bjhines

We are trying to satisfy a lot of different people's desires... We want to get data on the most common aero parts and mods for our cars... but we are finding that there are a lot of parts that may not work.. or may make things worse... There are also a lot of things that have not been tried... SOME of the mods we are testing may be a little over the top for the Z car community in general... but we are keeping a goal in mind... We want these things to be within the realm of the average fabricator... We dont want to significantly change the body shape of the S-30 cars... I didn't want to scare anyone off... but at first glance... the Aero experts don't think much of a lot of the parts available... and we need to address things like flushing the glass that a lot of you won't want to change... We are also running into some issues with the underpan and diffuser that may make the cars DANGEROUS to drive...

Here are some pics to chew on.... Front splitter Front splitter 2 This is what we expect to end up with... A flushed rear window... otherwise NOT the right rear lip... interesting deck treatment... I want to try this... notice the flares are widened in front of the tires.. This is more like what we expect to use for a rear spoiler... notice the side strakes... but imagine the deck lip laid back more... Wind tunnel with a 280ZX... just for fun... it is an improvement over the S-30s ...

Headlight covers..... YES...

Those splitters and diffusers are VERY EFFECTIVE... TOO effective... The cars that use them run very low to the ground with very little suspension travel... they have highly modified underbodies ment to use more than just a flat bottom and an upturned back end to get the effects they want... the entire car and suspension were designed around using the undbody aero effects... We cannot make use of these modifications on our cars... the first problem being consitent ride height and attitude... the second problem is there is no room for the tunnels without a tube frame chassis... The 3rd problem is the fact that the first 2 problems make these things highly unpredictable... downright dangerous...

The cars that use the underbody for downforce also have tunnels that are not included in the underbody picture... that would require changing the floorpan of the car... our unibody cars are what they are underneath... We are planning on testing a lower front splitter in combination with an underbody pan and a rear diffuser... but the owner of this car has already removed it due to instability at speed... and he could not get the car on and off the trailer or perform any work on the drivetrain without removing the underbody parts... We are not holding out for any great results from this addition... and the wind tunnel operators concurr... We expect to be able to reduce drag while increasing downforce in a straight line... but a combination of factors could make the underbody stuff more dangerous than is tolerable... A worst case situation has the car moving at 130MPH and braking hard for a turn... the nose pitches down and the tail rises up... the downward angle in front means the the splitter suddenly increases downforce IN FRONT OF THE FRONT AXLES... This suddenly loads the front end and unloads the rear even more... Then the wake from behind the car rolls off the back and begins running under the tail... When the driver slams on brakes... The front lip nearly touches the ground... airflow under the car is suddenly cut off... air pressure under the front of the car suddenly drops....the wake of air following the rear of the car suddenly slams into the rear end and finds this huge diffuser there(and low pressure under the car also draws air in toward the diffuser)... the diffuser gives the air something to push on and lifts the rear even more... As the driver tries to figure out WTF is going on... the rear end begins comming around... the car presents it's side to the wind in a yaw angle and then it gets exciting... Imagine thinking to yourself "I wish I didn't recklessly add the underbody parts" while you are slowly rotating upside down in mid air....

1. We are planning on testing a BONE STOCK concourse 240Z as it came from the dealer the day it was new... shiny paint and all.. everything... This will be our baseline... We will get detailed information from this car at a variety of angles of pitch, yaw, and roll... over several runs... We will also try to determine airflow around the radiator and the engine... We will remove the front splash pan for one of these runs... That is the only modification we will try with this car.. ======================================================== 2. The second car we test will be our test mule... This is the car that will be used for 95% of the testing time... It is a 1976 280Z... We will be screwing, gluing, and taping everything to this car... It will be tested at a variety of ride heights and with 7" wide wheels and with 10" wide wheels... We are still developing the parts list...

Please use this Thread to discuss Aerodynamic testing candidates... I really want this to be a broad community development process... Post pics and please use whatever photo editing skills you have to point out specifics....

We need to start another thread in the Body kits/paint forum... I have one titled Aerodynamic Testing Candidates...

Hey... update on the Pantera Hatch... I have talked some more about the testing schedule... It looks like the Hatch mod has enough interest that it is going back on the board...

HEHE.. now that I read the Porsche article... They had a serious fuel consumption problem... It sounds like the big wing needed to go in the trash... and besides... It is a rear engine car with plenty of rear end weight... why the big friggin weing...????

Fairings to hide the transition between the roof and gutters... Think lots of duct tape and cardboard... JM... the Moby dick Porsche has exactly the kind of body shape changes we would have to make for the S-30 Zcars... We are trying to get as much improvement as we can without going to that extreme... The Porsche design also shows the lack of full scale testing that would have shown them the need for flushing the windows as well... and the tall wing is more likely hurting more than it helps... unless it pays dividends in stabilizing a twitchy, buffeting car...

We can "hide" the gutters... We will be working on ideas for the gutters... But removing them may hurt more than it helps.. especially if you need side windows open for safety... Having a window net installed also keeps air out of the cockpit...

Absolutely this will help those of you with body kits... all of the things I outlined above can be used on S-30s with body kits... A lot of these mods seem like tiny changes.... But the tunnel operators showed us data on an old Fiat that had some similar changes made and the performance changes are ASTOUNDING!!!!! We also looked at some data for the Land Speed Record Camaros and Trans Ams... The Data shows that the smallest changes to the top surfaces of the car can make HUGE changes in airflow at the rear of the car... There is a GOOD REASON every single car made today has flushed glass... DAMN GOOD REASONS indeed... It seems that flushing the glass can be one of the BIGGEST improvements we can make without significantly changing the shape of the body... Notice I DID NOT say that we would shave the gutters off the car... Considering we must leave the side windows down at most track events... We need the gutters to keep air OUT of the sides of the car... that does not mean we won't be fairing the gutters though... Another interesting tidbit about rear lip spoilers... They do work... but at the cost of HUGE amounts of horsepower... that cost growing ever higher with speed... The typical nearly vertical angle of the BRE S-30 rear lip spoilers is not deflecting airflow the way it does for more modern race car bodies... We need to EXTEND the back of our cars with a rear lip the lays out almost flat... add some side strakes to that rear lip and it would look like a 3-piece lip that was layed out flat(nearly horizontal)... We are betting that we can get even more downforce with a REDUCTION in DRAG... One benefit of the typical BRE and 3 piece rear lips is their ability to stabilize the car... like a tail on a dart... Instability on track(especially in traffic) may have driven the need for the tall nearly vertical tails... The way to address this is to improve overall stability with an Aero package that addresses all the problems from front to rear... (without changing the overall body shape) The Goal here is to get BALANCED and IMPROVED aero performance from our beloved little antiques... They were designed for style not parting the wind in a controlled manner... The Pantera Hatch has been blown out of the sky as strictly STYLING... It works for some designs.. but the S-30s need the stock hatch The idea of mounting a large "ricer" wing ANYWHERE on the car has been chucked out with the trash...

Whooo hooo.... I just got back from visiting the Facility... I paid a $1500 deposit to get our testing done at the end of March... Through much deliberation with all parties in volved in the testing... We decided late March is best for everyone... I drove my track 240Z there as an example for the operators to see... We spent the better part of 4 hours going over the testing procedures and getting a good idea of what to expect... Here are some pics.. Adjustable ceiling ... I have to admit... the amount of information that was spewed out so effortlessly by the tunnel operator.. absolutely BLEW MY MIND... I am physically tired after that crainial download... I will also say that there is MUCH MORE to this stuff than has been considered by any of the discussions on this forum... On the other hand... The brighter lights in this community have put forward some little tidbits of info that now make MUCH MORE sense to me... A car is not an airplane... although it does move through the air... but make no mistake about it... there are very few things about car aero design in common with aircraft designs... very damn few... That was the source of most of my confusion as it is for most laymen... Another interesting tidbit that many of us know... but it was nice to hear it from a reliable source... The stock S-30 body absolutely sucks butts... It may not have a large frontal area... and it's drag numbers may not be as bad as some whips... but the aerodynamic balance is HORRIBLE... It is going to take some pretty serious body mods to make a Z-car perform at speed, on track, and in the turns(alongside modern cars)... You might as well start over with a newer car... DAMMIT!!! It is also interesting that many of the common mods can make things worse.. and getting the body really close to the ground and sealing off all the air under the nose can be a WORST CASE stability situation... The G-NOSE is one thing... but the cars really need a G-TAIL... The guys that run the tunnel are highly interested in our antique aero project cars... They have some good experience with older bodies in that tunnel... We are sure that improvements can be made... We will be trying not to change the overall body shape... but we will be making some subtle modifications that will be obvious up close... 1: Flushing windshield, deck glass, front of side window openings, and quarter windows. 2: Adding some trip strips to the leading and trailing edges of the roof(same as VGs). 3: We will be sharpening and extending all of the trailing edges in the rear 4: Changing the rear skirt profile and cleaning up the underbody 5: we will be closing off 90% or more of the grill area 6: we will be modifying the wheel opening leading edges We will also use these mods in conjunction with typical front spoilers and rear lips... and as many other items we can get our hands on... G-nose included... Im making my list and checking it quite a few times...

Man... Without testing for voltage at the appropriate places.. I can't tell you shiat... If I were stuck in the desert with no access to a meter I could test it out with my tounge and tell what is wrong... I like to call that the "LICK TEST"... Without buying and using a voltage tester you are in the dark without a flashlight... But I will tell you that points can be a pain in the ass on a regular basis... You have no concept how bad points really are until you get some experience with them... The Pertronix unit is easy to install and it gets rid of the problems with setting points... and the wear issues, and the piss poor spark... That is the FIRST $80 most people spend on a 240Z-car... It is certainly one of the TOP MODS on my list... That aside... Have you confirmed that the points actually open and close as the distributor spins...????

That is bad news... But it can be expected from any dirt cheap parts... I like Autozone.. they have sourced some parts for me in the past like NSK wheel bearings and other parts that were the same name brands that everyone else sold for more money... When you are looking at their computer screen... WHY would you choose the cheapest part instead of the name brands we recognize??? They always have choices... Lately... within the last 4 or 5 years... Autozone has quit carrying many parts that fit our cars... But that is the case with nearly ALL parts stores.. including NAPA... I use World Parts Distributors... They only deal with mechanics... so you need a buddy with a shop... But they have EVERYTHING...

Remember that is a 5-lug conversion with a specific brake modification... That can have it's own inherent costs... and brake system limitations...

That is a nice find and a great price... and it fits our Hybrid style needs as well...

Here ya go..... This is stooopid money for wheels... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-PANASPORT-16-RIMS-240SX-DATSUN-510-240Z-280Z-AE86_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43955QQihZ004QQitemZ140061756986QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V Panasport RS-8s... 16x12"... $3500 USED... although I think this seller has his head up his ass... It was my understanding that they were available new for less than that...

I have a set of 15x10" with 5 1/4" back spacing... Revolution Wheels... Classics... I will more than likely be parting with these... I have to see if they will clear the AZC Willwood brake calipers... If not.. out they go...

Here ya go... Here are som detail pics... passenger side rear attachments passenger side roof attachments passenger side front roof attachments... Drivers side front floor attachment... drivers side roof attachments... Door bars... ...

So... I guess what we have here is a wide selection... The wheel of choice for modern Hybrid Z-cars is going to be a 17" dia. to clear aftermarket brake kits... That said... Street cars probably don't need more than an 8" wide wheel... Hybrids that are running on track need a 10" wide wheel... especially since this 17x10" wheel has a lot of tire options at a reasonable price.. and there are lots of used race tires in this size... Considering most of the Hybrid drivers are using 3 times the horsepower of most S-30 cars... We have some unique needs.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Steel wheels are hard to find and end up being custom jobs when they are made in 17x10 sizes... There are a few... I'll add link here... Most of the cast aluminum wheels are limited to 8" wide... so that pisses away a whole lot of the cheaper selections for track drivers... A lot of those affordable wheels' prices go through the roof when you request a custom width... but they are available... I'll post a link here... Then there are the high dollar custom race wheels... like I said.. Custom=High $$$$ ... Usually to the tune of $2500 or more a set... I have been through long lists with a variety of options and detailed specs on literally hundreds of wheels that ALL COST AT LEAST $750 EACH... damn!!!! just for fun I have put together custom specs just to have $1500 each quoted... I was just being a pain in the ass for that quote... Gimme a break $6000 set of freaking wheels... Here is a pic of me balancing some freaknut$$$$$$$ wheels @ Sebring last January... Winterfest PBOC event... They go on THIS car... 200+ MPH Daytona Prototype... the guy brought it out for test and tune.. and to scare the shiat out of the Porsche GT cup drivers... lol... He DID!!! Here is another shot of some GT CUP bling... These were just reassembled and painted with a couple of rattle bombs that morning... damaged the day before... ....

Knowing what I know now... I would love to pour over a Works car with a camera....

I always liked the fact that the S-30 TC rods are mounted behind the front crossmember, near the firewall and the doubled frame rails... and it keeps their weight rearward as well... If I were going to convert to the S-14 suspension... It would be to convert to rear steer... Which is one reason the TC rods face forward on the S-14... and the steering knuckles bend INWARD... Think about the fact that the high offset wheels and brake disks on the S-14 need the inward bends on the steering arms for clearance... If you convert to front steer you will never get the steering geometry correct without hitting the disks... The whole conversion to S-14 would be to use it as it was designed... otherwise you might as well custom fab the entire suspension... Many more improvements could be made using off the shelf racing components...

oohhh..... post some pics of the padding please...