thehelix112 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Hey guys, So I have my VK56DE, and am making forward (if slow) progress on getting it mounted in the car. I also have a transmission adaptor for the G35 6-speed I got. The next big pieces I am missing are the clutch and flywheel. I am unsure how to approach this. I have selected the clutch I want to use: http://www.quartermasterusa.com/qm/without-button-flywheel-3-disc-1-1-8-x-10-5-5-quot-pro-series-clutch-unit.html but I am at a total loss for how to go about specing up the flywheel to mate everything together. The adaptor is 16mm (5/8") thick, so I have am very open to suggestions about how to proceed: I've been in touch with QM about the manufacturing a custom flywheel to suit, which seems to be a reasonable option, however: Do I buy the clutch and try to mock up a flywheel out of scrap steel/plastic/wood that will suit then send it to them as a template? Or do I try and give QM as much information about the dimensions and hope they come up with the right thing? Should I just take it to someone local (LA area) who can do the job, if so, any recommendations? Many thanks guys, Dave Edited June 4, 2012 by thehelix112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluDestiny Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Ask jared since he did the swap on a s130. Maybe he either has the specs or knows where to buy one. http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/103602-my-560zx-titan-vk56de-powered-280zx-s130-build-thread/ edit: I think you've already been in contact with him. Edited June 4, 2012 by BluDestiny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 Yeah I have been in touch with Jared, but I don't think he is running the same clutch that I am. The question was more a general one, I'm not looking for a specific answer to my very specific application, I'm curious about how people go about specing a clutch for this sort of application. At the moment I'm leaning towards cading something up and getting it prototyped in plastic (pretty cheap around here), that should allow me to iterate on the design a few times before I send it to QM to see what they think. Thoughts? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexicoker Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) If you get in touch with a place like Taylor Race Engineering (disclaimer: I used to be employed there doing just that) They will ask you for the necessary measurements and can design/manufacture something for you. Important things are lining up the ring gear with the starter, and designing a clutch release system with the proper overall height. Someone like Aasco could probably do the same thing. With the correct measurements up front you should not need to create a prototype. http://www.taylor-race.com/ Edited June 8, 2012 by Flexicoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Second that recommendation for Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Awesome, thanks guys! My concern is getting the measurements wrong. I was hoping to use the stock auto ring-gear, as it looks very very light already. Yes the concerns I had were the overall height of the system, and as I am running an adaptor, getting the clutch in the right position to by fully engaged on the input shaft. I was (naively?) thinking that I could work the clutch system later by changing the slave clyinder. I.e. offsetting it forwards/backwards to account for different heights, and changing it's ID to account for more/less total travel required. Thanks again, I'll post back here after I talk to taylor. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Hey guys, So I have my VK56DE, and am making forward (if slow) progress on getting it mounted in the car. I also have a transmission adaptor for the G35 6-speed I got. The next big pieces I am missing are the clutch and flywheel. I am unsure how to approach this. I have selected the clutch I want to use: http://www.quartermasterusa.com/qm/without-button-flywheel-3-disc-1-1-8-x-10-5-5-quot-pro-series-clutch-unit.html but I am at a total loss for how to go about specing up the flywheel to mate everything together. Is there a reason you're not using a button and the VK56 flexplate? OR is it a problem with the G35 6-speed tranny not aligning the starter to the flexplate? I had a custom flywheel built years ago for a 510 conversion. For it I sent them the flex plate from the engine to establash crank pattern and general spacing and then a flywheel that fit the other tranny to get the starter gear spacing correct. So with those two and working back from the block mating face you could come up with your dimensions. You'll need to know if the VK56 is flat on the back or has any offset to figure that in. If this is a track only car the 5.5 will probably be okay but if you autox you may find that you have to service the clutch every year or sooner. A 7.25 has a lot more heat capacity and is going to be a little easier to get started. Just my two cents. I went with the 7.25 on my LS swap. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hey Cary, I was hoping to use the VK56 flex plate, and simply get a 5.5" OD 'flywheel' that basically bolts onto the crank over the top of the flex plate. Does that sound doable? By 'button' do you mean a largish single plate ceramic clutch? The only reason I have for going smaller/multiplate is the additional responsiveness in the engine. The starter on a VK56 sits between the banks, so there is no issue with starter/flex plate. The issue I have is how thick to make the flywheel, so it will engage properly with the G35 transmission + 5/8" adaptor, and hopefully still leave room enough for the stock actuator arm to disengage the clutch without interfering with the clutch housing. I am worried this piece needs to be precise in terms of the thickness of the flywheel. I am unsure if my best bet is to just buy the clutch then see where I stand. I am sure if there is interference I could work around it. On the clutch choice, for the price, and the number of miles this car sees (sweet fark all) I am willing to live with a 5.5". I have never been to an autox to be honest, I am much more interested at the moment in track days/HPDE. I understand what you're saying about heat capacity, but I am hopeful the car will be used most of the time in locations where it's acceptable to slip the tyres, not the clutch. Thanks again for the advice. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I was hoping to use the VK56 flex plate, and simply get a 5.5" OD 'flywheel' that basically bolts onto the crank over the top of the flex plate. Does that sound doable? Hi Dave, A button is what they call a friction surface with no ring gear. You use a the stock flex plate and then sandwich on this friction surface (using normal flywheel length bolts), which is exactly what you're looking to do. Only change is longer bolts will be needed for the crank hub. Take a look part way down the page on this forum to see a CADed up view of how this works http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/333627-GURU-s-official-LS-B5-Quattro-Swap-for-under-5k/page11 The flex plate is usually about 0.125 and the button is around 0.25 or so. This gets you to the normal flywheel thickness. The cool thing in all this is the buttons are usually around $125 new from the speed shops but even a custom one shouldn't be too bad. For a button all they really need to do is take a standard one and put eh VK56 crank pattern on it. They may even sell blanks that you could do this your self. Or I'm guessing that Taylor would do this for you. On the clutch I'm not sure if you found a good deal on this one and that's driving the purchase. You'd be better off with the newer v-drive style as they run cooler. On a friends Z the older style like this in 5.5 needed a rebuild before the year was out. The newer v-drive (optiumum V) has shown less wear. I only gently nudge in the 7.25 range as they are all over e-bay for around $200-$250 for units in good shape. That's what I did for the LS one I have. BTW, as you probably know there's no loading your car on the trailer without a wing with one of these. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 The issue I have is how thick to make the flywheel, so it will engage properly with the G35 transmission + 5/8" adaptor, and hopefully still leave room enough for the stock actuator arm to disengage the clutch without interfering with the clutch housing. I am worried this piece needs to be precise in terms of the thickness of the flywheel. Sorry I missed this part. For the small clutches you will probably need to remove the arm and go to an annular style bearing. These either replace the end on the transmission where the sleeve for the throwout bearing would normally sit or they can be mounted to the bellhouing. These clutches need a smaller bearing and a precise amount of engagement for release. You also need to be very careful you have the prescribed amount of free play or you can run into crank thrust issues down the road. Take a look at what's offered for the LS engines and the T56 conversion. This will give you an idea of what you need to do for the VK56 and G35 gearbox. Hope this helps, Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 Cary, Thanks! So basically you would recommend going with a hydraulic release bearing, like http://www.quartermasterusa.com/qm/components/bearings.html I'm sorry I'm unsure what you mean by 'annular style bearing'. It makes sense that this allows you to get much better precise control over the engagement. I'm afraid I'm unsure what you mean by free play. Are you talking about the amount the thrust bearing will back-off from the clutch forks? I don't understand the term crank thrust issues either I'm sorry. Maybe because it's sunday, I'll re-read what you wrote again tomorrow, but I'm unsure if it'll click in. I think I'll be getting in touch with someone like taylor race and explaining the situation to them and seeing what they have to say. Thanks again guys! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 So basically you would recommend going with a hydraulic release bearing, like http://www.quartermasterusa.com/qm/components/bearings.html I'm sorry I'm unsure what you mean by 'annular style bearing'. It makes sense that this allows you to get much better precise control over the engagement. Sorry, I should have called it a hydraulic release bearing. These are stiffer and easier to drive. The engagement point will be something you'll want to work on. The small clutch will bite very quickly so any flex makes this harder to manage. I'm afraid I'm unsure what you mean by free play. Are you talking about the amount the thrust bearing will back-off from the clutch forks? I don't understand the term crank thrust issues either I'm sorry. Maybe because it's sunday, I'll re-read what you wrote again tomorrow, but I'm unsure if it'll click in. Your definition of free play is correct. You need a specific distance from the bearing to the clutch cover. You also need to have a precise pedal stop so you don't over push the cover. That can also damage them. The crank thrust is the bearing area that takes the pressure when you push down the clutch pedal. If the bearing doesn't have the specific free play and is tight these surfaces can be under pressure most of the time. And over time the bearing wears down and then the machined area on the crank. And then things get expensive. As long as you follow the directions you should be good but make sure the free play is correct and the travel doesn't over extend (pedal stop recommended). Then it's just a matter of getting used to how easy these grab when you let out the pedal. Luckily with the V8 you have extra torque so it won't be as easy to kill the engine. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Cary, Thanks again. Ensuring you don't over-extend the clutch makes a lot of sense. I guess I'll need to have a platform or something fabbed up for the release bearing arrangement to mount to. I think I understand the issues at play now, at least a bit more than I did, and hopefully enough to get in touch with someone and be able to ask the correct questions. Thanks again guys, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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