Vintage-TechZ
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Posts posted by Vintage-TechZ
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Thats awesome Joel that Tim came out to help ! SO glad to hear its running tight ! To your question about red hood etc. I think your car would look even more stellar if you simply had PARTS or AREAS of the CF showing. What I mean is....have just the lower lip of the airdam CF showing while the rest is red.
Have the bulge of the hood remaining in CF while the rest is red. Have the interior of the headlight buckets show CF while the rest is red. And maybe even leave the backside of the tail spoiler in CF while its front-side is red.
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What would california say to a 1991 Infiniti M30 with a L28et?.........if it passes the sniffer?
Engine management is currently the 1991 system the car came with.
If I've read correctly.......in order to pass, you'll need EVERYTHING emissions related the ENGINE was supplied with for its given year of build from Nissan.....NOT what the chassis came with.
Also.....I don't think you can actually go backward in engine install>chassis.
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Did I mention the 73 he wanted to trade was basically a TUB? No suspension goodies, just stock stuff. No engine, no trans... A rolling chassis freshly repainted black with big flares.
Stealth Z and Corzette probably both know the car I'm talking about --- it was Rojer Puffer's 240Z minus the hood with retracting lights he'd had installed in 1981...
When in your life will you ever get the opportunity to trade a SHELL for a complete car (1 of 417)... KNOWING what it was by then, and being HAMSTRUNG by the government paperwork...you think YOU GUYS hurt reading it. Try LIVING it, and then REMEMBERING IT!
I can, can,can't breathe.........................
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OK, here's a question: how would the smog laws apply to a generic gen 1 crate v8? I know they're used as smog-compliant repair items in earlier cars. What smog would apply? The equivalent to the original gear in the Datsun?
I'm gathering it would be held to whatever the most configurable application that the V-8 would have been used in during any given production year....and whether it was fuel injected, carbed and or utilizing an ecu for you to run it and pass the sniffer.
Am I far off here ??
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^^Pm´d back to You Sir..
My guy back home hasn't been by the shop lately to snap some pix....hopefully soon !
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This is my first post on Hybridz and so far I'm loving the forum.
I'm in the process of swapping an S54 into an old school e28 m5. I'm fortunate enough to have this car as a daily driver and is a total blast on the LA freeways. The S38-b35 is a sweet revving engine but the S54 is going to transform the car
I've been following this thread with great interest. Gareth did a great job listing the various engine types, including the MotorSport icons, and agree that shoving an inline bimmer 6 cylinder into a Z car is a great idea. After all, it shares a similar layout to the L engines, can tweak the heck out of them to get tons of HP and rival crazy V8 swaps, and the exotic nature of some of the early M engines makes a Z hybrid a really cool car.
Which brings me to my reason for posting. I have a stroked S38-b35 that is now a b37, has cams, higher compression, forged pistons, head is ported, you get the idea. So I've been looking around for a 240 shell but everything I find is rusted or thrashed beyond the point of repair. I've found many 10k cars that are pretty clean but would hate to alter such an iconic car and one that is in great shape.
So I have a few questions to help me through my drama.
* If I swap in a MotorSport S38 into a clean 240Z will I kill the value of the car ?
* With the engine in its current form producing roughly 320 hp at the wheels will the stock diff manage the power?
* I'm planning on swapping in the engine and a 6 speed trans from the Euro e34 M5 (s38-b38) and wondering if this trans will fit the tunnel. It's roughly the same size (width/height) as a Getrag 260 but 3" longer.
* As for the driveline are people taking the mounting flange (driveshaft side) to the stock Datsun diff and welding it to a modified BMW driveline ? Also, is there a center on the stock Datsun driveshaft ?
* The s38 oiling is front sump so I have a feeling I'll need to rework the pan.., not sure though.
* Do the 240s have a power rack & pinion ?
The thought of having a high winding S38 in the light weight Z chassis is very exciting. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. And if anyone knows of a good car for this project please by all means let me know.
Ron.., if you have any pics of your swap I'd love to see them.
Thanks.
Philo
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88 M5
Hopefully a Z-car soon.
* If I swap in a MotorSport S38 into a clean 240Z will I kill the value of the car ?
-Absolutely not. Only a purist would respond otherwise.
* With the engine in its current form producing roughly 320 hp at the wheels will the stock diff manage the power?
-It will live for a great while....replace it with a heftier version later when time and money allows.-( Q45-R200 +)
* I'm planning on swapping in the engine and a 6 speed trans from the Euro e34 M5 (s38-b38) and wondering if this trans will fit the tunnel. It's roughly the same size (width/height) as a Getrag 260 but 3" longer.
-I have lots of experience with the E34 drive-trains and would say that I do know the trans are compact and should fit the S30 tunnel.
* As for the driveline are people taking the mounting flange (driveshaft side) to the stock Datsun diff and welding it to a modified BMW driveline ? Also, is there a center on the stock Datsun driveshaft ?
- The S30 does NOT have a Guibo center carrier bearing, its a single shaft unit. Building your custom shaft will require the use of the Datsun diff end and tube/shaft welded to the BMW yoke end and then balanced.
* The s38 oiling is front sump so I have a feeling I'll need to rework the pan.., not sure though.
-You will need to explore this first with measurments from your motor mount choice or position and the pan plunge size. A customized oem pan is do-able due to it being cast aluminum,or go full custom pan.
* Do the 240s have a power rack & pinion ?
-No...rack and pinion....but power assist's have been done from the Subaru line.
I have a M50 non Vanos for sale for anyone interested in doing the swap. It runs great and only had 80k on it.
By the way...for those that referenced the Z4 S.I. N52 engines....those were a magnesium alloy block which gave them such light weight and 265hp. The Z4 M variant's had an iron block at 330hp. Oddly enough...the 70 hp difference barely made any difference in the 0-60 times and 1/4 mile distances. Although no one seems to have boosted the S.I. powerplants....there have been 100's of supercharged and a handful of turbo charged Z4's on the M engine making upwards of useable 450-550 hp.
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To get a standard, non-historical, registration.....
RB swap, I will be bold and say you will not be able to do that legally.
L28ET swap, as long as the engine is stock (as it came in the 280zx), you can claim it as an engine swap under California law and take it to a BAR ref and with the proper 280ZX emissions equipment it can be legally registered.
For historic registration....
There is a gray area regarding the terms "collector, special interest and histroical interest". Apperently with the correct supporting documentation, as mentioned above, one can get a historical exemption regardless of modifications.
That's my take, target range is now open for shooting up my logic. I'll PM you off line and we can work through your situation if you would like. Contact Tony as well, he knows a considerable amount on this subject and knows some of the mechanics of process better than I. I eventually swapped a bone stock L28ET (out of a 1983 280ZX) into my 1977 JDM Skyline and the Ref agent gave me the ok to get the car registered. It will forever be smogged as a 1983 280zx because of the engine swap.
Loud and clear and thank you !
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I loved the look from the first time I saw a 240Z. Then when I got into autocrossing in college, I met a fellow with a yellow 240 running a stroker with triple Mikunis in prepared or modified class, and fell in love with the sound and look all over again. As soon as I got a real job, I got my 280Z.
I love these stories..............
I was turning 16 in about a year and had mowed enough lawns to qualify for my dad's demands/requirements to get a car.
1)-Cash in hand for entire car price of choice.
2)-12 months Insurance in hand.
3)-Enough spare cash to cover emergency repairs and one full set of tires.
I always drew Ferrari's,Jag's and racing exotics.....but knew I'd probably never obtain the wealth for one. The Datsun S30 240-Z was to me, the sexiest lines for what I could swing. I researched everything I could find on them (pre-internet)....and decided I needed an early 70'.
Looked everywhere for months and then saw one on a flatbed trailer heading back into town......pulled a illegal u-turn on a four lane divided highway ,went through the ditch median...and chased it all the way to a Toyota dealership and inquired within. They sold it to me for sticker price- (original). The owner had traded it in towards a 4x4 Toy. Sr22 truck after his son died who had originally purchased it.
This would have been 1978... the car was 8 years old. I'll be 50 this November and still have it.
But not for long...I no longer have the space to store it and it needs a big effort restore to be worth anything again. I fear the rust devils have gone too far to save her.....a once rust free early 70'. For-shame.It did fuel me for much modding and fabrication skills at an early age though....and about 30+ restores over time...most all Z'z. Here is what she looked like by the time I was 19 and the 280-zx turbo was out. I had ZX turbo rims, Semi-blk. drip rails, color matched bumpers and door pulls, shaved headlight buckets, dual Vitaloni mirrors (oem maker for Lamborghini), Hella fogs,Blk. side marker light trim , bumperette delete, And custom one-off tail light lens, Recaro leather seats and matching Dino steering wheel and door panels... and my first engine swap. The 2.8 Et efi engine and five-speed. Euro bushings throughout larger front and rear swaybars...2.5" exhaust and dual slashed tips along with stainless steel dash and console bits..
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I may be misinterpreting this read..... but it still sounds like all directives require an original TYPE or series block...so no matter a straight six swap or not.....if it came with a 2.4 L series six cyl.....it won't pass with a 2.6 RB.....regardless of passing a sniffer.
Am I wrong here ? I hope so................
Because if not......I wouldn't even get my S30 with a six cyl. 2.8et passed....let alone the RB26dett ! -
It took me awhile to get my 70 Z registered only because I got it as a gift and the person before me never finished the registration correctly. The v needed to inspect the vin number in 3 different spots one of which will be be under the hood. If the DMV doesn't do it then you have to either call chp or your local pd to fill out your paperwork to take back. So since its an out of state vehicle your r33 is going to be a no no in all eyes since you might need to get it inspected since its out of state. But I will say the part of the paper work that got messed up on my car which I never filled out was a stupid l28 smog info sticker on the hood. Apparently a sticker was more important then the vin and the build date which was attach to the actual car. Good luck getting it registered, hope it goes smoother for you then me. After you done registering it you can put your r33 back in.
Currently, I still have the L28et turbo engine in place. So it would seem that I'll have issues with bringing an out of state car to register from the git-go unless the inspectors are not concerned.....however I'm not one of those people who gets away with something like this EVER.
SO until I can make a relationship with a local smog shop.-(some of you are already there)...I'm probably not going to be unable to do this without making the L28et look more like a 2.4 carbed engine....I guess ? Which with my luck won't cut it either. -
There are many threads on here that covers this in depth (i.e. search), but I'll try to summarize. Your example is also complicated by the non-USDM engine example, so here goes.
For California registration, the engine in the car must be (cars older than 1965 are exempt, but that does not apply to Z's):
1) As originally equiped for the year and make of the vehicle with ALL emmissions equipment in place and functioning.
2) If the vehicle has an engine swap from an equal year or newer USDM vehicle of the same class (i.e. no heavy truck motors in cars) the vehicle will be inspected by a BAR agent and given a emissions certification based on the year of the engine, provided ALL emmissions equipment from the donor vehicle are in place and functioning.
3) Any non-USDM engine will not pass a BAR inspection.
So to to you example;
73' Datsun S30 with BCNR R33 drive train, can not be legally registered in California. The engine has never passed EPA evaluation.
73' Datsun S30 with orginal engine and smog pump and ALL other emissions equipment installed can be registered.
The emboldedend remark is true.
P.S. Some people rely on the DMV to be lazy. 1975 and older cars do not require a smog inspection, PRIOR to going to the DMV to get it registered. There is a chance that the guy at the DMV will be lazy and not look at the engine that is installed and only look at the VIN. In this case, you might slide by with getting plates, but it is by no means legal. If you are caught later with this swap, they will pull your registaration.
See this link Got a referee ticket.....
What a shame. I had no doubt that a pair of high cell cats and charcoal canister installed could get this engines tune within CARB specs and pass or surpass their test for nox etc. But from what you've stated they wouldn't waste their time to do so.
So I'd assume that the cars I've seen driving and tagged got through their initial inspections by having the stock power-plants in the engine bay and reversed this at a later date and just took their chances on a random roadside check, just to do the dance over again in 2 years;).......that's alot of work just to be an enthusiast.
I'd HAVE to have the L series motor in place since my initial registration will be inspected as an "Out of state" transferred vehicle. I cannot imagine them not opening the hood to verify under those circumstances.
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John C thanks for actually posting useful information and for making the call. Gives me some info o go off of when I talk to my BAR guy next week.
Tony D, you didn't do anything but post life experiences just like mine. Don't take credit for others work with a long pointless post when you did NOTHING to help your side of the argument. You didn't post any real facts or data. Thanks for trying though.
This has been an interesting read for me. Particularly since I just moved to SoCal and have a few cars I'll be going through the whole 'out-of-state' processing.
One point I'm still finding confusion in........are we held to the level of OEM eqpt. smog for the chassis car or the power-plant -(being newer) ?
For example......73' Datsun S30 chassis.....with a Nissan BCNR R33 drive-train.
The S30 had only the smog pump installed.....the never U.S. legalized BCNR came with zero U.S. compliance components.
Does the Ca. law then default to their own by-laws to control your status or is this just stated as an illegal swap altogether in their eyes ? Or do they simply align a similar year of Nissan 2.6 liter engine for base-lining the U.S. compliance specs ?
I certainly hope its not the emboldened remark above...............................................................................^
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Needing some Centerlines etc. barrel style
7 or 8/8,5 on front and maybe 10 on back
shipped to 90723
Tell me what You got and let´s go from there..
I have a set of 15" Centerline classics that have polishes rims and satin -(stock) centers. They are currently in Missouri -(I'm in SOCal). They are in awesome like-new condition too. I bought them new back in the day and kept them on the shelf for 12 years before I finally mounted them for Z.
The rears do require a ZG flare minimum to be flush. Is this what your looking for ??
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Man!
The front ball joints for this thing are expensive these days!
Well ..... That's what the wife thinks anyway . Lol
That's classic,lol.
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About average i would say the gas pump reads about 10 gallons more or less.
Just not allowing the tank not to fill up im assuming. It doesnt click off before i fill or shortly after. Ive never pulled the trigger again after it shuts off it self, but ill try that next time and see if it keeps shutting off.
Oh, ok...that is key note to have. Your keeping track certainly doesen't make you nerd-like. Its in fact a smart thing to note. Dummy lights are made for folks who don't even think to do that,lol.
In some cases.....adding the cooler fuel slowly at first and then going abit faster after a few gallons can help. Maybe even try full clip speeds to see what happens ?
On another note...can you smell fumes-(from gas) after your driving down the road following a fill-up ?
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If you enjoy driving your car, just fill 1/2 way fast, then fill the second 1/2 tank slowly, paying attention not to overflow. If you like working on your car, drop the tank, replace the lines with expensive OEM lines (that will crack a year from now anyway), spend the next 2 weeks of spring driving weather cussing, and when you have totally restored your tank, you may still have the same problem. Having worked on my tank a lot-I would just fill the second half slowly. This is a nearly universal Z-car problem - call it character. Have you done your taxes this year, try to get a fuel efficiency tax credit!
It could be that the fill neck abrupt angle change is preventing even the initial fill to need to be done more slowly ? Some cars just have to fill on the slow clip due to this . Often a nozzle has a liquid sensing device that is vacuum generated and will shut the nozzle flow off when liquid backs up. In this case, liquid may be backing up due to the fill neck configuration....maybe not.
Is the nozzle clicking off before a fill ? Or is it just not allowing your tank to fill up at all, no matter how many times you pull the trigger ?
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My problem is that my fuel tank will not fill up full when i put gas in it at the gas station. My fuel gauge is working perfectly so its not that. It always reads a little bit more than half way. Its like the station pump shuts off half way as if its reading a full tank. I just dont understand. I know the station pumps sense the air coming out of the fuel tank because the fuel being put into the tank displaces the air. Do i have to like shove the fuel handle down into the filler hose or something?
Thanks,
Brent
Brent.....couple of questions here.
1)-How long have you owned this Z ? DO you know its full history in the way of body damage repairs ?
2)- Are you trying to re-fuel with the gas nozzle at full clip/max delivery/fully compressed handle ?
3)-What is the most gallons you've dispensed in the past with this Z ?
I ask #1 in case an explore of the fill neck and tank vent lines might need to be done.
I ask #2 in case your car cannot accept full delivery, rather it might do better at 1/2 clip or less and then fuel fully.
I ask #3 as a baseline study if we're getting anywhere .
Cheers, Vinny
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I don't drink, so you'll be sipping on a beer whilst I pop open a fresh, cool bottle of Martinelli's apple cider.
There is something you need to understand, however. Like I said earlier, one thing like weight distribution (that LONGER engine under the hood) is not going to kill a design, nor is it going to make it a winner. Staying true to the point, just because you put in a V6 into the Roadster absolutely does not automatically dictate that you've improved any of those attributes you mentioned.
The answer to this question is simple:
Because I (or you, or he, or anyone) want to.
There is no "optimized purpose" but rather there is a design intent and the car is modified in order to fit within your specifications. I'll repeat, 50-50 is not "perfect" weight distribution, because there is no such thing! You may still be skeptical, but Formula 1 cars and many other race-cars do not have 50-50 weight distribution. They are rear-biased, some more than others. Are you going to walk up to an F1 engineer and tell them that their weight distribution is not perfect?
The chassis can be tuned to your liking, and there is a compromise to every decision. A well set-up 70/30 car can outhandle a poorly set 50-50 car. It's all in the chassis tuning.
Rotational inertia and traction to the rear wheels are the extra pieces to this topic, the merits of which I brought up in a previous post. You want an autoX car to be able to dance around cones because of low inertia, but do you want a Bonneville LSR car getting squirrely or spinning at 200mph because of low rotational inertia? Like I said, it all depends on your design intent.
What's perfect for one is crap to another!
Oh, but it did indeed ! It was awesome fun. It made a car that already felt like it was on rails come even further alive. Also...I've never thought of this cars build as anything more than a spirited daily driver. Never meant to break any records of any sort. I was pleasantly surprised however how well it hooked from a dig. I thought it did well previously with just the addition of 10" wide wheels.
I'm a little perplexed why you would toss in F1 tech when we are speaking about a non Aero type of build. All that engineered Aero almost automatically removes any theory of street car balance. But then again, i'm not much of one to debate. I'd just rather build.
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What I'm saying is that you shouldn't discount an idea, a design, simply because it doesn't have "perfect" 50-50 weight distribution. This is an automotive fallacy, 50-50 isn't necessarily perfect. What's "optimized" for you may not be optimal for someone else and their design intent. Like I said, one single thing (like weight distribution) isn't the bane, nor is is the the sole key of success in vehicle design.
That is shedding light where there is no darkness really.....................
To your point then.....what would be the optimized purpose of stuffing a inline six into a roadster ?
Bare in mind, while I did indeed go another route with the v6...my goal was to do ANYTHING but go backward in handling,acceleration,traction and daily drive-ability. I didn't even consider a LONGER motor because I wanted to spend the time elsewhere and not chasing good handling characteristics that would otherwise be gone.
Please read this as if we're having a beer....I'm not trying to challenge you or make your statements discredited. Just see your point better.
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Unless you set it up correctly...
People often mistakenly equate weight distribution to the understeer/oversteer propensity of the car. The suspension can be tuned to match the weight distribution, among (many) other things. You can take a 70/30 car and make it have steady state oversteer. Weight distribution/location does affect the rotational inertia of the vehicle. The more centered the mass, the easier it is to change it's velocity. This is good for quickness (anything involving changes of direction) but also has a destabilizing effect (less resistance to turning, i.e. less time to react, harder to correct, more sensitive to inputs, etc.).
The other point is that a front heavy, rear-drive car will be at a disadvantage regarding traction on acceleration. There are myriad things that affect vehicle dynamics and you can't chalk up a car's handling to just one of them, e.g. weight distribution.
Veering back on topic, looks like the owner has already dropped down to $1250 upon realizing that it's a 1600 and not in the best of shape...
I can see your angle here Leon.......even a Tractor can be made to impress. But why go there when such an optimized equation is in front of you ? I began choosing battles worth fighting/working out, to keep life fun. A challenge for challenge sake is a waste imho.
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There is a Roadster out there with an L28 I'll try to get some pics.
There may be, but placing the block that much forward of the front crossmember or axle-point is a bad execution for a well handling car. The main reason I went with a v6 turbo was to be one cylinder length behind that of the U20, therefore placing the block actually behind the crossmember.
Which equates to better or improved center of gravity,weight ratio as well as more HP and Tq.An L-series 6 would make that car push like a plow.
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Here is a video of me
.I was waiting for you to growl at the video camera near the end,lol.
I have the Wolf 3D still new in the box and have yet to install it.
But it really sounds like the cycle of compression is missing the ignition timing fully. You are close.
Your engine bay looks great btw !
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Oh ok cool. The guy I got it from didn't know where it came from either, and couldn't find anything on it online. Only whale tail I could find was the fiberglass MSA wing.
Idk if I'll rock it or not, I've never really been one for whale tails.
Wash it good and in the sun look it over closely-(top to bottom) and I'll bet you'll find some denotations embossed from its maker like maybe ...Foha or Eberhart or someone like this.
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Seems I recall the "Turbo Tail" was marketed through a brochure company like PB Tweeks at one time. Its a polyurethane molded one piece part with no finish aside from its black injection dye.
Its a knock-off version of the popular Porsche rear wing/tail.
You could lightly sand and prime/paint with flex additive to make it age and look better. But it would need to be handled with care so as not to flex too much and crack.
But not for long...I no longer have the space to store it and it needs a big effort restore to be worth anything again. I fear the rust devils have gone too far to save her.....a once rust free early 70'. For-shame.
Post pics of your z's here!!
in Non Tech Board
Posted
Don't mention it. I'd love to see you do it..............
I even think I'll do mine this way. Lots of color with the CF tech added.