mom'sZ

Most towns have automotive paint supply houses. Most part stores carry at least some paint supplies, but usually not that great a selection. If there are body shops in town... there is a supply store. Look in the phone book

Silent:These guy's really want to help you. Please don't take offense. This topic has been disscussed many times here and some of the guys get a little short if it seems obvious that you didn't make at least some effort to use the search function to find an answer to your question. Anyhow, your most recent post goes a long way toward answering some of the stuff people would need to know before making a recomendation on spring rates. Wouldn't you prefer that instead of them making a bogus suggestion based on incomplete information? You stated that the car will be for road racing. Some forms of road racing can be done using a car which could still be streetable, even gutted with 10 point cage. If the car is ever to be street driven, that would have a bearing on spring rates as most real race cars use rates that would be way to harsh for street use. Also, some classes such as GT use huge slick tires, others such as IT use DOT tires. This would have a bearing on spring choice. If you are using AZ Zcar stuff for suspension, I assume (guessing) IT is out as that would be illegal. (stock suspension parts only) You also mentioned gutted and 10 point cage. IT is only allowed 8 points, so again I'm assuming you're going for prodution or GT. Most GT cars are full tube chassis these days. So production? Maybe a track day car? Another question that is important is the actual track you intend to race. Some are bumpier and so require softer rates. Also, as conditions change (rain?) spring rates need to change. I'm no expert, I'm just trying to point out how many differnt things could effect your choice. In the end, as one expert has stated, you will probably need a wide varity of spring rates. Here's a tip, go to improvedtouring.com and search 'Zcar suspension setup'. There are quite a few active road racers who frequent this disscusion group. I'm sure they have read this thread. There are a few outright Z car road racing gurus who lurk about from time to time. Guy's who've tuned on championship winning teams. They want nothing more then to help a fellow Zcar racer. Good Luck!!

I remember finishline guns, but never used one. I think they are made by Devilbiss. What is wrong with your buddy's gun? Unless it was thrown or dropped it should still be good and probably just needs a good cleaning. Most cheap guns spray pretty good, at least at first. I'm not so sure I'd want to use one for top coating though.

Ed: I'm a fairly new member here and I read the forum for months before joining. I worked as a paint and body guy for twenty five years. I have absolutly no intention of doing any paint and body work on my car anytime soon. But I feel like painting and especially body work, heavy collision and unibody repair are things I know a great deal about and might have something useful to share with the group. Since a lot of the stuff I need to learn about in other facets of working on Zs other members have taught me, I figure checking the paint and body thread is my way of returning to the forum. RacerX has earned my respect as a painter just reading his threads. This is a great resource and, to me, what the internet is all about... LONG LIVE HYBRIDZ!!!!!!!!!!

Now that I've done this modification to the car, I have a few things I'm curious about. After having had all the suspension pieces apart and having replaced all those bushings with the urathane ones, my question is this: Where do the bushing pivot? In other words, do the bushings pivot in their sleeves or do the inner sleeves pivot on the bolts? I hope I'm asking this in a way people can understand what I'm asking. The stock ones, the inner sleeves were in many cases frozen to the bolts, and the stock bushings are bonded to the inner and outer sleeves, so the pivoting came from the actual twisting of the stock rubber bushing. Now the new urathane ones obviously don't twist any at all and the bushings seem to pivot between the inner sleeve and the bolt. Another thing about the urathane bushing kit that kind of was wierd to me was that the new inner rear control arm bushing sleeves were a tad longer then the stock ones. So when you tighten the bolt, it is going to lock that inner sleeve in place. Then the outer bushing surface is clamped by the mount, so where does it pivot? I hope everyone can follow what I'm asking. I tried to set the suspension up to work as smoothly as possible. I read with interest the other thread called 'acceptable + size offset' (sorry, don't know how to make link) where JohnC mentions 'stiction'. I've heard of that term before and I guess basically knew I wanted things as smooth as possible even though I didn't put that term to it. JohnC, if you read this thread, is the 280Z as bad as the 240 about this stiction and what if anything can be done to reduce it within the confines of stock components and allowable mods consistent with SCCA IT rules.

hmmmm... excellent information John, very informative. Great thread!!

Trouble: The struts are not sectioned although the strut inserts are made to allow it. I did not have time or the proper equipment to do it and I really planned on setting the suspension up at the stock ride hieght in the beginning. I wanted to see how it handled before screwing with the geometry. I placed the perches where ground control told me to in the instructions, which was about the only information provided by the instructions. In the back it said to place them 8 inches above the cast section. In the front they were to be placed 5 inches above the cast section as per the instructions. Well I followed that information and with the adjusters wound all the way to the top of their travel the car sits about an inch and a half lower then stock. That was for a 280Z. For a 240 they suggest 10" free length spings and 7" in back, 5" in front. The car may sit lower because of the camber plates being installed instead of the big rubber stock mounts. These same instructions clearly show the original ones being reinstalled, in fact it says 'stock upper mount' although when I called the first time the salesman said 'you have to use our camber plates with our coil over kits', which I didn't really believe but went along with because I planned to buy them anyhow. I guess now what I'll do is make some spacers to fit between the perches and the spings to raise it up to stock.

my springs are 12"

Ok, here is shot of suspension on the front of car. Drag link not yet installed in this shot. I have more shots still on the camera at home of the rear and the fronts all installed. Will post. I lightened this shot hope all can see.

Ok, I shrank the file down so it would be easier to view on our forum. Hope everyone can see, it is a before and after shot of the fronts. I have more of the struts mounted on the car. Will upload soon. JohnC, my intention is to do exactly that, but I still must replace/rebuild engine and LSD, hopefully by end of this year and 2 driving schools as per current SCCA licensing requirments, hopfully early 06. So it might be awhile.

ok here goes

Hello group: I just finished my first major improvment on my Z. I installed coil over springs, Koni strut inserts, camber plates front and rear and energy suspension bushings. I just drove the car for the first time this afternoon. It rides very well for an eye ball alignment. I decided to try the new Koni inserts, the 8610 1437 Race. The front springs are 200 lbs. the rears are 225 lbs. The ride is firm, you feel every pebble in the road with no rubber in the strut mounts, but you only hear larger bumps. The ride is very planted, very firm but stable. I'd like to thank the whole forum group membership for all your help. I read hundreds of old threads which helped me pick the components and spring rates and such. Thanks all of you!!! I will try to post a picture at work tommorow

Well ... in case anybody reads this thread... I GOT IT!!!! It was the water temp sensor for the fuel injection. Once the new injectors were in and it was running full rich, hence the blue smoke. So the temp sensor was a logical next guess. 17 bucks! Car idles, pulls strong, runs good.

I guess I'll revive my own old thread because I'm still having trouble getting the car running. I'd like to rediscribe the problem as I've had time to really diagnois it. Originally, the problem manifested itself as a stalling issue. When it would do so it was usually at a light. To review this is a almost completely stock F.I. 77 280Z. As I tried to diagnois the problem I noticed it would also do it going down the road. You'd be driving along and it would die like somebody unplugged something, then come back to life. This was a daily driver, ran ok and I had to do very little to keep it running. So, here's what I've done. (see above) wires, plugs cap rotor. All hoses for fuel and vacumn on engine. Install gauge to see fuel pressure. Checking everything on the whole engine I came across the fact that the connections to the fuel injectors were corroded. At that point you couldn't even drive it, and it would barely start and ran on three cylinders when it would. Some contact cleaner and fiddling got them temporarily going and it seemed to run better. So... I got six brand new injector and new wire ends, redid the harness and install injectors. Fixed connections for air regulator and cold start do-hicky while at it. OK so... I really felt the injector connections were not the main problem. But I felt further diagnoisis could not continue until they were replaced. And I figured it would take care of the running on three cylinders thing. And believe me, one night in frustration I started yanking plug wires off and it truely was running on three. When I would yank them off you could hear the spark going teh teh teh, so you know that was working. Sorry long post, so, I replace injectors. Now I try to start it. Runs like on three again. Won't idle, won't even start if I don't get in and hold the throttle open a tad. Then when it starts, it runs like it's running on three cylinders, You try to rev it, it is pouring out blue white smoke and won't rev. Then suddenly it goes, runs on all six and revs like an Indy car. Then more smoke and won't rev again. won't idle, stalls out. HELP, HELP, please anybody

X: yeah, you get used to what you're using. You know it works and how and can be confident of producing a job with a certain level of quaility. All brands of paint work subtly different. Painters deal with a thousand different variables everyday. (as you know) Most brands of paint have at least three different reducers, sometimes multiple hardeners, and it's only through using each in varying conditions that true expertease (with that brand) comes. And what you mentioned about taking extra time and the boss getting irate, that's it! Knowing a material is mostly knowing what you can skip. If it's a new material, you can't skip anything. It's a business where a guy's pride in what he does means everything. As a painter you live or die by your reputation. You impress me as a guy who takes enormous pride in what he does.

excellent thread!

RacerX: I was wondering if you were lurking. In the day, I used to use the term blue black and brown black. It was my experience that all blacks either had a brown cast or a blue cast. (what I considered a brown cast may have been what you call a red cast) At the time I knew which manufacturer's blacks were which. It was my understanding at that time, and this could be all wrong, but it was my understanding that all blacks are made from mixing together other colors. Some using mostly brown as a starting point and others blue. Anyhow, I always preferred the blue black, I just never realized anybody but me ever noticed the difference. I thought about mentioning it in my first post but decided it was to technical. Polishing them seemed to make the cast come out more. Anyhow, that was one hell of an experiment you did. My hats off to you! Also... you've used Standox? I started a job once and that was the paint they used. I never had even heard of the stuff before that. Well, it took some getting used to, but once I figured it out I LOVED IT!!! Was sorry when the manager quit and the new guy brought in BASF. Hated that stuff at first to, but later got used to it and loved it as well!?! bla ha ha ha... sorry to original poster for thread jack good to see you X

OK... paint and body man for twenty five years. First, black is black is black. PPG or some other manufactor may call thier particular type black paint triple black or whatever but, that's the one cool thing about black, whatever brand, type, or what ever black, it always matches. Black is black. It's the only color that can be panel painted and assure a good match. And that is one great reason to go black, repairability. The question of single stage or two stage, for black, this is up to the painter. If a lay person can tell the difference, the painter screwed up. But here's some food for thought. Base coat, the first stage of two stage paint is different from single stage or clear. It is fast drying, like old fashion laquaer. You spray it on and a few minutes later you can touch it, it's dry to the touch. In this way, and this is the advantage of two stage, you get the color on the car, laid out nice and covering good, then you slam it with the clear. The base provides color, the clear just provides the shine. Single stage and clear are wet longer. Stuff (dirt dust bugs ect.) gets in it. It must be sprayed in a spray booth. The base dries so quick, if something gets in it, you wait a sec and simply sand it out, dust another coat on and keep going. Now, sanding and polishing. I always thought they look better straight out of the booth with no sanding or polishing. It's hard (impossible really) to get all the swirl marks out of a paint job. Black is the worst about this. They do have some product, soft polishing bonnets made from foam and super mild polishing compounds made for swirl removal. (see your paint supplier) If you don't have access to a booth this may be your only alternative. Have fun, sorry for another long post, and before you spray your first ounce of black make sure your bodywork is PERFECT, black shows everything!!!

AK-Z: I was in the paint and body business for twenty five years. I have first hand experience with this type of repair. (in other words I have done it myself) It is commonly refered to as 'clipping' the car in the business. The name comes from the fact that when you bought a half car from the junk yard, either front or back, it was called a 'clip'. Here's how it was done: You cut the two cars at a point half way up the windsheild opening. (A pillar) You then cut across the floor pan, usually under the front seat, and through the rockers. The two car halfs are lined up and welded together. The windshield cuts would be done measuring very carefully and butt welded so the windshield would fit back in. The cut in the floor on the other hand would usually be cut with some slack and simply overlapped. The cut in the rockers would often be staggered with the cut in the floor pan to add strength. That's technically how it's done for the purpose of collision repair. Now I'd like to give my opinion and make a few comments. First, at some point they stopped letting us do this, later they started letting us again but it was rare. (they being the insurance companies) That was for two reasons, the first was some guys were doing a crappy job of it and creating unsafe cars. (I've driven one that did exactly what jmortensen describes) The second was that guys were doing it with stolen cars and it made tracking down the stolen cars difficult. Also, this was popular to do in the collision business because it was a fast easy way to fix a really hard hit car. If, however, this was my car, I would do it differently. I did a ton of restoration and in the old days we didn't have all these readily available patch panels. When you replaced a panel, you either made the replacement from scratch, bought it from the factory new (often unavailable) or you cut one off another car. I stitched a lot of old cars together with panels from other donor cars. This is how I'd do yours, cutting the pieces apart at the factory seams by drilling out the old spot welds. It's time consuming but it ends up being a better job, First off, somebody can't crawl under the car and see the seam. Maybe if you can provide more info, I can make suggestions on how to proceed. What exactly is mess up about each car, what parts? the frame rails in front, rust damage, collision damage, what? Sorry for the long post. Now I must contact beta motor sprouts about some bean seeds. (only kidding John)

RacerX: I even saw one guy who did this really wild scheme with multiple colors and stripes and stuff. He painted the whole car white as a base then painted each color of the scheme taped off seperatly so the paint was only one layer thick everywhere. I thought that was a little crazy but it looked great and he insisted it would last longer. A pro painter has to consider a paint job on cars like these could last decades. I did the paint job on my car fifteen years ago, it's acrylic enamel, (Ditzler I think) and it still looks good. Although I would have used the good stuff if I'd have know.

dat240zg: former professional painter - 25 years. You have two questions here as I see it. Question 1 is does two tone look better light on top, dark on bottom or dark / light. Well... personal taste has more to do with this then anything else, but one point I'd like to make is dark color cars are HOT inside. The air conditioning has to work harder to keep a black car cool then a white car. So for me two tone was a chance to do dark on the sides, the part of the car people mostly see, and light on the top surfaces, the part mostly effected by heat. My favorite combo was always silver on top, black on the sides. Question 2 is paint edge issue. On an open flat part of a panel a hard taped edge does indeed show. Not so much show but if you run your finger over it, you'll feel it. And if you check this on most two tones you'll see. As 280zone points out, this is mostly handled by covering the edge with a pinstripe. How much paint you apply has a lot to do with how bad the edge is. Sometimes, if I didn't what a bad edge, I would apply several coats stopping a few inches back from the tape and then only apply paint all the way to the edge on the last coat. Modern paints need less mil build (thickness) then the old days, most amatuer paint put on to much. (but that leaves plenty to buff) Base coat / clear coat would be the chose for a two tone. Base coat doesn't build up thickness very fast and once both colors are on you clear over both all at once. If they are both solid colors you could even gently sand the edge down a little with like 600 grit. Either way, the edge will be there, no one wil notice.

On 3 Go... that picture almost made a corn flake shoot out my nose this morning! What a panic!!!

I always thought it meant in my HUMBLE opinion?

I kind of agree with pop n wood. Subframe connectors seem like a great addition for almost any Zcar. The roll cage on the other hand... in a street car, I don't know that I would make that recomendation. As a very knowledgable member pointed out some time back, rollcage padding is made to protect a helmeted driver. Ouch! And it's not just you, consider who may be in the car with you. I think each person must make the decision as to if they want to take that chance. With some careful thought I'm sure there are many ways to reinforce the structure without steel tubes running around in the passenger compartment. And if you do go the cage route, proper seats, seat mounts, harnesses and such are a must. Please caged street guys, don't flame me, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

whoops... I think I've got it backwards, like you say Jamie, the drivers side was the one with the left hand side threads on the original. Uhh... you turned it counterclockwise to thread it on. But anyhow, same problem the new one was right hand side threads on the drivers side.