Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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"my own crude methods of data collections back in the 90s were extremely dangerous and extremely risky."
Great minds thought alike during that very same time period! LOL
My static pressure probes and Magnahelics, Manometers, and Omega Rotary Switch Thermocouple reader rocketing down the road coming to realizations of "Oh, that's interesting OH SH*T! BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKES!"
A wind tunnel will be much more empirical, and more importantly SAFE!
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I have looked at the Greenlee Conduit Bender, which is a "pivoting circle" style bender. Much better than crushbending. But they are electro-hydraulic, and it draws the tubing through a die, around a circular centerpiece.
Nice bends, but $$$. Unless you have a friend in industrial electrical installations. Haven't seen a bender like this on a jobsite bending conduit for quite a while.
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But the L series is good for 7K rpm with no problem at all, and to run that stock cam is giving up usable rpm for no good reason in my opinion. Torque x rpm/5252 = hp, right? So I would think you'd really want those extra 1500 rpm...
This is what JeffP is experiencing right now. The engine has very driveable torque right off idle, and can pull foll boost at 3400rpm. With the cam now easily pulling strong to 7300+, he is finding that Horsepower Curve really[/] starts climbing at 5000 rpms, about where most "stock cammed highly boosted" engines are peaking horsepower wise.
The difference between 15 psi and 20 psi was far more dramatic than his previous build.
A good indication of what proper cam and RPM utilization can be illustrated on his prior setup, and the current build.
Previously he had full spool at 3K rpm on the small turbo, and with a larger turbo at 3500rpm. Running something like 415HP to the rear wheels at 23psi and peaking around 5800rpm. Stout...
Currently the car makes in the area of 523hp to the rear wheels at 15psi, with full boost available at 3400, and pulling the peak to more near 6900rpm. (Mustang -v- Dynojet conversions come into play to make apples and apples in this case...we noticed 15% when doing identical testing, so the dyno run below should read a peak of 525 on a dynojet, which is what the earlier runs on his page were completed with.)
Of course there was some head work involved on the last build, but the numbers were only nominally changed the largest difference was the cam profile, and a turbo to accomodate the higher flow dictated by the higher rev capability.
Torque is flat and impressive, he has a photo of one of the pulls on his webpage.
Would you classify that as "Peaky" or "Flat", just so we are all on the same page. This run cut short due to detonation, that's the dyno racking back and forth above 6300 rpms because he lifted and the BOV kicked in...
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Got some correspondence recently on someone building a Group 4 240. he decided the FRP kit was not light enough so it's going to be Carbon Fiber. Then he got it in his head that the aluminum bolts that are supposed to hold the fenders on were to heavy, so he hit the heads with a ball mill, then gundrilled the M6 bolts with a 2mm drill....to lighten the fasteners further.
Gundrilled the replacement Titanium Rear A-Arm bolts as well...
Some people say they "want to reduce weight" and from now on I will always be able to tell if they are serious when I ask "have you ball milled the heads and gundrilled all the Aluminim M6 fasteners on the car yet?" LOL!
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Instead of using the balljoint linkage from the pedal through the firewall, to the bellcrank, to the "finger linkage" to actuate the main rod that holds all the downlinks to the individial carbs, I took all that out and....
Drilled the pressed rivet side of the ball on the top of the throttle pedal. Knocked it out with a punch, leaving a hole about EXACTLY the size the 200SX throttle cable needs to snap into! Ohh, how convienient---but situated wrong in regards to plane of action. So I heated theend of the pedal where the balljoint formerly was, and bent it 90 degrees to line it up with the hole in the firewall where the bellows and throughrod goes. It bends just right (I used to have a photo posted online, but forgot where it was). To let the 200SX cable go in properly I had to cut a slot from the end of the throttle pedal to the hole where the ball was drilled out (for the cable to slide through). Slid the cable through the hole, snapped the retainer from the end onto the pedal, and loosened the throttle pedal stop screw in preparation for the new position of "full throttle". The pedal drops considerably the way I did it, making it much closer to the height of the brake pedal..."how convienient"...
Next, I took the quadrant, which fits on any 10mm rod, and slid it onto the end of my Triple's Linkage holding rod, and screwed the 200SX throttle cable holder to the top of one of the Mikuini Float Bowl Cover using the existing screws. The end at the firewall simply screws into the firewall using the two sheetmetal screws from the 200SX, looks stock, and covers the stock hole nicely!
From that point it was a matter of adjusting the pedal stop, cable length, and quadrant for the proper tension, response, and full throttle range. Much nicer pedal feel, IMO.
It's been on the "Shark Car" for quite a while. It makes it nice to switch between induction systems, and makes for an easy way to convert to one of those 240SX throttle bodies on an EFI manifold, without any cutting or otherwise hacing the existing throttle body, I already have a cable, so it hooks directly to most any current T/B out there! As Borat would say: "Very Nice!"
LOL
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"Are there some weird class restrictions that only allow certain combinations?"
That is the Name of the Game up there!
He's running "C/GMS" which is 5001 cc's to 6000 cc's engine displacement ("C"), Gasoline Fueled ("G"), Modified Sports which is where so many modded Z-Cars end up because of non-stock body mods. A MSA spoiler up front puts your S30 Coupe into "MS" class, but a G-Nose will keep you in "GT" class.
And of course, since the 2+2 is classed a "Production Vehicle" the class rules are even more obscure as we run in F/PRO, F/GALT, F/GCC, etc.
If you want a rundown on their rules, there are pretty complete and up to date rules online for the classes, as well as a TON of photos from Bonneville as well as El Mirage at the Southern California Timing Asscoiation Website:
You will find all sorts of photos of our car, and all sorts of other vehicles. It's like no place else on the face of the earth during a race weekend. When Frank and Xander came last year from Amsterdam, they summed it up best: "This is like a Mad Max Sequel, everything with an engine is out here trying to go fast!"
Indeed!
There are some more photos on my Cardomain Page of the #236 car, I don't know if I got a good head-on shot or not, here is the link:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/735451/10 (Page 11 has some shots of our LSR car, as well as some recent shots from November at El Mirage on Page 15, either jump there from the page, or substitute "11" or "15" for the "10" in the hotlink given here to go directly there.)
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what is the length on those primaries?
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Jeff stopped by this morning to raid my parts bin for his wiring harness so he can build his test stand, later he called me and said he picked up some Bosch 720CC units from Lance at Pantera Specialists and had gotten them installed into the car and went out for some testing. These are the pintile style units. He said idle quality improved IMMEDIATELY , and the car was running slightly richer than with the Ring & Disc MSD units JWT sold him for the setup---this was a straight swap from what he had to the new style injectors.
By his one run in second gear, he says now the car is behaving much more linearly in regards to the VQ Table and etc. It gets pig rich on the top end, so maybe he was having an injector problem.
"That was another $700 down the drain" was one of his comments. Genteel company dictates I not repeat some of the more spicy comments in regards to these initial findings!
LOL!
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BJ, that mirrors what we see in the Land Speed Car. We ended up adding 200# of lead shot to the spare tire well, and it netted us a nice jump in top speed simply due to stopping tire spinning at speed. Andy almost spun the car during one run after we dropped the spoiler off the back, just couldn't keep power to the ground. Added the weight and stuck like glue. Picked up something like 6 mph on that run.
On the FairladyZ with 205-60-14's it pulls something like 5300rpm with the early 280 five speed, in fifth, with a 3.9 rear gear. That's with, or without my little "tagalong trailer" being towed (don't ask why I do these tests, I just do....)
Similarly, the wife's 260Z with a late ZX five speed, the same tire/rim combination, and a 3.70 gearset topped out at 4750rpm. For like an hour leaving St. Louis across Missouri...
Both engines are basically stock. eeh...
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Radiator varies. Andy had a NASCAR fabricator make up a five pass unit for his 502 CID car, and we run that radiator when on the dyno, and we put (believe this or not) a stock radiator back in for the Runs at the lake. No radiator in these photos, that's one of the components that needed to be installed at that point...
Everybody likes the second photo... LOL!
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Within 10HP is pretty good given the cost. As long as it's repeatable then seems like the G-Tech or other unit would do well for people doing tuning at a distance from the dyno.
I know with the WBO2, and the printouts from the PASS G-Tech, you could get darned close to fully tuned before going to the dyno for "illegal speed required load points"!
BTW, my old 1st gen G-Tech was within 2 hp of my Dynojet run.
Curiously mine ran 147 on the dynojet as well! Similar mods as you: 60mm TB, stock manifold ported for T/B, cast iron manifold using MSA downpipe to 2.5" crush-bent exhaust, with glasspack resonator up front and "unknown turbo style muffler" out back. Car runs 15.30 in 1/4 with me in it, competition weight was 2695#, speed something like 88 or 89mph.
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Their buy it now was not that much better than what you could get the TWM throttle cable linkage for...
I put a quadrant onto my standard linkage and removed the balljoint sections form the pedal to the common bar on the manifold, and it's silky smooth now. Did that for about $15 Quadrant, a junkyard 200SX Throttle Cable, and a modification to the throttle pedal involving a drill, vise, and hacksaw....
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ahhh now remember Mike, my above statement was "unmodified front end", and the speed was "above 150"...
I am not disputing anyones claims when they have done "real" modifications to the vehicle involving airflow, etc.
But when someone comes up to me with a hackjob bonestock Impala Stationwagon 350 conversion, with absolutely no modification to the front end, underneath, and indeed has raised the car for "tire clearance" or "looks" and in the same breath claims the car "easily does 165 all day long" with that TH400 and 3.36 rear end...
Well, Mike, I'm sure you're in my camp in saying in this case "We will smile politely and move on to the next subject!" LOL
This happens far more often that you might think. Especially when hanging around people bitter that their V8 is slower than "a puny little six"! But that is another discussion altogether!
I mean this is not limited to the Z-Community in any srot or stretch of the imagination. i know someone who claimed their B-60 14 shod Chevelle with a 4.11 gear "spun a rod doing 160 racing a turbo Porsche"... BS is not limited to us Z-Car guys, no, not at all! LOL
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Yes, as Warren stated "@350" (which I thought I read) adds to another oft overlooked compression testing mistake by technicians who are not...er...."melticulous"... A fully charged battery is required for the engine to crank at that 350rpm from the starter.
I have had customers come in after doing their own compression tests screaming that one of the shops rebuilds "took a dump" because they couldn't get proper compression.
They were, in one case, cranking a STONE COLD engine, in an UNHEATED GARAGE (and we're talking -20F cold soak, with them going out and firing up the heater in the shop, and rolling the car from unheated storage to the shop and immediately testing while everything is still -20...), and just not understanding how I got the numbers I got the prior week when doing my compression tests.
Battery Condition, Engine Warm or Cold, Throttle Plates Blocked Open, ALTITUDE OF THE TESTING FACILITY....I mean the list of variables are endless, and many times people just disregard them, and you can't do that and expect any test to provide any usefull information!
Crossing the "T's" and Dotting the "I's" is the hallmark of a good technician. Unfortunately, through no foult of his own, Ecko is probably being fed inaccurate information from the tech, who has a vested interest in performing more heavy maintenance to cover his initial warrany costs after the come-back on the initial head gasket replacement.
Sad to say that, but in the reality of today, this is more often the case than not.
The thing to be aware of is that at least two more tests need to be accomplished: A WET compression test, and a Leakdown Test.
Wether the compression comes up or not on the Wet Test, a leakdown should be performed.
But that all comes back to Testing Methodology. If this bozo is doing a "one pump" test, all of it is out the window, as the test results are useless!
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Any lead time on when the test would be conducted. My corporate HQ is just up the road in Davidson, and I'd really like to make it into the area for the test when the time comes. I'm pretty sure I know where that facility is, I spent a lot of time driving through Moorseville last time I was up there.
Paypal forthcoming, see my latest post at the S30 Aero Thread as well for an at-speed photo on El Mirage.
I just wish it was in the realm of possibility to drag our LSR car there to see what can be done. Wrong coast! LOL!
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I'm going to cross post on this thread, as I addressed this same query at another forum...
First, the compression. My statement at the other site was "did your mechanic do a proper compression test"?
Well, this is a prime example of what I referred to: someone doing a calculation and coming up with a totally wrong conclusion.
Warren is correct in his 100 minimum, 150 normal statement---first off it's out of the FSM which is final arbiter on conflicts like this, and because he reveals the problems of mechanics not knowing how to take a compression test.
I stated in the other post "is that a one-pump number?"
Well, the theoretical measurement people are touting here is a one pump reading! Yes, the compression ratio is 7.38:1, and ON THE FIRST PUMP AT SPEED, the gauge should come up to around 90 psi.
But a compression test does not consist of only the initial compression pump!
The first pump will tell you if there is any DRAMATIC issue with teh cylinder like a burnt valve, holed piston, etc. This is why it's critical that you use a screw-in compression tester, and obsaerve the way the pressure rises.
Yes, the first pump will be around 90, but the second time that piston comes around to compression stroke, it should jump up further to at least 135, if not 150. And by the third pump it should stabilize or make the final rise to 150. Most good mechanics will then let it pump once or twice more to see what happens, but only if the compression is not rising.
See, if the thing jumps to 100, then 150, and holds there. Then everything is hunky dory. If it takes three pumps to make 100psi, and doesn't rise to 150 by five pumps, the cylinder is tired, maybe a bad valve seal leaking...whatever, further diagnosis (like a leakdown test) will be required.
If it cranks and cranks and takes a everything it has to get to 90 psi, chances are good there is a bad ring land. This is where the follow on "Wet Test" will confirm if it's bottom end, or top end. I have had Toyota 3C engines pump 60 after 10 pumps, and then on a wet test jump to 120psi in two pumps: classic worn ring scenario.
On an L, if you don't get that compression right away, and it's taking five pumps to get to 90 psi, then there is something wrong. If it's there at one pump, and doesn't rise.... then there is also something wrong, just a different thing!
The key is to watch and observe the test to see how the number is arrived at. If this guy is using a 'hold it in and push hard while cranking' compression tester...well that is about useless as they generally leak as much as they take in. If he's doing a "one pump" it's not a full diagnostic reading.
Of all the threads NOBODY has asked what the "Wet Test" results were, and apparently the mechanic is condemning the engine WITHOUT doing a wet-test!
My wife's 260 had 150-150-100-100-150-150 on a five pump style test. EXACT SAME RESULTS DRY AND WET. That told me the RINGS were FINE.
There was (my assumption) a bad head gasket, though when I pulled it I saw no channelling. So quickly I examined the valves while the head was off, and found some debris on the #3 & 4 valve sealing faces. So a quick shot of lapping compound on all the exhaust valves, slap it together, and run it. Compression was up to spec across the board, so the next day I took it on a three week 18K mile run around the country with my son as co-pilot.
Thing is, without a dry and wet test, and knowing the methodology around the test, everyone is guessing. No conclusions can be drawn form the numbers given, as IMO the WET TEST has to be done and results presented BEFORE a condemnation can be given.
But back to the "theoretical compression"---yes, 7.38:1 will give you that compression on the first pump, but like an air compressor you will keep pumping against that deadhead and should gradually build, over several pumps, a peak pressure. This is why reciprocating industrial air compressors have relief vavles, they are positive displacement pumps, and it wil lkeep cramming air into a spac till it goes boom given proper inlet conditions. The thing is with a starter driven compression test, the dynamic filling of the cylinder can not be taken into effect because the engine is not turning fast enough to have ring sealing, valve overlap, etc, give you what you are really getting in the cylinder at idle speed. This is why the FSM gives you a number higher than "static" theoretical compression. This is what the FSM gives you, and is a direct result of testing on the engines when new. Basically one pump will not dynamically give you the proper reading regarding ring seating. There is more to it than that, as I have explained above.
When aarang said 'or even knows how to use it properly???" I thought "at least someone else wonders about technical competence"---that is a big issue these days. Mechanical training is sorely lacking and like I said in the post elsewhere, old timers are set in their ways---and in many cases never received proper training in the first place. It's the old "I've always done it this way" argument---to which I will always reply: "If you screwed your sister for the last 20 years, that doesn't make it right!"
Hope this helps out, and clears up some of the theoretical tangent. 90 psi is NOT a correct pressure. Warren is correct on that, 100%!
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Here's the 2-Liter when it still had the TEC2 on it. Now it's EUC882 Driven, and the ECU was relocated to the dashboard inside.
205HP to the rear wheels at just a tad below 9000rpms. Everybody seems to like the "second photo"...LOL
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This first image is of this S30, chopped and bespoilered running at El Mirage. This car, as pictured has a speed in the mid 160's at El Mirage, about 20mph faster than our G-Nosed 76 2+2 running in Production, using production bodywork. Oh, and we are running a 2-Liter, not a 6 liter....
This car replaced the former sheetmetal (a 1970 Opel GT) when it was flat spun and endoed six times at 140+mph. The brown car is how it first appeared, and the orange paint job is how the thing ended up when fully painted. Currently this car competes at both Bonneville and El Mirage dry lakes. I have some more photos of the spoiler if anyone is interested, or you can get the rest of them off my Car Domain Page---which is where I lifted these from. There is a page there with some photos of the Land Speed Car as well, from a few years ago when I had it in the yard for some work.
Now that I have the page figured out (there was an image syntax snafu, and some pages couldn't be viewed...) I will start posting more photos there that I have taken in the past few years, just so people can compare stuff.
BTW, this orange car is the one I have the video of running at 163 on the same day our 2-liter ran 141, the difference in dust off the back of the two cars is startling when viewed on video and not static. I think the "red baloon" image you can see he's popped his parachute and it's just about to deploy (look in the dust behind the car about 25-30 feet).
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Not exactly "old" photos, but this car replaced the former sheetmetal (a 1970 Opel GT) when it was flat spun and endoed six times at 140+mph. The brown car is how it first appeared, and the orange paint job is how the thing ended up when fully painted. Currently this car competes at both Bonneville and El Mirage dry lakes.
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Hey, I had some time, and here is one of the photos from my Cardomain page, I scanned this as well as some miscellaneous images from the "Yellow Book" as well as the JDM Fairlady Z Service Manual (regarding the S20 motor and cam drive)
If you go there, you should be able to decipher the web addy from the properties of the photo I think--I know my profile at ZC.C has a link to the page as well... there is the "Camshaft Card" for the stock cams available in the JDM at the time.
Here is one of the photos from the "Yellow Book" regarding the ZG Flare Placement, you can decipher they were running 8" rims up front, and 10" rims out back, so that gives you some guide:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735451_69_full.jpg
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this is how my headlights got when i bought a clear lens golf mkII headlight and where the parking light is placed i bought a green 5w lamp and connected it to a switch inside the car.
I saw that photo and started laughing! I had green "city lights" in my car, and the Buena Park CA Police Department really didn't like it one bit.
Long story, but they cited me for "illegal headlights" stating "it's for your protection sir, nobody will see you with green headlights"---this being beside the fact that the training officer made like an Owl and had his head pivot almost 180 degrees when he went through the intersection looking at my car sitting there...
Anyway, I went to court, and it was thrown out as I explained the headlights were NOT green, the "city lights" went out when the main beam went on, and in the CVC (California Vehicle Code) they state clearly that the headlights may be any color when they are not on. This went to the definition of what "on" entails, and basically I brought out the point that the new Mercedes had an integrated running light with their new 300 series, making the "headlight orange" in the exact same way the cop defined my headlikghts as "Green". That, I think is what got it tossed.
BUT, it also states in our vehicle code that NO lights projecting light to the front of the vehicle may be Red or Blue AT ANY TIME.
Here, that can result in a vehicle impouondment as they have nicked ricers with blue and red strobes facing forward under "impersonation of a police vehicle" which is a big no-no! I would not run red or blue in any headlight beam, treading very close to a grey area that can go very wrong.
But Green, that's cool with me! I gotta love anybody who has "Green Headlights" LOL
Beating a cop with logic, in a court, without a lawyer...PRICELESS!
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Just an FYI, the Harbor Freight bender is a knockoff of another popular bender... for the life of me I can't remember the brand, but "old and established" and that brand has the dies available for a lot of different sizes of piping that isn't supplied with the HF Unit. I have done this on other HF items as well, like Paint Guns. No secret it's a Devilbiss knockoff of Binks #7 knockoff. And having a lot of nozzles and parts for those, toswap onto the HF gun makes it act just like the "Name Brand" unit. I'm sure some searching will turn up which bender they knmocked off...though off-sized dies will probably run you as much as the HF unit is total cost! (I know you can buy the HF Knockoff I-R impact gun for $58, and the I-R Tune-Up kit with bearings, vanes, and air motor parts is $58...so the decision becomes use the old parts and just replace the burned out vanes...or get a whole "new" gun that lasts the same 6 months in Industrial Service....)
I'm watching this thread now...the photos of the bends produced by the HF unit are interesting, answered a lot of my questions about this subject. Good Thread!
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I'm just mentioning it for the same reason on our turbos...
Eurospec Turbo Manifolds had expansion bellows on them, and didn't break the end studs like our US Spec units do...
The Euro Header (NLA, of course!) is set up for more severe duty and more horsepower/flow out of the box than the US / JDM model.
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Why?
Price, we are a group of bottom feeding cheapskates, and cheap rules the day.
Plus it works.
Being cheap and working are usually mutually exclusive, so it's a neat combination of those two attributes when you find them in one product.
But like Ron says, it just 'seems" like everybody is running Megasquirt. There are plenty of other systems out there (like he listed), all of which are on Z's. In the RX world, with the funky ingnition demands and funky fueling demands of the rotary, it takes systems designed around that... Megasquirt was difficult to get tuned on the rotary initially, and maybe that's why it didn't seem so popular from where you came from. I don't remember that many rotary guys on the old MS forums, but I'm sure there's a dedicated forum for them at msefi.com...just like there's a dedicated one here for the L-Engine swaps.
Like Ron said, use what you are familiar with, there is a learning curve involved with any new system. If you know how to tune one already, that makes a second vehicle that much easier to tune. Same said for support locally.
Aerodynamics DONATIONS NEEDED!!!
in Windtunnel Test Results and Analysis
Posted
Those of you who work hourly jobs, just have the boss send that overtime to another account, and she won't miss chunks larger than that!
My wife is cheap, especially at weddings. If she knew how much I donated "not to family" there "would be trouble", and to think that I'm positive there will be at least one more installment between now and then..."BIG" trouble.
Then again, knowing the amount of lift produced by a non-kicktailed S30 at speeds above 120mph in 10mph increments will make ballasting our Bonneville car MUCH more precise. No more "well it was loose on that run, add ten more pounds and we'll see what happens next month!" We know we need to run 140, we will ballast for that lift, and leave it at that.
Kind of gives "sandbagging" a new meaning as well! Ballast light so it gets loose and you have no outward indication that you are "going light" through the traps when in contention for Points Champion....