Gollum Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Like many I'm rather sick of the old L-Gata factory EFI. I'm hoping this summer, or early fall at the latest to do SOMETHING about it finally. Local yards are now charging over $50 for any ECU out of the yard and another $50 for a MAF sensor. This makes even the Z31 ECU swap look rather expensive for what it is. So megasquirt is still on the table front and center. I really want to build my own kit as I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron and would love to see the guts of the ECU I'll be tuning (I'd love to get into EPROM burning in the future). But looking at the feature list, I'm not exactly sure what I'm getting for my money with the new MS3 daughterboard if you don't use MS3X expansion card, which is yet almost another $100 on top of the MS3 board. Other than the finer fuel resolution, SD logging, and built in USB port, what am I getting for shelling out the extra cash? Everyone tuning OEM ECU's has to use a laptop to datalog anyways, so missing the SD logging isn't a huge deal to me. So I guess what I'm considering at the moment, is getting MS2 v3.0 and setting it up to run fuel and spark (off my turbo dizzy for now). Then if I feel I need it I can still always buy the MS3 daughterboard + MS3X expansion card down the road. Does anyone here have much experience with Megasquirt lll? Care to comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockerstar Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I know it isn't necessarily as applicable here, but my roommate is in the process of installing MS3 on his swapped BMW E30. He wanted it partly for the sequential injection/spark control to maximize his fuel economy when cruising (it is all but pointless at higher RPMs if you use non-HUGE injectors), but mostly for it's ability to control peripherals. He has VANOS (BMW vvt) and is going to be controlling it by using the controls intended to trigger nitrous at a set RPM. Doesn't really play a huge roll for out Ls, but I thought it was a pretty cool application. I watched him put the kit together, and it is pretty straightforward if you've built a circuit board before. I've etched/assembled my own for engineering projects, and wouldn't think twice about doing it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm not even sure it helps with huge injectors. I have been researching that because I have 150# injectors on my 5.3. With injectors that big it doesn't really matter that you give it a fine resolution pulse, it can only open and close so fast which means you get a lot of fuel and you can't control it. It would provide the ability to time the injection pulse with valve events which may help with huge injectors, but otherwise it doesn't seem worth it. I think MS3 is for the crowd that is bored with MS2 and needs something to tweak. Like you say, it will work well for economy so that may be the bigger crowd for MS3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm getting less than 20mpg right now. Switching to MS2 and getting over 25mpg would likely pay for itself in less than 6 months! And it seems like most people are getting closer to 30mpg. I can't see any sliver of economy difference being worth doubling my investment for MS3+Ms3X. Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm going to plan on building a MS2 setup and will price things out accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Keep in mind MS3 is closed source. In that it will only work with TunerStudio, which is closed source. They also haven't released the schematics. They say this is because they are tired of people asking for help and they have Russian or Chinese knock-offs. So, it's headed down the road of propriety, which is what they wanted to avoid in the first place. But damn, it is tempting with all those features. For the L, MS2 is more than enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I did not know that. Thanks for the heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cramer Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 There are a couple details about the copyright notice that they're hammering out and then they will release the MS3 source code. The MS3 daughter card schematics are being kept under wraps, but the MS3X schematics have been released a couple months ago. We have had a bit of trouble with several European counterfeiting operations, and while that isn't a guaranteed way to stop them from making knock-offs, it may make it difficult enough they'd have an equally easy time copying something more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 But why care about them at all? Is that even the point of the secrecy, or is there something more? But a big "Yes!" for releasing the source code, that's all I really care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 For my applications I think (not sure?) I need the MS3. The VK56 is 8 coil-on-plugs, so the MS3X's 8 ignition outputs will make it much simpler to drive. I'm just getting into the whole MS thing, so I stand to be corrected. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cramer Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 But why care about them at all? Several reasons. Obviously, part of it is money. A unit sold through a counterfeiter instead of one built by Bowling & Grippo or licensed from them is money B&G and their authorized distributors won't get. And these counterfeiters I'm talking about are commercial operations, not somebody who's made a couple one-offs in his basement for personal use. Second reason is they put a drain on support that is financed by the above sales. There have been quite a few times people bought a counterfeit ECU and came to me for support, or posted on the MegaSquirt forums trying to get help they couldn't get from the original seller (which are paid for out of the Bowling & Grippo budget). Third reason is quality. There have been several very poorly done MegaSquirt ripoffs - one that comes to mind is the now defunct Fuel Injection Pro, who built a lot of ECUs for the Starion / Conquest community. Whoever laid out their board had no idea how to size PCB traces. I've personally seen two of their ECUs (and been emailed pictures of several more) with the exact same burned point on the injector control trace because it is way too thin to carry serious amounts of current. Poorly made knock offs can give a correctly designed original a bad reputation if people don't realize they are fakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) I'm not even sure it helps with huge injectors. I am sure sequential helps with huge injectors. At idle, you can run twice the pulsewidth as in batch, avoiding in many cases going below the minimum turn-on time (and the resulting instability) of the injector. Resolution has nothing to do with this. There "may" be some benefits in low load (cruise operation) also. Another benefit is the ability to trim fuel to individual cylinders - which comes in handy for those engines with some cylinders that run hot, such as the L or the 2JZ. You are all correct in saying that there is minimal, if any benefit of sequential injection at high load operation/large pulsewidths. Edited April 6, 2011 by speeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Rick, Have you installed the MS3 and played with these individual cylinder trims? I did not want to order one until I had better input like this to convince me that I can control the 150# injectors at idle/cruise. What you say sounds really good. The LS1 intake has problems with the rear cylinders so this would also be a great help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) I have not used MS3 but have tuned some high-end EMS's that support sequential injection. I can say without qualification that sequential systems feel smoother at low loads and definitely enable great idle characteristics. And, while I have not encountered first hand any problems with "hot cylinders", I do feel that the cylinder trims can NOT be a bad idea at all. I have taken a peek at some Haltech calibrations done by a respected local tuner and the rear cylinder of a 2JZ was richened up a bit and retarded a couple degrees for obvious reasons. I have sworn to not mess with any more Megasquirts but am fascinated by the MS3 - I just may build one of these bad boys for my turbo Pathfinder project. Edited April 6, 2011 by speeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cramer Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Rick, Have you installed the MS3 and played with these individual cylinder trims? I did not want to order one until I had better input like this to convince me that I can control the 150# injectors at idle/cruise. What you say sounds really good. The LS1 intake has problems with the rear cylinders so this would also be a great help. MS3 has another feature to help with injectors like the Bosch Motorsports 150 / 160 lb/hr ones. They don't have a very linear response at low pulse widths. MS3 has an "injector small pulse widths" table you can enable to compensate for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Excellent. This is looking more like I will want to order one for my turbo 5.3. I am currently running MS1 v2.2 if you can believe that, which has several short comings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I put one on order and registered tuner studio, will be fun to see what it can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I've been playing with TS for a while. Should have got it a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noddle Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I've been playing with TS for a while. Should have got it a long time ago. good, isn't it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I have spent too much of my time dealing with the cheap end of things. It is time to step up and use a more capable EMS and tuning package. I like to see Phil Tobin get back a little money for all the work he has put in over the years. The simple and cheap stuff use to work for me while I was learning, but now I am ready for the bells and whistles. I need things like fuel pressure logging, trans brake inputs, boost control, idle control and others to make a complete good running car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I bought TS and MLV a while ago. TS just updated to v1.001, and I noticed a couple added features. (Although, on a side note, it takes forever to inititialize the serial drivers--but I have a feeling my USB to serial adapter is the culprit, not TS). I'd say they are both well made products. Worth getting if you consider how cheap they are for what you get, and since it seems like future MS products will only work with TS. I'd even say that some of the aftermarket EMS have much crapier software, and those aren't exactly cheap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.