Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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MS Forum has some stuff on writing code for sensor circuits...
There may be another method...
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Well, discussing it with JeffP and his EE Buddy at work, they both are of the opinion that the floating reset pin on the MS is a BIG mistake, and Jeff has long said I should tie the pin high or low to prevent nusiance resets. The EE Bud suggested a 4.5K resistor tied to ground on that reset pin.
I really am not having reset problems that I can see, it is far more bizzare than that.
Oh, to only have a reset problem to solve! In the begining with the Com issue, I took to pulling that pin out of the socket to prevent resets!!!
I stuffed it back in after they replaced the motherboard, modem, com section of my Vaio Laptop.......
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connect the starter system! The discs on the top of the carb, towards the manifold pivot, and they activate an enrichment system that will allow these carbs to start and warm up the car even in -40 temperatures.
IT IS NOT A CHOKE! Once you open the throttle plate, the starter system ceases to have the vacuum required to function. It will fire the engine, and you can ease it off till the engine is up to temperature, then drive the car. You can drive with the car partially warmed if you can stand the popping, but it's ill advised as it's still lean.
The discs operate opposite the stock starter system in the SU's, so you either need to hook up another cable to the stock choke lever and run it to the front carb, or try to do it with the stock choke cable---but they don't like the bend like that. Easiest thing to do is take a coat hangar or welding rod, and bend it so it fits in all three carbs starter disc holders, and then just clamp your actuating cable in the far end.
There are setups that rotate the discs the other way _so I'm told_ but I have never seen one. They actuate by pushing them to the front of the car. You _might_ get by with hooking the stock choke cable up to the rear carb, and starting it with only one carbs starter system active, but the other two will run raggedy b utt lean till it warms up.
Welcome to the wonderful "Carbs are Simple" world of myths and happy reminisces! LOL
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Why would the throttle plate have to be mounted _on_ the supercharger? I would think a suitable pipe with a radius pointed wherever you had room would allow a throttle plate to be mounted pretty much everywhere, and give you a bit of "softness" on drop-throttle to prevent blower surge.
Frank's compressor has provisions for a bypass under drop-throttle, and when he starts fabbing it up on a JCR Plenum intake, will find he really should have kept that RHD Z-Car he had, as the rearward facing TB setup will make it hard to clear the brake booster. But he will find that making the cowl air intake area into a large air filter box will solve a lot of problems in the T/B Mounting arena! LOL
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The purpose of running 195 degree water across the throttle valve is to keep the intake air temp as consentient as possible, i.e. easier to keep a predetermined AFR for emissions reasons, (you did catch that I mentioned the word Emissions right?).
I would have to humbly disagree on that point. There is not enough surface area to do much of anything to the incoming air temperature due to the JT effect at partial throttle, and at WOT it doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of affecting temperatures. If it was that kind of setup, like on stationary engines, or F1 Honda engines, it would havea thermostatic velve tied to intake plenum temperature.
The true reason was as above, to keep carbon from heavy PCV sloughing off and pliable while driving, and to let it move into the floor of the plenum where accumulation can be tolerated instead of at the throttle plate.
Datalog with a standalone EMS system and you will see the effect on intake plenum temperatures are almost totally dependent on vehicle speed and underhood temperature. Disconnect or pinch off those lines and do the same test and you will see nil temperature changes. The wonderful world of Megasquirt opened my eyes on that 'warms the air" myth straightaway! It heats the metal, in both EFI and Carburetted Applications. In both cases it's to prevent a buildup of contaminants on the metal portion of the body to prevent throttle plate interference/binding/sticking.
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How the flywheel is constructed is as important as what it's made of, or how much it weighs. I have a cut down stocker that weighs 15# that has a MUCH more radical throttle response characteristic than the current 13# aluminim flywheels from Midway/Centerforce. It feels more like an 11# tilton.
As important as the weight and construction is the engine you put it on, a light flywheel will make a more dramatic felt difference in a car with more torque. An L28 will be as twitchy with a 14# flywheel as an L24 with a 10# unit.
My wife absolutely hates driving my L28 Blowthrough Turbo 73 with the 15# Flywheel, she refers to the throttle pedal acting as "the on off switch" with a 3.7 OR the original 3.36 gearset out back.
Put her in the L28 EFI N/A Fairlady 2+2, and the 13.5 Centerforce is nothing she finds objectinable, even with the 3.9 gears and a Big Throat T/B making tip-in touchy on top of it!
Put the same 13.5 flywheel behind her L26 with 3.7 gearing and "it's perfect, leave it alone, don't change anything!"
Available torque impacts the felt response, absence of an inertia ring as John C discussed reduces the MOI, and makes a heavier flywheel act like one much lighter with an intact inertia ring.
I don't own ANYTHING without a lightened or aftermarket flywheel that is lightweight. If you have a decent throttle linkage that is set up correctly for progressive tip-in then it becomes eminently drivable.
The lighter weight and big throttle plate area makes for a car that ACTS like one with MUCH more horsepower tha it really has.
For a wonderful example go drive a Mustang with a V6, and then one with a V8. The V6 will shoot across and intersection on tip-in response, and then fall on it's face due to lack of torque and horsepower, while the V-8 model while lazy out of the hole in comparison to the V6 (stock vs stock here) will quickly walk away because of the torque and hp it has...
The naysayers of the lightened or lightweight flywheel are mostly parrots squwaking things they have heard from another parrot. Welcome to the internet!
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Wow those plugs make hooking up the kenescope easy!
On large industrial engines, there are kenetic taps on the head for reading actual BMEP Trace on the scope, and we had specialty plugs to hook up the the smaller (er, that is a relative term) engine without the taps for the peizo pressure sensors used on the larger units.
That plug would be very very interesting, taking a screen shot would make calculating BMEP and watching for detonation a piece of pie. You could read detonation clear as day with a sensor on that plug---for dyno tuning or realtime correction of mixture and spark advance it would RULE!
omigod! I've been pulled into the project intellectually. You bastard!
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Wow, I've never heard of that happening.
Like I said at the beginning, "TRWebb, I feel your pain!"
That line is the COMPLETE history of my MS install in the 260ZT 2+2!!!
ALLLLLLL MS power, fed through the relay box is coming from a 20A filter. It cleaned up the power pretty nicely according to the scope, and of course when the "runaway" happens the scope is never at hand, and I'm not letting it go on until I can grab it because it realllllly puts the petrol to the engine (injector firing at the same time, did I mention that?)
Believe me, I would LOVE to not have problems like this. I mean challenging is one thing, but it is coming to the rapid conclusion that "some cars you just can't reach" to paraphrase an old movie, and apparently this Red 260Z is one of them, had I more time on the ground at home to get to the car and go through it from stem to stern in a methodical troubleshooting of it once again it might be solved, but at this point after literally years of having a day to do this or that I'm rapidly reaching the point where I will toss it all in and go with something else. Last time I said that vultures hovered... don't this time please! I will use the freaking box on something else, but I just don't think it will work on this car. Maybe try it on my 73 just to prove it out...
Oh, and the battery, (take your pick, new red top ultima, new diehard, or any number of used and new batteries that have cycled through that "batery box storage point") makes absolutely no difference---it does it now and again, no rhyme nor reason to it.
Shut the key off, try again, and it may do it again....or not for another hour....
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Oh, I see it now. Along with 67 others...
Yes, I read my PM's....er, now
Congrats on Wendy and the "offspring" LOL
Nino is in football, band, and we fitted the 510 with the SSS induction system (using the Fairlady Z 2 Litre Jets and Needles) but still have to figure out how to adapt the exhaust system before trying to drive it around the yard!
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D'OH, Total Brain Fart, you are correct JM! "OA" is the common block! It's the counterintuitiveness of it all consarn it! Yes, the OB blocks came in the 50's, but were also availabe in very early 40 and 44phh's (we are talking 60-65, maybe as late as 67 or 68) By 1970, all the 40 and 44PHH's were produced using the "OA" block.
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The most important thing is that they all need to be the same carburetor. Obviously same size, but also same type. Mikuni made several revisions to the design of the carbs over the years. I'm not sure how to tell which are which. Measure the BACK SIDE of the carburetor near the butterflies to tell the size, not the front.
What I will add is there is no real reason to actually measure the bore if you have them off! 40's will have "165" stamped on the throttle plates, 44's will have "175" stamped there. A little brain scratching and you will come to the obvious conclusion what the numbers stand for...
But the point about measuring at the back IS VERY IMPORTANT if you are junkyarding and find a set. Early Toyota Carburettors used a unified casting that shared external dimensions with the 40 and 44 carbs. In these carbs (early 70's) the 40mm versions had a 44mm bore on the air cleaner side of the carburettor, and used 44mm Booster and main venturis, while having a 40mm throttle plate and bore behind the main venturi. This was great from an interchangability of parts for racing vehicles because you could use 44mm trumpets, for maximum unrestricted airflow to the main venturi. To make them "legal" 40mm carbs there was an insert sleeve that went in the front portion of the throat of the carbs to neck it down to what later 40mm Phh carbs had cast into them. On a 44PHH you will see a vestigial casting bump left over from the days when there was only one casting for 40 and 44 carbs. That bump can't be seen in the photos above, but it's there, and it would have been machined for a setscrew and jam nut to secure the front necking down sleeve for a 40PHH application (same nut and screw type that is in there for securing the booster venturi).
As far as that oddbal OEM Toyota carb, there is no way to mix up a 40 from a 44. In the production run the 40PHH eventually went to another type of casting that had a squarish float bowl cover, and that is the kind you find mostly out there. The older 40's with the same float cover as the 44 are few and far between nowadays.
Try to find at least one with the vacuum advance tube on it, they are there on Mikuini Kits on the #1 Carb that feeds #1 & 2 Cylinders, and on the front carb in OEM Toyota applications as well.
The other major difference is the "OA" and "OB" jet block difference, and I have personally never found one old enough to have the "OA", every one I have seen in 40 or 44 has had the later "OB".
People don't realize the Mikuini people got the License from Solex in France around 1960! They made those carbs for almost 10 years before the Z was around. Those early carbs with "Solex" on the tops are the ones to check for "OA" blocks, but then only if it's in the first few years of production, but 66 or 67, most everything had "OB" and those are the majority of carbs that are out there, unless you are snooping around an confirmed old-school Japanese Racer active since the late 50's...in Japan! LOL
Anyways, as for "Type" the Solex/Mikuinis are NOT like Webers where there were a million types of machining variations due to different internal passages. They were an OEM application Carburettor, and the production tooling was kept is VERY tight tolerance compared to what they ran at Weber. Believe it or not Weber bodies have much more variation in the internal passages than you would think compared to a 'cheap jap carb'! Basically if you get ANY body from a 44PHH, you can get the bits to standardize it to the other two. Check Main Venturi Size (usually 32 or 34mm) and Booster Venturi Diameter (usually 10 or 12mm). Those are the main body components that can really screw your mixture up from carb to carb if not identical. Jets, pump squirters, and small bits are obvious things that you know might be different, but the booster venturi sometimes gets overlooked, because people didn't realize there was more than one available!
If buying used, if at all possible LOOK IN THE FLOAT BOWL! Literally take the cover off. If you see corrosion, look closely and be aware that brass jets like to seize irremovably (is that a word?) into the body, so if you have a seized accel pump jet because of corrosion.... It also is an indicator of car in handling the carbs received over their lifetime. Carbs taken off a running engine are best, those that have sat around for years (without the gas being drained, water sitting in them....) can be a crapshoot.
But yes, you can construct a set, the components are available. Cheaper to buy as a set, but it can be done individually. I just found a set in Eastern PA and and am in the process of "discussin" stuff with the current owner.... LOL
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SC not working above "X" rpm? Who said that? Better tell the NHRA Guys!!!
I would also run less compression. I would NOT use the MSA header! (I know you have one...er yeah, one...) That setup will need a larger primary tube than a regular L-Engine due to the volume increase by the SC. Either Doug Thorley or Burn Stainless can assist in supplying a header or components to build one. For that setup I would make the header myself as "off the shelf" headers will not give you the correct tue length nor diameter. It's not as hard as everybody makes it sound, and if you go through Burns Stainless, the engineering fees are refundable through a credit towards a purchase of one of their merged collectors.
We passed both places while you were here with Xander! Passed Burns on the way to Porterfield Brakes, and Doug's place when going by Aircraft Spruce to my house!
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The L20A crank in the L28 does NOT yield 2.6l, but slightly less than 2.5L. This was the combination used in Bob Sharp's "240" to run in the GTU (Grand Touring Under 2.5 Litres) The engine indeed does have the possibility of having long rods.
As for the pan, I would NOT machine the block, simply alter the L28 pickup with a longer tube facing in the correct direction, and install the L20A Pan onto it, using the proper alteration for turbo oil return of course. This is the course I took when swapping an LPG powered L26 into a Box Skyline, and it worked just fine. You start boring holes and it gets expensive. Screw up on the welding, and you just find another pickup and start over!
BTW, with the weld/modify option you are able to alter how high the pickup sits off the bottom of the pan, so you can get it lower to suck oil at the high end of the load spectrum (high revs for long duration) so oil drainback is not that much of an issue. Like running another 1/2 quart in your pan without the windage drawback!
I rally didn't have a soft spot for the Kenmary for a long while, thinking them to look a bit too much like the Plymouth Sattelite my mom drove me to elementary school...but now I am coming around and wouldn't turn one down if it came my way. A Box Skyline, on the other hand, would be no hesitation on accepting it into the livery! LOL
Good Luck with the pan, it shouldn't be much of a problem. Ours worked fine, and it only took maybe half an hour to make up the tube. Nowadays I'd do a tube from SS (since I have the benders) and go all custom on the pickup, but that's over kill and there is no real reason to go that far!
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Yeah, in an EFI car with heavy PVC possibilities the hot area will slough off carbon and reduce throttle sticking.
On a carburetted vehicle it was solely due to the JT-Effect whereby air rapidly expanding at high velocity (cracked throttle plate to high vacuum) tends to chill to freezing temperatures. Thanks to some gasoline added to the mix, and it's vaporizing somewhat, it gets even colder. Any moisture in the airstream can condense at that point (at best), and in some cases stick to the intake or carburettor body where it had been supercooled byt the air and flash-freeze to make an ice buildup. This icebuildup can hold the plate open, with disasterous effects!
My VW Bus with a Zenith 32NDIX could make a HUGE ice-ball under the carb on humid days back in Michigan. I'm talking ice built up like at a cryogenic valve, sometimes over 1/4 thick. On the inside, who knows? But externaly it built up like crazy and caused drivability problems (another reason on CARBBED cars).
But on EFI vehicles it depends on where the PCV is admitted and managed. I'll lay money BMW's schematic for the PCV system doesn't allow a lot of contaminants into the intake system upstream of the throttle body like the Datsun did. Trace out a few cars, and you will find that is usually the case, PCV ducting will determine if the EFI T/B is heated or not. Unlike claims to the contrary, engines are engines, and engineering is similar no matter who builds it!
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Wander onto the wrong side of the street, and look at what you find!!!
Andy's car had at any one dyno session between 280 and 320HP to the rear wheels, the one and only time it was run at a 1/4 mile track it had a severely traction limited 13.08 at 108, with a noticable 3 second stutter session in the second third shift till the cam came back on and the tires were spinning through the traps. This was with street radials, with a 3.36 rear gearing, and a (shudder to remember this) a Predator Carburettor on an old four-barrel manifold. It picked up much more HP when we went to 45 Webers (25hp at 7500) and more again when we went to TWM TB's (over 300 hp and picking up 40hp over the webers at 8500rpm....)
ANYWAY the question was aerodynamics.
Stock, the S30 unmodified runs like .465 as stated above with a cd of 22 sq ft.
In total G-Nose, headlight covers, underpanned to the rear of the tranny with the Nissan OEM pan (PZR) and with a rake of 2-3" (I forget which) the cars drag coefficient is around .38.
I have talked till I am blue in the face about this topic, and people who discard the OEM answer of the G-Nose to improving aerodynamics are fighting a loosing battle!
Our experience in 1.3mile racing was that the car, in the Predator Carb version lost 3mph when the "Small" BRE style spoiler was on the back of the car. It was more stable from traction, but was slower. We made a run in the morning, and went 140mph. On our second run of the day, with a temperature that had risen almost 30 degrees, and no tailwind, we went 143mph---so this is actually an underestimation of the drag effects of that "traditional" spoiler on the back. Like JohnC is investigating, using an alternate wing configuration with modern design will be far more effective---if you want something that WORKS, go with the new tech. If you want ricerbling nostalgia, go with the old drag adds stability and traction old-school FRP pieces.
So with the G-Nose and underpan smooting airflow, along with a rake to prevent air from getting under the car in the first place you can get a considerable, significant decrease in Cd with the aforementioned mods. These numbers are also verifiable with some of the NIssan Literature that is out there.
Anyway, those are the numbers for the mods being discussed, and some other information.
As for the record being "only" 150mph....rent a copy of "World's Fastest Indian" starring Anthony Hopkins, put up your money, and see how easy it is...
BTW, the car ultimately went 173mph and change, and that was with .080" scores in the cylinder walls from the pressed-in piston pins walking over and making contact... Everyone said "never seen that happen before..." With good sealing bores, the car should pick up the less than 2mph needed to qualify for the "long track" at Bonneville, and then we can gear up further, and hold the throttle open for five miles instead of three.
If you think your car can stand staying within 50rpm of redline for six to ten miles, give it a shot! It's a different experience. Kind of like making a single point load run on a Mustang Dyno for two minutes 50 rpm below redline...
I'll go see Norm race next Thursday, and maybe give him some pointers in person then! LOL
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That'd be the easiest way of setting it up. The only downside is you can't run an aftercooler easily, if at all. Boost will be limited due to heat but I'm sure it'd still be pretty fun.
There are carbs out there that are designed to handle boost though. You could run a traditional turbo setup with an aftercooler. That would allow the most performance.
That is a Turbo Tom's system, and is typical of old-school draw-through technology. For what they are, they work well enough.
But what exactly do you mean by "Boost Will Be Limited"? I ran 20psi on mine (Crown Setup, basically the same thing), and that setup will easily get a full bodied ZX into the low 11's! hardly "Limited". The fuel in the turbo acts like anti-detonant, and over 17psi most people simply injected water, or alcohol, allowing almost unlimited boost---limited more by the turbo configuration than the heat issue. Anti-Detonant injection is well documented in it's effectiveness, you just need to inject enough to change state to remove the heat of compression. It's not an intercooler, and many pooh-pooh it, but it works.
As for most performance, these setups were in the 9's almost 30 years ago in Z-Cars in Japan. Those cars ruled. The EFI revolution is what made current aftercooling effective for the masses...
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TimZ, you beat me to it!
Working for Atlas Copco Compressors, that particular fact was drummed inot our heads repeatedly as in screw compressors, .2psi WILL be the difference between a compressor that runs, and one that is shutting down on compressor stage outlet high temperature...
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Oh, now that is the best argument for putting your wires inside the frame rails ever! I have seen that trick on show cars, and it really cleans up the engine bay----but that is a great shield.
i also second the comment about the anti-static straps from the rearend on cars on three different continents.
Also, fuel tankers use a static strap (as well as other flammable liquid transport trucks), so assuming you were at home, grounding your vehicle to a proper ground rod is totally possible. Using a retracting static reel (available at trucking supply stores catering to that clientelle) and clamp on ground rod, you could drive away and it would automatically retract !
Shielding on the go would be much more difficult---I don't know how effective at dissipation those axle-straps are at transmission of currents.
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When I bring up a new MS installation for the first time, I always have a stout batery changer connected. Try connecting one.
When I do that, (sometimes) the MS goes to a runaway spark situation, and the injectors fire at the frequency of the pulsed DC from the Battery Charger!
Nasty! Amusing for others to watch, but really frustrating!
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Klotz?
Now there is a name from the past!
Next, let's fire up the Rupp, and go to the races!
(I used Klotz in my Rupp 600 Nitro running methanol for hillclimbs and 100yd sprints!)
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one would question why use an L28 system when the L24 system from the Maxima is calibrated for the engine size more precisely?
The Maxima also puts the ECU under the passenger's seat, which gives you a nice, long harness with which to hack and move around if need be.
Sure MS is programmable, but the fact remains there is a properly calibrated L24 system out there already, no fiddling required other than mounting componentry...
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Oh, wow...
Now the thing up in my rafters is identified.
Alan, where in the world did you get those braces? I had put the bar up against the weldnuts in my "Mystery Car" back in Japan, and figured something was missing---those brace plates are it! The side brackets seemed to fit fine, but the gap to the wheel well just didn't make much sense.
I see they are sitting on some prints...any chance of getting those prints so I can properly fab up this part? One step closer to fabricating my 71 into something that looks like a Rally Car.....
HORROR STORY: Because I was remiss in securing my "Factory Wroks Bar" a gent came along and used one mf my rear uprights (that go to the rear floor area) as an "adjustable brace" in his project---drilled many holes through-and-through so he could slide another tube inside it and brace it with bolts. I still have the tubing....with all his added "Lightening Holes", I guess one day I will have to match that tubing for an installation....
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The RHD and LHD versions (just like the S30, S130, ....) have the handbrake on the same side.
Short of going the Line-Lock method (not technically street legal as an "emergency brake"), the fabrication of moving the transfer bar from the tunnel right to left should be pretty straightforward. Would take some welding on the handbrake lever, and some elementary cutting of the tunnel to let the bar though, but it's under cover anyway so nobody would know/see the modifications.
I know I for one would notice the brake handle moved to the other side, especially if it were functional!
On an aside, the line lock is a nice anti-theft item if you have the locking swtich. Short of someone with skates and a tow truck of some sort, it doesn't move!
Oh, this is for the use of the S30 E-Brake under-car components. What brake handle you choose to put on the crossbar through the tunnel is up to you---I would probably go with the SX unit as it would match, the "ratchet" mechanisim is a bit smoother as well...
Basically you use the stuff insdie the tunnel from the S30, and mate it with a stubshaft to the external to the tunnel 240SX stuff. The ratchet mechanisim may need some massaging and swapping between the two to make it totally functional.
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"In the olden times" injection was done at the inlet to the turbo, so that the heat of compression would cause a state change of the anti-detonant, taking heat out of the discharge airstream. In this case, unless the BOV had sufficient JT-Effect to cool the air to condenstaion point of the vaporized anti-detonant, it would stay in state and not drop out in liquid form.
Methanol may give a vapor smell in that case. Water, simply made for humidity---the R/H raising causing a less dense air mix, but the cooling effect compensating for it somewhat... This was discussed previously I won't go into that here.
As stated, routing the BOV back into the inlet of the turbine may not make for "the neat killer sound" but it can help prespin the impeller, and keep it up to speed for improved on-boost response---and eliminating the "external venting" issues of a flammable anti-detonant possibly being entrained in the discharge air.
Even it only operates on-boost, there is a lag between injection start, injection stop, and anti-detonant/air mix travelling through the piping. The argument can be made that the anti-detonant/air mix will be discharged initially on lift-throttle because that air is boosted, and the injector should not have any appreciable on-boost lag before injection events commence.
I don't know if that last one made any sense, but the air in the tubing that the BOV discharges should have anti-detonant in it, unless there is some threshold boost level where it isn't injecting. After that point, it will have anti-detonant in it. Which is a good argument for a recycled BOV line...
Given the cutoff criteria for the injector, it is possible with the setup shown could give a fairly "clean" blowoff. It all depends on the sophistication of the controller and it's ability to shut off the injector at a boost level or rate of throttle position change so as to stop anti-detonant injecton BEFORE the BOV lifts it's seat. But with a vacuum-referenced BOV, that response time is lightining quick, any lift-throttle will cause it to vent pressure. My best take is that if you sampled closely you probably would find traces of anti-detonant in the discharged air unless the tuning of the Methanol Controller was very tightly controlled!
I would question why there, and not at the inlet of the compressor as "in the olden times"---what's changed, or what is the advantage of doing it there, as opposed to the inlet of the compressor. Is this an "erosion of the compressor wheel" concern?
CAD/CAM models of 280ZX available anywhere?
in Miscellaneous Tech
Posted
please be aware that both models on that site look to be 2+2's.
not a problem for me, because that is what I have (THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!) so having this will make some nice, informed decisions about what I am going to do on the Bonneville car!
BTW, 226mph has been done in a 280ZXT Coupe in a one-way run at Bonneville in the early 90's. I believe Jkurz will have more stimulating details about what happened on that run... So aerodynamically, the vehicle is pretty stable.