. This eliminated the massive oil leak that would occur there. It would also stop the leak at the same juncture on the Nissans. On the Vega, if this cracked you rarely saw it when the engine was cold, but wondered where the hell all the oil came from (or why there was none in the sump and your engine seized...) I don't know how many of these mods I did 79-84 while working in a machine shop... VERY common for people rebuilding the all aluminum engine (during the last time gas prices doubled in 3 months...)

 

What is shown in Braap's post is actually a different way to make a threaded insert. Personally in that instance a nice Keen-Sert or Rosanne Insert would have worked for me. I don't know that I would have 'manufactured' one! But the process is similar---since you use a straight threaded (or flush-seal) plug, no need for machining flush, and you can do all your drilling to the threaded insert off the block. All you really need to do is tap the hole where the restrictor was...

 

This also makes it a 'reversible' modification. You can always pull the head and replace the restrictor with a smaller/larger size. If you plug both the head and the block, you can put the restrictor in the external feed line and change it at will (like you were doing developmental work and wanted to see the effects of oil flow on an engine dyno between various oil restriction hole sizes...while comparing what it did to main bearing/rod bearing/turbocharge oil feed pressures.) For instance, that's all...