DIY CAS for L28ET angle settings

[macambra]

I've had my S130 turbo running with the DIY CAS 12-1 disk for a few months. I've had it running pretty well at 355 degrees. I'm curious what everyone else is running just for an overall reference.

 

My Specs:

 

L28ET F54 block

Schneider stage 2 .460 lift cam

Schneider 110 seat pressure valve springs

P90A converted to manual adjusters

T03/04 hybrid chinese turbo

ArizonaZ 12.5 lb steel flywheel

Six puck,solid disk,ceramic clutch

440cc injectors

Palnet fuel rail

MS2X Single coil

[kaito]

Mine was running at 355 also but I removed the dizzy for some engine work and when i reset the timing I set it at 350 and had to move the dizzy to get it right. The 345 that diy recommends gets you in the ballpark to set it properly. I love this wheel and I havent even used it for what it was designed for yet!

[Sam280Z]

I'm running 229.3 deg.

350 was ~120 deg off. Only matters for coil on plug ignition and sequential injection.

See my thread here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=45296&p=323787#p323787

 

Sam

[letitsnow]

I'm somewhere around 345ish, running wasted spark with LS2 coils.

[SleeperZ]

Not to change the subject, but is everyone using the schematic for wiring the distributor as outlined on the DIYAutotune site, with the white wire (harness green/black) pulled up with 1k ohms to 12V? And are you running the signal into the MS using the Hall/Opto input, not the VR?

 

I am still having an issue with number 5 dropped spark using the Z31 wheel, and I may be looking to get the DIY wheel if I can't get the Z31 to work...the only thing I have found wrong is I wired my MS for the VR input, and the good people on MSExtra are telling me I need to connect it with the Hall/Opto input instead.

[Sam280Z]

I am using the 3.57 board configured like this: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#vrv357pull (V3.57 board - VR Input with pullup for hall sensors, optical sensors or points)

I was using the stock 280ZXT wheel before i switched to the DIY wheel and it worked fine.

 

Do you have yours set up up like this? http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#vrv3pull (V3.0 board - VR Input with pullup for hall sensors, optical sensors or points)

That should be the equivalent to how mine is wired. If you do this, I think you do not need the pullup shown in the DIY diagram as it is on the board.

 

look at the instructions on the DIY trigger page as well (except for wiring the MS3X cam input and software settings). http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/using_diyautotune_nissan_trigger_discs.htm

 

Sam

[macambra]

Mine was running at 355 also but I removed the dizzy for some engine work and when i reset the timing I set it at 350 and had to move the dizzy to get it right. The 345 that diy recommends gets you in the ballpark to set it properly. I love this wheel and I havent even used it for what it was designed for yet!

 

I'm not either. I built my system while trying to think ahead to what I'd like to accomplish later.

[kaito]

Not to change the subject, but is everyone using the schematic for wiring the distributor as outlined on the DIYAutotune site, with the white wire (harness green/black) pulled up with 1k ohms to 12V? And are you running the signal into the MS using the Hall/Opto input, not the VR?

 

I am still having an issue with number 5 dropped spark using the Z31 wheel, and I may be looking to get the DIY wheel if I can't get the Z31 to work...the only thing I have found wrong is I wired my MS for the VR input, and the good people on MSExtra are telling me I need to connect it with the Hall/Opto input instead.

 

Not to be mean or bash on you any but why would you use vr input if the dizzy is optical? So to answer your question, yes jumper the board for optical/hall and use the pullup resistor. I used the power wire for the dizzy to pullup the signaal. In other words connect one end of the resistor to the white wire and the other to the wire you are using to power the dizzy. Good luck and I hope you get it working!

[SleeperZ]

Not to be mean or bash on you any but why would you use vr input if the dizzy is optical? So to answer your question, yes jumper the board for optical/hall and use the pullup resistor. I used the power wire for the dizzy to pullup the signaal. In other words connect one end of the resistor to the white wire and the other to the wire you are using to power the dizzy. Good luck and I hope you get it working!

Well, my answer is I overthought the circuits. MS calls the it the "hall/opto" input because it is optically isolated. I looked at both schematics when I was building the kit (MS3, v3.0), simulated the VR input and found it simulated perfectly. So I used it. I cannot explain why it does not pick up the edge of the dizzy wheel very well, it should. From my experience, optocouplers are somewhat slow, so I thought why use the optical wheel back into another optical device.

 

I am re-jumpering the board tonight, so I will post the results in my build thread.

 

Edit: BTW, the instructions for building the V3.0 look like this:

 

V3.0 board - VR Input with pullup for hall sensors, optical sensors or points

 

There is no option given to hook up the opto input, and everyone on MSExtra forums swears its the way to do it, even though no one can say why. I've simulated both now, and they both should work.

Edited June 5, 2012 by SleeperZ

[letitsnow]

I'm also using the hall/optical input circuit.

[SleeperZ]

I'm also using the hall/optical input circuit.

Did you build your PCB? Given the build instructions, I don't know how anyone would know to jumper that as the tach input. Every sensor listed is recommended to use the VR input.

[SleeperZ]

I'm also using the hall/optical input circuit.

That's good to know. I'm getting remarkably little feedback or intelligent discussion on the MSExtra forums. Opto is working for me too, but I still need to ensure I can set my distributor and ignition advance correctly before I get the car back on the road.

 

Sorry if I jacked the thread.

Edited June 5, 2012 by SleeperZ

[letitsnow]

Did you build your PCB? Given the build instructions, I don't know how anyone would know to jumper that as the tach input. Every sensor listed is recommended to use the VR input.

 

I built mine, I picked the hall circuit based on the square wave nature of the optical dizzy. I'm not sure if that section of the manual has been edited recently, I built mine 2 or 3 years ago.

[SleeperZ]

I'm running 229.3 deg.

350 was ~120 deg off. Only matters for coil on plug ignition and sequential injection.

See my thread here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=45296&p=323787#p323787

 

Sam

 

I am quoting a post from your thread, and some questions afterwards. Are you still using the rising edge edge trigger?

 

Got the DIY trigger wheel. Install Instructions

Took just a few minutes to get it installed. Took a little while longer to get it started since I didn't put the center dist wire back.

It is critical to turn off and back on MS3 between changing trigger settings. When it did start, it was advanced 50 deg. After a couple of tries I settled in on a tooth angle of 355.4 - not too far from the initial setting of 345.

 

Idle timing is rock solid now. It used to bounce a lot. Setting the trigger angle was much easier and could be done at low engine speed.

Engine smoothed out noticeably at low speed, especially under load.

 

You can compare before and after graphs here:

Old:

New:

You are using the 280ZXT distributor, correct?

 

The 355 tooth angle is the number you enter in the TunerStudio trigger wizard? I ask as I just got this wheel, and I haven't figured out the trigger reference yet. I still cannot get my engine to idle although the trigger and tooth logs look really good. I drove the car around the block, and I know the ignition advance is not set correctly as it has no acceleration, and I can't build any boost.

 

That's what I get for changing too many things at once, but I know my distributor is generally in the right position as I have not changed that since I was running the Z31 wheel and ECM. I had my trigger reference set to 60 and was getting number one spark timed to the mark, but that 60 number sounds like it's wrong -- I am thinking I have my ignition trigger nearly 180 out...

 

Single coil, L28ET, MS3 (TunerStudio), 12-1 DIY wheel

[Sam280Z]

Yes. 280ZXT distributor.

I didn't use the trigger wizard. I changed the Tooth #1 Angle in the Combined Ignition Options dialog box until the actual and indicated timing matched. (I ended up with the 229deg value) It really helps to have an advance timing light.

 

Make sure the Trigger Angle is set to zero. Make sure to cycle the MS every time you change settings. Use Fixed Timing as the option under Fixed Advance in the Combined Ignition Options dialog box to stabilize the timing so it won't be jumping around following your advance table. I set it around 15-20 deg to get a strong idle while setting the offset angle, then switch back to table. (If you are using a regular timing light, you will have to trust the advance marks on the timing indicator on the front cover. It also would not hurt to verify the crank pulley timing mark. The outer ring has been known to rotate - upsetting the indicated timing.

 

If you are using the distributor to distribute the spark, your timing can be off in 120deg increments because the coil doesn't know which cyl it is firing and the cylinders fire every 120 crank degrees. (as long as the rotor is timed appropriately -set the #1 cyl to TDC and make sure it is pointing at the #1 post on the dist cap). Coil on plug is a different story. You should not have to rotate the distributor to set the timing - especially since it ran befiore.

 

Be sure to follow the trigger wheel instructions form the DIY site.

 

HTH,

Sam

Edited June 19, 2012 by Sam280Z

[SleeperZ]

Thanks Sam, that definitely helps. All I have is a regular dumb timing light. But I have already verified TDC, and I have a brand new Powerforce damper -- what sucks about it is the timing indicator is difficult to see being more than an inch away and at a bad angle on the cover.

 

I tried to follow the instructions for MS3 ECU but they are only for full sequential and I had a hard time sorting out how applicable they are for my setup.

 

Are you still triggering on the rising edge? Is that why your tooth angle is so far from the DIY recommended 345 degrees?

[Sam280Z]

Paint the timing marks white. Bend the indicator or attach a piece of wire with the end painted white so you can get close to the damper mark. It is a pain, but really necessary if you want to be sure of your timing. Stick a straw down the sparkplug hole to see when the #1 cyl is at TDC and both cam lobes pointing up - then align the marks by bending the indicator. (I used a degree wheel and a positive piston stop, but that was before the engine was in the car.) Time spent on prep will save countless hours chasing the unknown.

 

I highly recommend getting an advance timing light. It will save you a lot of trouble.

 

Are these the instructions you are following? http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/using_diyautotune_nissan_trigger_discs.htm

You should use these settings. They work for batch as well as sequential. I've run both with the DIY wheel. Did you wire the cam input? If not, I guess you could ignore the cam specific settings but I have no direct experience.

 

I'm triggering on the rising edge as per the instructions. I don't know why my angle is 120 deg out. I have verified that the orientation of the wheel is correct and the oil pump gear is installed correctly. It did run fine with both the 280zx wheel and the DIY wheel with the angle specified in the instructions as long as I was using the distributor. It was just when I attempted to switch to COP that it messed up and I had to change the offset angle by 120 deg.

 

Sam

 

edited to fix link

Edited June 20, 2012 by Sam280Z

[SleeperZ]

That is the page I read. I have the MS3 with V3.0 PCB. My ignition capture is now rising edge (MS2 V3.0 wants falling edge), and I set it to 345. I did not set it to dual wheel because I do not have the cam signal wired, just the 12-1, and I am not running sequential or COP.

 

My distributor was barely on cylinder 1 at TDC, so I advanced the distributor to the stop, and the rotor is centered on number 1 tower. The distributor slot is exactly where the service manual describes, at 11 o'clock at TDC, but from what I can tell that may not give me all the ignition advance I will need.

 

At any rate, I tried to time MS3 to this configuration, with 0 degrees trigger offset, but TunerStudio trigger wizard keeps telling me to set the TDC mark on the pulley to 10 degrees on the pointer. With my baseline, and 345 degrees reference, I get the TDC mark timing at 20 degrees or so BTDC on the pointer. I think I confused myself, and added 20 degrees to the 345, and then my light would not fire, so I presume the rotor is too far away from the tower.

 

So my question is, I should subtract my timing pointer offset from the 345 to get the timing mark aligned to TDC?

[Sam280Z]

You don't want the rotor centered at TDC. The rotor has a wide contact because there is no advance mechanism in the distributor. The contact has to be aligned at all desired advance angles because the ecu will determine when the spark occurs. Old distributors with mechanical and/or vacuum advance should be centered. They tend to have smaller diameter caps and narrow rotor contacts.

 

You should have the trailing edge of the rotor aligned with the cap at TDC. This will allow the earlier (advanced) spark to occur when the rotor is aligned somewhere along its contact face.

 

From your description, I'm not sure what you are changing. The trigger angle should be set to zero. Do not use it at all.

Set the Trigger Wheel Arrangement to "Single Wheel with Missing Tooth".

You should be changing the Tooth #1 Angle, not the trigger offset (which should be set to zero). Add or subtract the error you see on the timing marks from the Tooth #1 Angle to move the timing light indicated timing to match the software indicated timing (set with fixed advance to the value of one of the marks you have on the timing pointer). I can never remember which way moves it advanced or retarded so I just use trial and error. I do not use the trigger wizard and I'm not sure it is even applicable for setting the tooth #1 angle.

 

Remember to reset MS after every change.

 

Sam

[SleeperZ]

Thanks Sam, I have so little time to get this going, 30-60 minutes a night is getting me frustrated with lack of progress. I am getting clearer on how this has to happen, and it sounds like I have to drop the oil pump and get that rotor more room to advance, despite it being lined up with the factory guidelines.

Edited June 21, 2012 by SleeperZ