Mikelly

Quite a bit of mine was NOT done in the car... Crazy, different pathas by different builders I guess. I started with an AutoPower 4 point bar, then went to the guys Jim also used and had them add the front "HALO" and door bars. They did it all bolt in, due to the rules I was under at the time, but welded the front halo/ a-piller together and just bolted the door bars and the footers in. Now, this is good timing as I am planning to capture my cage and all related parts in photograph as my cage is currently out of the car and I'm redeisgning the whole thing. I will add a below the dash horisontal bar, and tie the front below the dash bar to the rear head brace, tie the front down tubes to the fire wall, and add additional bracing at the rear. All footers will be welded as well. All this means than there will be considerably more welding done in the car this time around since I'm going to weld everything in. I want this car to be bomb proof, especially after Scarp's incident! One common way to make life easier for you in the install process is to remove the rear 1/4 windows to allow tubes to slide through more easily. Remove all carpet, plastic and interior, and cover all else with flame resistant mateerial. Mike ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/dat74z/myhomepage/auto.html "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Yup Scottie, what I read and was also told by folks at Triangle Engineering is that they actually act like an aluminum lung and expand and contract... The more fuel you have in it the more stable it is as far as presure goes. What they told me was that the foam actually stops that. My cell was an RCI unit and is made by the same people that make them for triangle engineering. This is a common problem apparantly with aluminum cells. Funny that they sell them without foam. Scottie, most any speed shop can get you the fuel cell foam.. Go out to www.racerwholesale.com and get it from them.. they are close to you (Georgia) and you should have it in a day or two... if they don't list it online, don't fret, give them a call... they carry it. Mike ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/dat74z/myhomepage/auto.html "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Ross, ALL very good points. I used to swap a lot of wheels and tires out when I did road events and autocrosses. The Aztec is about 18-19# which is great. However, the rubber us where I will take the hit. If I notice a huge stopping issue, I will be upgrading to 13 inch brakes, which I'll probably do anyway, just for safety sake! Interesting info about those RX7s you mention. I'd have loved to gotten your MOMOs, but getting that third wheel and converting lug patterns was more than I was wanting to deal with. Mike ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/dat74z/myhomepage/auto.html will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

FastDriver, I've checked with those guys and with Weld Racing as well... Both are expensive. The reason I was looking at hub adapters was strictly cost. It would be nice to get the wheels I want and the tires I want in a package price... Not likely though... and what really cheeses me off is the fact that the wheel making community has all but abandoned the Zcar. Few wheel makers will custom make your bolt and backspacing for a Z. Centerline is one of a handfull that will. The 17X9.5 Aztec that I will likely buy is $239 through Summit Racing. Would have been nice to get it a little cheaper! Mike ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/dat74z/myhomepage/auto.html will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

MSA sells them cheap... $99 per pair front or rear. Go to my featured ride article and check the rears out on the car. They are nice and allow for added tire width. I'm installing front flares to match onto a tilt front end in January. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

There is a Company called MAS that sells the complete kit for $499 plus $59 for hinges and then shipping. I'm ordering one in January! I have heard mixed reviews on the quality, but after hearing BLKMGK's horror story of getting the VREngineering hood delivered, mounted and painted, not sure I'd go that route... I think he has close to $1000 just in getting it ($300 + Shipping), getting it fitted and getting it painted.. Might as well have gotten a front clip for that much. MAS advertises in Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords and other car mags... Don't have the number right now, but I'll post it when I dig it up! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Yup, I'd go for the GM Goodwrench $1200 Crate motor with warranty. You could get a brand new motor less the intake for that. Can't beat it for the bang. Save your money and get one of those. Then when you can afford it, stab in a new cam and aluminum heads and you are pretty much there. If you go the JY motor route, I'd still recommend replacing the rings and bearings, which will also call for a gasket kit. If you can get a motor already running in a car, then you can get compression readings and find out what you are getting, that way you could forgo the re-ring and re-bearing of a motor. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

My take on those outter bushings in the rear is this: You really don't need to remove those. I have never seen them flex, never felt them flex, and they are absolutely a pain in the A$$ to get the pin out without butchering it. Some fall out with no trouble, others are just difficult, period. However, and maybe SCCA or someone else who races can confirm this as well, I have done the inboard units and left the outter factory unit in, and then replaced it afterwards and honsetly, I couldn't tell a difference. That factory bushing is so thin on the outter and there is so much more metal than bushing AND it is pressed in so tight, I doubt it needs replaced unless the rubber is seriously deteriated. Thats just my take, but I don't see the need to do it unless you are replacing the whole arm with a tubular unit. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

He knows what he is talking about guys... Trust me, there isn't much mark up at all on Mike/SCCA's coil over kit. Now, I'll warn all of you (And Mike Don't start laughing yet...) to make sure you get the right size threaded tubes, which goes back to an earlier post I made about people doing their research.. I just got that deal on my coil over tubes... They are from AFCO and work GREAT on a 240Z tube, but do not work on a 260-280 tube as those are slightly larger in diameter (Like maybe an 1/8 inch, but enough so that these new threaded collars and perches are not gonna work on my car. I'm taking them to Jim's (BLKMGK) house tomorrow to see if his will work on mine and if they do I'm gonna swap him for the ones he got from SCCA. So Morgan I'd say that you will probably not be able to use those from the hondas. When I recently bought a Sport Compact Car mag, I to was shocked at how cheap you could get a complete coil over kit for hondas. but as Mike/SCCA points out, you get what you pay for. When I called a couple of those venders, they couldn't tell me what the spring rates were or the length of the threaded tubes... Not very re-assuring there.. Coil overs are the way to go though, because you can really dial the car in for exactly how you want it set up. (Now SCCA, Now you can laugh.. I earned it.) Mike "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk [This message has been edited by Mikelly (edited December 09, 2000).]

This is yet another testimonial to the great site this has become. I'm glad we were able to bring you out of the ranks of the lurkers Mike!! 400 members down, 1000 to go!!!!!!!!! WOOOHOOO! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

All very good points! Thanks guys... Not sure what I will do now. Centerline wheels are gonna run me about $960 for the set which is 17X9.5 and are superlite (just shipped some 15X8s and two per box weighed 35# including packing matterial!) and quality is good on them. I was trying to get Ross' MOMOs to workout which would cause me to convert to 5 lug, which isn't bad except I was trying to get everything and get it done for about $800, which won't happen. If I have to spend $900 and take the time to convert to 5 lug, might as well buy the right wheel to fit my existing pattern instead! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Well I was trying to protect the honor of the person who left the underoos in the motor JIM!!!!! Anyway, just pulled up Petes Dynosheet on your motor and it was 390hp, not 425hp, which is still nothing to sneeze at! I'd have to agree though, the ZZ4 ZZ5 motors are a tremendous bargain. And remember that all that forged stuff you pay these custom builders for is not really needed unless oyu are gonna make 600+ HP and are spraying tons of nitros or supercharging it. My builder could have sold me a complete forged bottom end, but advised me otherwise based on my application. His words to me were that he'd rather see me spend the money where was getting the biggest bang for the buck. And as my Buddy Chris has found out in his research, be careful when shopping for forged parts... Lots of that stuff is designed for short spans at high RPMs. That makes great pieces for drag racing, but sucks if you plan to go to a road course and do laps continually at high RPMS! My builder spec'ed the bottom end with LT1 rods that were race prepped, used a scatt crank and hyper pistons. I made certain I wasn't gonna spray nitrous and no forced induction would see that motor. Instead, we spent the money on the induction. Full roller hydraulic valvetrain, nice heads and intake, and all the right parts to make the motor bomb proof.. Zgap rings, Clevite bearings, Mellings pump Cloyes TR timing chain, and ARP everywhere! Bottom line is do your research, make a plan, communicate that plan to the builder, and stick to that plan! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

I personally like the Cobra R style wheel and would love to get my hands on a set. Guess I'm gonna have to decide if I'm gonna stay four lug or convert to 5 lug. I just got new rear rotor so those would have to be considered a loss as well... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Looking for info on hub adapters, who sells them, what they cost... I'm weighing my wheel options here and I'm really wanting a set of wheels that are wide enough for the tire I want to run and have enough backspacing! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Myron, I think he is referinf to the front Diff... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

OK lets clarify here what a crate motor really is... The magazines have really hosed up this term.. Crate motors are generally termed in reference to a factory built unit from GM, FORD, MOPAR... Specialty builders who also offer the service of providing a complete package are now being lumped into the same category but don't be fooled, American Speed, Speedomotive, Bow Tie, and others are not building assemblyline motors. The two I reference above are not assembly line built. WE spec'ed the parts that went into the motor and gave all the data on the application. For me personally I spoke with Ed Isky Jr. about my cam grind and what I wanted out of the motor. I made certain the builder knew what the intended use of the motor was and where I would spend most of my time and at what RPMS.. That is really key. Make sure you get a plan together and then stick with it. Write down everything you tell the builder, and make him send you a build sheet ahead of time so you remember 6-8 weeks later just exactly what you bought and make sure that build sheet reflects ther build sheet you get with the motor. Believe me, once you start doing research, you'll forget what rocker ratio you decided on, what size the valves are, straight or angle plug heads, and all sorts of other stuff motor related. Sounds like that guy gave you a good price... check his reputation and shop his build sheet around. If it checks out GO FOR IT! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Thanks for the encouragement Ross! Mike/SCCA and I will apparently have to agree to disagree. However, it would seem that he has something to loose here, or he wouldn't have been so irritated. I can understand that as Mike/ SCCA has worked for a while amassing his parts and doing research to find out what works on the race track and what doesn't. Bottom line folks is that there are distributors out there who will sell to the public all the parts that some folks have worked very hard to put together and sell as kits. Some of these folks have done the research and tried the parts to make sure that they work before selling them. These same folks guard their secrets like gold, for two reasons I suppose. A: they want to make a profit off the products they sell (MIke Isn't in this category as his prices are reasonable), often times having the items drop shipped to the customer directly from the manufacture and B: Because they have carved out that nitch for themselves and are considered and "Expert" in that field and like that respect and notoriety. I personally like doing it the best AND cheapest way possible, and don't see any harm in doing that. It is called being smart and cutting out the middleman. As for the deal I got on threaded sleeves and collars, well maybe I'll see if I can get them on a bulk deal, who knows... Pass the saving along to you guys.. we'll see. Mike Kelly KRL ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Um SCCA/ Mike, What's the point of my post? Dude, guys score big all the time at the pick and pull and post to the board about their "DEALS" they fell into that none of us got... I was relating my deal... could others get the deal? I don't know, didn't inquire about it. I wasn't trying to get the "DEAL" as it was offered to me when I inquired about parts and availabillity. I wasn't trying to get a "deal", didn't solicite it, it was offered. As for the top perch, As Pete Paraska pointed out at his home page, you don't "NEED" them, as a piece of welded tubing will center the unit in place. Oh, and do the math based on what I got... $100 for everything (which in their catalog was $136) BUT the springs. Hypercoils will run me $220 total for the set... So I'm into my coil overs cheap at $320, which by the way was the message I posted. The only reason I didn't order them was because I'm not sure I don't want to go with Eibachs yet... Why the tone of your post? Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk [This message has been edited by Mikelly (edited December 05, 2000).]

I was on the phone with one of the guys from Port City Racing today and getting prices on heim joints when we switched subjects and started talking about what else I need for my personal car... Guy let me have four 7 inch anodized blue threaded tubes and matching threaded collars for $100!!! Said it was obvious that I would be buying lots more stuff from them in the near term!!! Cool! Now I just need to decide on springs! MIke ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk [This message has been edited by Mikelly (edited December 05, 2000).]

Yup, I hear ya, but what is cool about some of these crate builders, they aren't assembly lining them... Bow Tie, Speedamotive, American Speed, Beck Racing, those guys let you pick the parts.. My motor came with Zgap rings, ARP Wavelock studs and bolt kit, roller hybraulic valve train, aluminum heads and intake, ported and matched, all the top shelf stuff... $3800 from intake to oilpan... Jim (BLKMGK) just had a 383 with forged pisonts and rods built for $4700 complete and his is internally balanced! You simply can't beat their deals now days, making it much easier to do a swap! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

I'm a big time crate motor fan... Good reason: There is a member on this board who built his motor based on my project, and they used 6 inch rods instead of 5.7 rods... Guy is a mechanic by trade, but I think he usually does OEM work. While clearancing the block for the rods he went a little thin on #5 cyl... Motor ran for 1 hour before a nice big milkshake was made in the oil pan... I have spoken to this guy a number of times and I think he is VERY capable. The problem you run into with custom combinations is that if you don't do them EVERY DAY for a living (Like the crate builders do) you will miss some of the little tricks of the trade that make great gaines in power and reliability. I have built a number of motors in my day, and throwing together a Chevy is about as easy as it gets. However, I didn't want the headache and stress of building my motor, swapping out my electrical system, upgrading to an aluminum radiator, cutting out the rear for a fuel cell, wiring in new gages, plumbing the cell, sorting out a T56, and fixing a battery box rust problem, all while I was sorting out the head/ cam combo, rods, compression...Yadayadayada. I think converting a Z for the 1st time is a huge undertaking, make it as simple on yourself as possible.. When I bought my 383 crate motor I priced all the parts for the build and I would have saved $600 on the build sheet. However, that wouldn't have gotten me to completion... machining the heads and intake, painting the internal side of the block, screening the oil ports, assembly, degreeing the cam... and I don't do it every day. Now, there is another member here on this site who assembled a 351W and forgot to remove a grease rag when he sat the heads down on the block and bolted them on... Sounds dumb doesn't it... Or does it.. How many times will you get interupted while trying to do everything yourself.. how many EXPENSIVE mistakes will you make? Do you even have the right tools? The crate builders have made it so cost effective to buy their product complete and they now offer warranties... You won't get that from building it yourself. I know, I know, nothing like put one together yourself, but there are so many other areas that will need your attention... Just my .02! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

All good info to have... good job Lone! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

Randy, Our design will be on the same "theme" as Simon's with a little twist on the design. Stay tuned... We will be making front and rear units that will allow you to adjust all points by loosening a jam nut. That is the whole purpose behind doing this...ease if use! Mike Kelly KRL ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

I'm polling the masses here to see what you guys would like to have on a wish list for carbon fiber interior and exterior parts... Understand that I'm trying to get a concensos of what you guys would buy, and also understand that the matterials are esssppensssivve!!! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk

The guy at the Shop indicated several things: A: My control arms are way trick! B: A real bitch to adjust C: Because of B, the price goes up D: Those aluminum bushings at the rear are junk and hard to adjust. E: Because of D and B the price goes up. Now, I propose that what SCCA says is true to a point. I think people will want these control arms for the hi tech "Cool" factor, and people will want the adjustability. If you are way serious about racing and change your settings week to week, plan to buy camber plates as well. However, as many will attest to, camber plates are noisy and not very "Street Friendly". If you are gonna run an agressive street setting and maybe change it a few times per year, then the control arms would be cheaper in the long run, because the shop wouldn't charge extra for removing the inner bolt and adjusting the heim joint constantly to get the right setup. My car was on the rack for almost 2 hours and I was helping the guy and he still charged me $100. He was gonna charge $200, but I helped him and educated him on those cheesy bushings in the rear... Again, I believe that the average Joe gear head doing the occassional Car guys track event or weekend autocross will absolutely want these control arms, and I know for a fact people will want the rears. We will be selling the whole kit in a package price to include a pair of adjustable TC mounts, front and rear adjustable control arms with Heim dust seals for a very reasonable price. We will also sell individual components. What I can promise is this: The kit will be much cheaper than the Arizona Zcar prices qouted, and quality will be very high, and we will be much more accessable than Dave at AZC. We may also sell coil over kits, minus springs.. I have a source for those components as well, so we'll see. I say minus the springs because guys can porder their own springs from any place and people have different preferences, I'd let the buyers acquire those themselves...But sleeves, collars and perches for $130-150 (Depending on the supplier) would allow guys to buy the components they need and shop around.. mix and match... That sort of thing.. Stay tuned for that. Once we have a production unit done, We will post them on Chris' website. Bottom line is We are making these control arms, and if they sell then we'll all know what Zcar guys want. If they don't sell, or if we get bad reviews here, then we will know that this wasn't the way to go. I have a chunk of change to invest in car ideas, this is only one of several. If this one hits a home run and we sell only 10 sets, then I met my goal. Its an experiment SCCA, we are testing a market, thats all. Next, lets all move over to the Body and paint forum, as I'm polling the populous on carbon fiber wishlists items... Mike Kelly Kelly Racing Ltd. ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk