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#21 Cal Poly Zmanaustin

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:23 PM

has ne1 here gotten a L28ET swapped into a S30 smog certified by the ref?


Yep, when I had my L28ET in my 74' 260Z I was able to pass smog. I detuned it to run ultra clean and placed some of the original equipment on it for the test only to get my smog exemption. I had to walk them through the whole thing. They thought my glass packs were cats and wanted to fail me, then they failed me for not having the proper inlet on the fuel filler. I called CARB on the spot and stated what I had, he agreed I was legal. Next, I told the referee who had just failed me 10 minutes earlier. He walked away and I thought that was it. A minute later he came back with an exemption sicker and I was on my way. Gotta love it.
Mark
"You're so money and you don't even know it"--Swingers
1994 Infiniti G20T
1972 240Z RB30

#22 Gollum

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 02:10 PM

I love your story cal poly. It shows that if you really pursue you can get the refs to do what you need. And obviously from your case some are better than others. If you're willing to do your homework and work with the ref it's amazing what you can get legalised.

I started this post for one reason and one reason only. There's a new service provided by BAR that allows you to check out not only your vehicles test history (wich has been availible for a while) but also weather or not it's going to be test only or not next smog date.

http://www.smogcheck.../pubtstqry.aspx

A HIGHLY recomended link. Bookmark it for sure, although knowing the government the site won't exists in 3 weeks or will be taken on by another website. Bah.

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#23 Guest_Death69_*

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 03:12 PM

wait, so since a 240 doesnt need to pass smog, i can go ahead and put a good engine in it and still be able to leagally have it (registered and whatnot)

#24 Gollum

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 04:19 PM

mmmmmm.... ok... let me see if I can explain this simply without telling you to do anything illegal.

IF the car is 75' or older then there is NO smog testing needed, regardless of make/model of the passanger vehicle.

BUT, any motor swap not certified is deemed by the state of california illegal. Now, the odds of a cop caring is slim. Most cops don't care when it comes to pre 76' vehicles because of the lack of smog test.

General laws that apply to all vehicles are:

ANY swap, in order to be legal needs to be from the same or newer vehicle.

ANY swap, in order to no have to be certified by a ref, need to be the SAME EXACT motor spec that came in that vehicle. So if you're 67' stang came with a 289 it's ILLEGAL to not certify a 351W swap, though a 351W swap can be easily certified.

ANY motor that was NEVER released in the USA CAN NOT be certified for an engine swap.

ANY swap going through certification MUST HAVE any smog equipment that was on the donor vehicle in order to pass.


Now, because of the nature of the beast, I'm not going to tell you to do anything illegal, but I will say that statistically most people with pre smog cars get away with whatever they want engine-wise. If you're living in an inner city area cops view modern cars as much more "high profile threats" than people in old 70's datsuns.

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#25 waynekarnes

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 07:23 PM

Death69,

common misconception.

all passenger vehicles 1955 to present must pass smog tests. all federally and if in the state of california, all ca mandated smog equipment must be in place and functional. any removal of said equip is considered tampering.

the state can legally remove your vehicle from the roadway on the spot ( should an officer of the law in his/her opinion there has been tampering ), not to be returned to the roads until certified by smog ref.

in ca. all engine swaps ( to be legal ) must be carb ref certified.

what the ca. smog ruling says is,

you no longer need to have 1975 and older cars smog tested at registration renewal or when transferring title.

it does not say they no longer have to meet smog requirements.

that said, as was suggested earlier, unless you are acting like an ass in a car that smells of ass, unlikely any officer is gonna harrass you and pull a smog inspection at the curb.

but, officer does have the RIGHT to do it if officer suspects TAMPERING.

keep it clean, keep it safe, doesn't have to be sane. chances are you can swap most any diesel engine into your z that you want, run dual stacks with chome flapper valves up through the roof, get yourself two 22 inch stage coach wheels on the rear and 16's on the front, chances are won't be a single officer that bothers you. let your imagination go wild !!!
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#26 Gollum

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 09:31 PM

Good points wayne. Why can't my posts be that simple to understand?

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#27 waynekarnes

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:10 PM

Gollum,

thanks !

your reply made perfect sense to me as well.

it's important knowledgeable people speak up when ever anyone is confused by the no smog test requirement rumors.

i left out quite a bit of the important details about swaps that you included.

guess, here at hybrid i have been parroting the " no, your car is not exempt from smog reduction devices requirements " so many times i am getting better at it. LOL

for those that don't know, there's a sticky here at hybrid on the ca. smog checks/laws and what's legal as well as a link to the ca. dmv web site.

i believe there is also info there on the smog laws in other states and countries as well.

legal disclaimer, your results may vary.

wayne.
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#28 Guest_Death69_*

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:19 PM

o ok, i see. thanks for all the help!

#29 lesd

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 12:56 AM

This thread got me wondering.... My '73 has a B.A.R. sticker in the door jamb that states that it is registered with the 1964 chevy 327 c.i. engine.
So am I grandfathered with this sticker ?
Having said that, I am building a '96 LT1 turbo motor for the car. If a CHP or a street smog inspection trap pulls me over and pops the hood, I don't think they will like what they see. I do plan on keeping the 1964 327 around for good measure, if the 5hit really hits the fan :icon52:

Maybe pointing out the door sticker would help, but I don't know anymore. I'm going to baby that sticker from now on...
-L

#30 Gollum

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 01:20 AM

Well, in all honesty you're doing the state a favor by putting a LT1 turbo in your car. It'll run cleaner and a lot more consistently clean at that.

But really, what are the odds of finding a smog inspec trap? I've never even SEEN one of those. Though I know the state is testing a system that can be installed on overpasses that will actually be able to point out cars that are creating obsessive smog and then take a picture of the license plate thus letting state send a friendly letter saying they have to see the ref.

They're trying to test the system and just stating to the victims that "you will not be charged or ticketed in any manor, this is for survey purposes only", though the actual success rate of people show up is something less than 10% I think.

But definitely baby that sticker, and definitely keep that motor around. IF there's ever an issue you just put it back in, then the choice is yours (and then you read between the lines of my post ;) )

Import guys have been doing it a long time now though. Those numerous 240SX cars with SR20s... they swap every other year. Too much work IMO.

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#31 waynekarnes

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 05:31 PM

Death69,

i wasn't trying to be a wise guy or shut you down. hope didn't come off that way. no one was born knowing this stuff, the 1st fool had to show the 2nd fool how to do it and so it goes. i'm just another fool in a long line of fools ! LOL

LESD,

name makes me think "lead sled" back from days when i hung out with customizers. they used lead instead of bondo then. many customs had many pounds of lead. low and slow, lead sleds.

anyway, your question: are you grandfathered.

as long as you leave your car as it was when the referree stuck the tag on the pillar of the car, your z is smog legal.

i also have a carb sticker on my 72 scarab. it states the smog equipment required on that engine and your car. it also states the year of the engine.

according to the laws back then, as long as had proper smog devices one could use any year engine from any make. laws have changed. now engine must be same age as chassis or newer.

your swap is grandfathered in, you can legally run an engine older than the chassis.

if you remove the pcv, reset the timing, put a non thermostatic controlled air cleaner on it, remove the air pump ( some counties in calif did not require em. my mom's 69 firebird, bought in '74, has never had a smog pump, was originally from so lake tahoe ), any way if you remove or alter smog devices , this is considered tampering and your car is no longer smog legal.

for your z as well as mine to remain technically legal, vehicle must retain all the devices that are stamped on that metal tag.

an engine swap will render your vehicle, nonconforming ( spell check says no such word as nonconforment ) and illegal.

to be made conforming, you would do the swap, take to referee to be checked. where upon, i believe you will be told to have all the smog controls the engine came with, including a cat or two. lonely old guy with all the cats.

yank the engine, store the smog devices ( mine are under my 58 vette ), store the engine if you think you must. i'd strip it to the short block and store the short block. if still too much for you. strip it down and save the block. just incase the anti car nazi's get into power you will be able to make your V8 z legal again.

i seriously doubt that anyone is gonna hassle you.

the boy racers in their hondas get hassled because they usually smell of ass. cops smell em and hear em miles away. act like an ass, cops is gonna yank you to the curb.

if suspects driver of street racing in his chain saw sounding car with red lights on front fenders and orange on the rear, officer just might ask to see under the hood, looking for that stolen v tech engine. local cops probably won't bother, chp most likely will. chp has some training on smog devices. most certainly recognize an illegal open element K&N filter. depending on attitude of ass behind the wheel and chp officer could be, pop goes the weasel. weasel gets to take coffee can exhaust car to smog station for test.

again, let your freak flag fly. won't encourage you to do anything illegal, no one here would even think of doing such as thing.

retain the old parts, swap in that cleaner running LT-1, help clean up our air and have every good intention of getting it in to your local carb certification center as soon as you have all the kinks worked out of it. because after all, you want it to be running its best and be presentable to the men and women doing the inspection at your friendly local carb certification center.

i am sure i am joining with everyone here, encouraging all of us to do the right thing.

simple answer, if you swap engines or tamper, you are no longer in compliance with the carb sticker affixed to your vehicle. vehicle is then, no longer smog legal.

sorry to take so long to get to such a short answer, had some time to kill.
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#32 lesd

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 01:00 PM

Wayne,
Mine has the pillar sticker, but it only states the year ( 1964 ) and the size ( 327 cu in ) of the engine. There is no list of smog devices. Is that list included on the same sticker on your car ?
My 327 has an open air filter, I don't know if it was BAR'ed with that, or if the previous owner had a totally stock looking engine during the BAR inspection.

I'm hoping that if I get pulled over with the new engine I am preparing, the turbocharged LT1 , the officer will be enough out of his element ( of dealing with ricer kids, etc ) and just be satisfied with the BAR sticker in the door.
But my new engine will certainly not have the 'thermostatically controlled air cleaner' ... :grin: More like a bunch of intercooler plumbing and silicon hose couplers.

I'll keep the 327 and the 4 speed tranny all as a long block, ready to 'snap in' if I have to get it back for smog reasons.
I really don't want any of this type of trouble. There are heavy fines that can be imposed as well, I should remind everyone.
Another thing to worry about: The now can possess and crush ( that's right, CRUSH ) you can if they get you for 'street racing' .
American, the land of the free...

-Les




Death69,


LESD,

name makes me think "lead sled" back from days when i hung out with customizers. they used lead instead of bondo then. many customs had many pounds of lead. low and slow, lead sleds.

anyway, your question: are you grandfathered.

as long as you leave your car as it was when the referree stuck the tag on the pillar of the car, your z is smog legal.

i also have a carb sticker on my 72 scarab. it states the smog equipment required on that engine and your car. it also states the year of the engine.



#33 Gollum

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 01:17 PM

As long as you're not "street racing" the fines CAN be as minimal as fix-it tickets though. A lot of it depends on the officer.

Does your engine label in the door state a vehicle it came from? If not then you've got a really awesome smog label that you REALLY need to baby.

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#34 waynekarnes

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 08:43 PM

Les,

your metal tag should show the make , year, cubic displacement, and type of trans, auto or manual.

below that are boxes the ref would stamp an X into all smog control devised that applied to your replacement engine.

i have same tag on my scarab. there should be a pic of it in my photo gallery.

oh, NEVER EVER say engine SWAP !!!

it's always a REPLACEMENT engine. this is important. the phrase engine swaps sets off all kinds of crazy alarms with the refs.

enuff of that.

you got your tag before the car haters at the carb bought themselves a legislator. thus your car is legal with an engine older than the chassis.

you are correct about the open element. i used to own a real 1970 LT-1 roadster. smog legal with open air element.

i would imagine that your tag must have the pcv marked. in california a pcv was required on all 1964 engines. if i remember correctly, 1960 was last year for a road tube. a road tube was used to vent moist air from the engine, was basically a long tube from off the block, had a couple screens in it to keep bugs out, ran from some where high on the block ( chevy was at rear of block near the dizzy ) down to the road.

the pcv routed to the air cleaner, so gases burned off instead of being dumped directly into the air. i think 1961 was 1st yr for pcv in calif. i know for sure by 1973 all 1955 and newer cars had to replace ( well small engines were exempt and most pre 1968 imports were exempt ) the road tube with a pcv to pass smog tests in calif.

anyway. with the sticker showing the smog controls you need, you are pretty much free to do most anything you want.

the only draw back is you need a 1964 engine to remain legal.

there are many blocks that have been decked and the codes on the front engine pad shaved off.

there are stamp kits available that allow one to restamp the engine codes back onto the pad.

this pad is normally where the smog inspectors check for the year of the engine. especially if you show up with an engine code book and show the inspector, see code on pad, see code in book, it's hard for them to dispute this evidence.

that said, there are date codes on the chevy engines that show the year, month, date and hour the engine block and heads were forged. most inspectors will not bother looking for these as they are usually difficult to see.

so, a block restamped with the proper codes is legal.

i believe, though the laws get changed by flakes that know nothing about cars so often i may be wrong, that : because your engine replacement was done before the laws changed forcing the use of same year or newer than the chassis. you are allowed to replace your worn engine with a newer one of the same family if the correct ( read as YEAR ) replacement is no longer available. meaning if smogged with small block chevy, you may replace it with same year or newer small block chevy. the smog controls would match the tag on the pillar tag, not the newer engine.

those who's replacement engines were certified after the same yr or newer rule went into effect, would be required to meet the smog device required by the year of the engine installed.

so, as i understand it, you can replace your irreplaceable 1964 327 with any small block chevy engine available to you and provided you retained the smog control devices required on the certificate tag.

this would include a turbo charged LT-1 small block.

unfortunately this info is not on the dmv website, you get this info from the books the smog refs use.

my uncle ( passed away while back ) used to have his smog license and built hi performance engines. he knew all the rules that allowed people to legally drive cars with his engines in em. this is where i obtained most of my info, plus several friends used to have smog test lic ( most couldn't afford to live here anymore and moved away ). an old neighbor works for CBAR ( calif bur of auto repair ). he knew the carb ( calif air resources bur ) smog laws inside and out. he was a mechanic that that ran cars through crooked repair shops as well as crooked smog test shops. acted as expert witness for the state. for a while i had his brain to pick and his ref books to look at.

in my opinion, i'd say you'd be fine running that LT-1 as long as it has smog controls matching what ever is marked on the metal tag.

wayne
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#35 Gollum

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 08:53 PM

i believe, though the laws get changed by flakes that know nothing about cars so often i may be wrong, that : because your engine replacement was done before the laws changed forcing the use of same year or newer than the chassis. you are allowed to replace your worn engine with a newer one of the same family if the correct ( read as YEAR ) replacement is no longer available. meaning if smogged with small block chevy, you may replace it with same year or newer small block chevy. the smog controls would match the tag on the pillar tag, not the newer engine.


I agree and I believe this is still the law.

One of my best friends worked for the local ref and now has his own smog shop. That's where I've gotten pretty much all my info. And for what it's worth this smog ref he worked for gets any of the people that other refs don't want to deal with, so they had a lot of unusual cases I got to hear about (and see, since they'd let me hang out there on slow days).

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#36 waynekarnes

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:04 PM

Gollum,

that's better than my experience.

i never got to hang out at the ref station. that would be a great education.

plus, i can imagine from what i saw years back while waiting to have my meyers manx dune buggy certified, there has got to be some real insanity among those bringing cars in to be certified. LOL

during the couple hours i was there, saw at least 3 refs get so p'off at people that they told driver he wasn't going to leave driving the car he had brought in, were told to call a tow truck because that was the only way the car was leaving the inspection station. this was backed up by armed CHP officer.

just maintain your cool, get temp operating permit and return later for another inspection.
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#37 lesd

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 10:46 PM

Wayne,
Thanks for your informative post!
I looked at your sticker, and it is pretty much the same as mine, but I only have the PVC box checked. Also, the B/A box has a B in it, whatever that means.

If it's true that I can legally swap in the LT1 , and only have the PVC valve, that would be rather amazing ! I would guess that you still can't add in enhancements like turbos and still have it legal. Since these laws only effect a very small group of people, ( read: nobody cares enough to patch the loophole) , maybe it would work.

How many HybridZ members have BAR stickers, I wonder?

-Les





(snip)
so, as i understand it, you can replace your irreplaceable 1964 327 with any small block chevy engine available to you and provided you retained the smog control devices required on the certificate tag.

this would include a turbo charged LT-1 small block.

wayne



#38 waynekarnes

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 11:22 PM

Les, i will see if i can remember what that B/A is. i may be that timing retard device i was mentioning earlier. nox control ???

as far as the turbos go, to be strictly legal, look for turbos with a carb part number on em.

one of my younger brothers has a 69 chevy step side running a 600 plus hp small block boosted by a B&M super charger. though he no longer needs to , the truck passed smog with the blower on it. in case you are wondering, turbo 400 trans, i think diff 3:23 gears. at 75 mph, if he stands on it, trans drops into passing gear and both rear tires go up in smoke. B&M blower has carb numbers, his cam, headers, carb, ect, all carb approved.

think he bought the truck when he was a senior in high school, 1975. in his junior yr he had a 55 chevy 2 door hard top all metal, pull the both front wheels 3 to 4 inches off the ground. it as also smog legal ( back in 1974/75 ) cops pulled him over at least once a week on his way to high school ( leigh ), safety inspection and check for emission equipment violations. at he time my daily driver was a 65 chevelle fake SS. 327, corvette factory racing 3 speed trans, 3:90 posi. turned 12.49 120 mph on the 1/4 mi. oh yeah, you guessed it was also smog legal. traded it for a beat up 31 chevy pick up in 1976. almost sold it to Jungle Jim Liberman.

anyway, you can be legal with the turbos . especially with turbos being so common on imports. camaros were made in canada isn't the pt cruiser made in mexico ? it has turbos as an option. aren't both of them imports ?

i say, you should be able to have at least 2 turbos if you want em.
72 V8 in progress
meyers manx dune buggy
72 baja bug
73 240z bone stock.
yeah, i have a money pit, infact i have 4 of em.

#39 Gollum

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 11:48 PM

Yea, good luck on those carb approved turbos :D

The same buddy of mine with a smog shop has a JDM B16A motor in his honda, that' he's legalized (probably one of the few true legalized jap JDM motors in the bay) and he's been really made with greddy. You see, they spent all sorts of money to legalize the newer hondas for their new CARB approved turbos, and didn't fork over the money for the older hondas, regardless of NO engine change... So he's stuck having to go NA for legal HP since there's no TRUE legal force induction for a del sol (wich is what his car's label is designed around).

Though in this particular case I'm not sure how exactly THOSE laws work. It's all really confusing. If it's a big enough of an issue lesd, write up a quick summery of what your car is, what you want to do with it, and what would have to be done for it to be "legal" and I'll run to my buddies place real soon and see what he thinks.

I really don't understand though, around town turbos just help reduce emissions anyways. Why the state cares so much is beyond me. (everyone I've ever talked to that's done smog, would buy either an EVO or WRX for a "legal" sleeper, becuase they're AWD they don't get tested on the smog dyno, and becuase they're turbo you can get them to run perfectly clean at testing RPM with nearly limitless HP in the upper range)

'75 280Z, L28ET, Street going rat rod

http://forums.hybrid...ms-dd-l28et-75/


#40 Just Jim

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:04 AM

[quote name='lesd']This thread got me wondering.... My '73 has a B.A.R. sticker in the door jamb that states that it is registered with the 1964 chevy 327 c.i. engine.

I find all this smog requirement talk quite entertaining. Per the California laws posted an engine swap must use the same year or newer engine to be legal. Then how did a 1964 327 get a B.A.R sticker for a 1973 Z?

Maybe per the law an engine swap into a '75 or older vehicle must pass certain requirements but in the real word most pre '76 swaps are made with no regard to the law. Personally I'm not worried about the legality of the 302 Ford swap into my 240Z and neither are the thousands of other people who have made an engine swap into a pre '76 vehicle.
'72 240Z 302/C4 Junk Yard Refugee
'62 Falcon 351W "Just Falcon Around"
'58 Morris Minor 289/C4




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