Nigel
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Posts posted by Nigel
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Hold on here... we haven't even solved a basic boost control issue and we're jumping right into programmable ECU's? Yikes! To me, it looks like we're trying to run before we can crawl?
The AEM boost controller is pretty basic and should be easy enough to sort out. The stock ECU has no control over the wastegate, so if you're suddenly getting 22psi after cleaning the ECU plugs, then something else coincidental is going on. As others have suggested (many times) and so far appears to have yet been done, start by reconnecting the wastegate actuator directly to the manifold, and verify that it manages the stock boost level ok. If not, then obviously that has to be solved first. If everything checks out ok with that, reconnect the AEM boost controller solenoid, and verify that the vacuum lines are hooked up properly... port 2 connects to the actuator, and port 3 connects to the manifold. The gauge (controller) port also connects to the manifold.
There are two settings you have to program on the Tru-Boost... duty cycle (on/off percentage for the solenoid, because that's all that a boost controller does is turn a solenoid on for a certain percentage of time and off for a certain percentage of time, rapidly blocking and unblocking the pressure sent to the wastegate actuator to make it look like less pressure is pushing on it) and spring pressure (boost pressure when the controller starts cycling the solenoid).
Thats the thing... the controller is set at 12 but yet it still pushes 14.4. I have checked what the controller is set at numerous times and it still says 12, and if i set it back to 10 psi it still pushes 14.4.You do not set it to an actual pressure level like 12psi, so don't enter 12 and expect 12psi of boost. Start with the spring pressure set to one, and a duty cycle of 10% (which means that the pressure to the actuator is blocked 10% of the time), and increase the duty cycle in small increments until you see a pressure level you want. Once you're happy with the boost level, and it's stable, increase the spring pressure as high as you can without getting boost spikes. This will keep the wastegate closed for as long as possible before it has to start regulating boost and will help the turbo spool up quickly. This will always be several psi lower than the boost level you are trying to achieve. If your duty cycle is set to 10% and you're still getting 14psi of boost, then the spring pressure is probably too high.
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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So what exactly happens other than "it goes nuts"? When you floor it, does it start to build boost and then hit a wall where the boost gauge needle starts wildly swinging back and forth, the engine starts jerking, and it just won't build more boost? That would be surge, and judging by the map that wigenOut posted, you'll have it with that compressor. Strange that you say it happens in the upper rpm's though. What happens when you floor in in third from 2500 rpm?
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Hi Nigel, that statement all depends on where the vacuum is coming from to open and close the valve. The recirculated system is behind the throttle plate,
Where else would you get vacuum from other than behind the throttle plate? It's the restriction of the throttle plate that creates the vacuum. A BOV that vents to atmosphere is no different to a recirculating system in this regard. They both need a vacuum source to open, and there's only one place they're going to get it.
How much vacuum is required to open the valve varies from one BOV to another. I've tested a 1G Mitsubishi valve, a Subaru Legacy turbo valve and a Greddy Type RS. The Mitsu and the Greddy (depending on how tight you screw it down) both open around 15" and the Legacy valve opens at as little as 5".
The real problem that you can run into is that many designs will be open at idle and for part of the cruising range, like the three I mentioned above, and if they're left to vent to atmosphere, at the very least, on a MAP based system, this means that unfiltered air can be sucked in. With a volumetric or MAS system, this is unmetered air, which will result in the mixture running lean, although the O2 sensor will compensate somewhat. To get around this, guys that have vent to atmo setups will tighten the spring way down (depending on the design) to try and keep it closed at idle. But this results in the brief discharge you hear, and the other problems you talk about. I added a one-way valve to the discharge of my Greddy BOV to prevent this and allow me to run the spring with minimal compression.
I would argue that a recirc system is no better or worse than a vent to atmo system. Like anything, you have to understand the limitation of each and be familiar with the operating design of the BOV you are using.
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Thanks RoostMonkey!
Well....what a surprise when I made up the 280Z straps! They are shorter than the 240Z pair. Roughly 1.5 - 2 inches depending on the side.
Anyway...they will be test fited into a 76 later this week.
Anyone with a set laying around...please measure the length of each. I would like to confirm if all the 280Z straps are the same!
'77 and '78 280Z's have a completely different tank. Are you sure you don't have the straps from one of those?
Nigel
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So if you build 22 psi of boost, (lets say 1300 SCFM) when you close the throttle plate the BOV opens and relieves the pressure due to the closed throttle plate. BUT, the turbo is still spooled and compressing air. When the BOV closes you again have boost that effectively is going NOWHERE, and it is creating drag on the compressor, at the same time you are introducing drag on the exhaust turbine wheel and it spins slower. What do you get for all of your efforts to help out the turbo? You get a turbo that has stress on the shaft turning the compressor wheel, stress on the exhaust turbin wheel and it begins to spin slower.
Wait a minute...
To summarize, you are saying that with a BOV that vents to atmosphere, once the blow-off valve closes, the compressed air from the turbo has nowhere to go and therefore, it's hard on the turbo and slows it down...
However, all else being equal, the exact same thing will happen with a recirculating system. The BOV is still going to close, and when it's closed, the air still has nowhere to go. Recirculating doesn't change that one bit.
NOW, look at the recirculated BOV setup:You build boost, the air has already been metered, by the MAF or the MAP sensors. You close the throttle plate. Air pressure begins to build up and slow down the turbo RPM, you open the BOV, the already measured air goes from the turbo compressor outlet, and is then plumbed back into the INTAKE of the turbo, where it again is compressed and pushed out of the turbo compressor to the BOV and into the intake of the turbo again. The compressor has little or no drag to flow air, the exhaust turbine is still spinning at high RPM's, the exhaust spent gases are still flowing into the exhaust system, the turbo maintains its RPM, or close to it, you have no air metering to speak of on either the MAF based system or the MAP based system, so the fuel management stops injecting fuel, you get the fuel cut that stops back fires.
I will agree that with a volumetric or mass based efi system, recirculating is necessary to prevent the ECU from dumping in fuel for air that doesn't make it to the engine. However, with a MAP based system, this doesn't matter. When you close the throttle, the MAP sensor will instantly see vacuum and cut the fuel. So, with a BOV that vents to atmosphere, the ECU will never know that air was there.
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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Nigel
'73 240ZT
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I went with the generic Chinese version off ebay from the vendor "alpha-bid". It turned out it was cheaper to buy the four window kit and split it with a friend than to buy two two window kits! The 4 window kit is $160, and the two window kit is $96. The only downside is that you get a 4 window switch pod and 3 single switch pods instead of a 2 switch pod and 1 single switch pod. However, I mounted my switches directly in the center console of my 240, so I didn't need the pods, and you also end up with extra switches for spares! Oh yeah, you do have to be comfortable with electrical work, because the wiring harness does have to be modified. But there's yards and yards of wire to work with.
My friend and I have both had our kits installed for about a year, and they've worked great so far. The motors are supposedly made in Japan, so they should be reliable. Also, there apparently is a built in clutch system so the motors don't stall when the windows reach the top and bottom. The caps that cover the hole in the door panel are pretty much flush, and blend in very nicely. I'm 6'7" tall, and I like the fact that my knee doesn't bash into the window crank any more.
I just have a few pics so far. I'll see if I can find some time to take more today...
Here's one of the 2 window kit:
Overall install in the door:
Closeup of window crank:
Closeup of motor mount:
Door panel cap:
Wire harness to door using rubber grommets and corrugated plastic wire loom (the wires don't get pinched in this location):
Switch location (I need to repaint the switch plate flat black):
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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We need more information to go further. What year Z is this? Is this something new that just started happening? Did you recently acquire the car, and it's always done this? Does it only happen when trying to start the car? Help us out here...
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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Yesterday I went and pulled all the fuses out and i found a 30 amp fuse in a 10 slot. I am going to replace it with the correct value and hope it will turn over
I that's not going to fix your problem. There's still something drawing way too much current, meaning you have a short somewhere. If it's on the circuit with the 30 amp fuse, then you will simply blow the 10 amp fuse. However, that will tell you that the short likely is somewhere on that circuit. And that doesn't mean you should leave the 30 amp fuse in there. You should still replace it with the appropriate amperage fuse or it defeats the purpose of having the fuse there in the first place...
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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OK, thanks for the recommendation. I was thinking you couldn't get them pounded together, but rather you had to slit the inner panel in a few spots to spread it up far enough, and then you'd have to install some extra metal to close it all off. How about the two ends of each cut where it tapers back to the original L-bend at the factory join? You know, the area right close to under each end of the flares?
Not to be an a$$, but this was all explained on page 1 in the very first post...
(Ok, except the bit about the ends, but it's pretty much the same principle)
Nigel
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Did the fork move the throwout bearing properly before you installed the trans? Are you using the original 240Z clutch?
Nigel
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Bottom line is intercoolers cause some level of pressure drop.
With this, you have the following options:
Tap at turbo outlet ---> More careful, gradual spool, slightly less boost gets to the engine, wastegate keeps open a bit more on shift (if it was open when you shift)
Tap at manifold ---> More aggressive spool, possible boost spike, more boost gets to the engine, vacuum can pull the wastegate shut more during shift which redirects more exhaust by the turbine wheel to keep it going
I think that's a fair assessment if you're not using any kind of boost control other than a direct connection to the actuator. But if you're using a device that blocks the signal, like a solenoid or ball and spring controller then that will change things. Boost level and spool speed are no longer issues. My results were obtained with a Hallman controller (Ball and spring). Unfortunately, I don't have time to elaborate more, but I wanted to throw that in there...
Nigel
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Nigel,
Any info or a Toronto connection of where to buy?
I've been thinking of tossing one on my car...
I can't remember if I ordered mine from Canadian Tire or bought it on-line from driverfx.ca (prices in Canadian $). Driverfx.ca has some really competative prices and a hugh manufacturers list. But the weird thing about driverfx.ca is that you have to call them if you want to place an order over $200. If you try to submit the order on-line for anything above $200 you get this vague message that there was "a problem" processing your order. Nowhere does it tell you about the $200 cap on the website! So, when you're ready to submit your order on-line, you have to call them and they will temproarily raise the limit. Really stupid. There's also performanceparts.com, which has free shipping in Canada. But there's ~$17US handling fee, and even if the website says they have stock, they may not have stock on the item in Canada and they won't ship it from a US warehouse unless you call them and ask them to send it USPS from the California warehouse. Apparently the California warehouse is the only one that can ship USPS!
Other than that, your best bet is just to call around to some local performance shops and see what you can find.
Nigel
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A converter is not a cure all for a poorly running engine and a missing hatch seal. And yes, a well tuned engine can pass 26 year old emissions standards without one (I’ve seen it done too). But if you can significantly reduce those emissions even further with minimal cost and no performance loss as part of an overall strategy to reduce exhaust fumes by incorporating a converter, then it makes sense to me to take advantage of that.
No, a converter is not going to be 100% efficient 100% of the time. But neither is an engine going to be 100% tuned and running in the ideal state to minimize emissions 100% of the time. And you could drive yourself crazy obsessing over every little pinhole leak in your car.
Try one out. For $100, it’s not much of a gamble. I’ve had mine in my Z for 6 years and 20,000 miles, and I’ve done track days and probably 200 drag runs and it’s holding up fine so far. If it crapped out tomorrow, I’d gladly shell out another $100 for a replacement. Everyone that I’ve come across who’s tried one has been happy with the results.
Nigel
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its funny, I have about 36" of exhaust off my turbo and I dont think its that bad inside. And I dont even have a hatch seel lol.
Maybe you're used to it? Smokers don't seem to notice how much cigarette smoke smells or how sick it's making them either. BTW, I'm not trying to imply that YOU are a smoker. I've no idea if you are or not. I'm just trying to make a point.
Nigel
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I'm probably going to get this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MPE-59959/
GRM tested a cat just like this on their Miata and the dyno showed no difference between it and a test pipe.
That's the one one of my friends is using. It's a nice compact unit. I wish it'd had been available 6 years ago when I installed a converter in my Z.
Nigel
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IMO you should look at a isolator kit if you really want to stay mechanical. There is basically a diaphram that transfers the pressure to antifreeze and that goes to the gauge.
Some about pressurized fuel in the cabin I dont like
Personally I would pay the money and go electric if you feel its that nessecary.
He did mention that he is going to install it on the cowl...
If you don't want to spend the $35, you could get some 5/16" fuel line rated for fuel injection (don't get regular fuel line, and certainly not nylon!). Then, go to a local industrial supply store that specializes in hydraulics for the fittings. You'll probably need 2 fittings to convert from 5/16" to -4AN. One thing to be aware of is that they will likely refer to the -4AN as 1/4 JIC (Joint Industrial Council). If they're a decent shop, you should be able to bring all your parts and tell them what you want to do, and they'll show you what you need. They likely won't be fancy aluminum fittings, but it'll be a lot cheaper!
Nigel
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As I understand it, a converter primarily addresses hydrocarbons.
Modern three way converters split nitrogen oxides into nitrogen and oxygen, oxidize carbon monoxide to form carbon dioxide, and oxidize hydrocarbons to also form carbon dioxide and water. With a closed loop system, you can get close to 100% conversion of all three.
Nigel
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A converter won't change infiltration.
1% Carbon Monoxide is considered fatal. It's also orderless. You can pick up an inexpensive disposable CO 'indicator' at most any small aircraft renter.
Exactly! All the better a reason to have a converter...
Nigel
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I'm running one with my L28 turbo and it made a world of difference! You may still be breathing exhaust, but it's a lot less toxic. I don't notice any exhaust odor anymore other than the occasional faint whiff of a rotten egg smell when backing off the gas after a full throttle run.
Based on my experience, two of my friends with NA L28's have added cats and they too are very pleased with the results. The converters are so cheap these days, and the power loss is insignificant if any, so it's hard to find a reason not to do it. Mind you, this is not a solution for a badly tuned engine!
Oh yeah, and it's better for the environment too, so it's a win-win solution all around!
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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Is this for a fuel injected application? Where do you plan to mount the gauge?
BTW, the Jeg's universal kit looks like a good deal at $15 less than the autometer...
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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Whe on-boost, there is a drop...but all that does is hold your wastegate closed tighter longer till manifold pressure builds to the pressure the wastegate is set to lift. In practical application, the boost comes on harder like this, and modulates pretty well on partial lift-throttle (at least in my experience.)
I've dataloged the boost curve with the wastegate actuator source on the manifold and the turbo and there are obvious boost spikes with the source on the manifold because of the delay in the signal getting to the actuator.
What you DO get though is a VACUUM signal to your wastegate actuator which opens it WIDE AND QUICK slowing the turbo on lift-shift.
How does a vacuum signal OPEN the actuator? And why do you want to SLOW the turbo on lift-shifts?
Something isn't adding up here...
Nigel
'73 240ZT
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Is something like this what you had in mind?
Nigel
'73 240ZT
S130 big intercooler install problem. help.
in S130 Series - 280ZX
Posted
That is pretty funny... you removed the Heads Up Display and placed it on some feathers? Probably a good idea for such a delicate instrument.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean or to pick on you, but as Yasin already pointed out, you need to put more effort into your writing on this forum (Hybridz rule #5). Nobody is expecting college level essays, but you should at least spell basic words like "hood" and "and" (not "an") properly. Try using Firefox as your browser. It will at least check your spelling as you type.
Nigel
'73 240ZT