Guest Anonymous Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Hello everyone,I have a friend that wants to do one of these infamous V8 Conversions in his 1977 Datsun 280Z with a 5 Speed tranny.He's having a bit of trouble deciding which engine that he wants to use,a 302 or 350.I've been trying to help him out on this cost wise,but I don't know alot about the prices.He just basically wants the stock engine of either choice with a 282 cam.So,I have a few questions... 1)Which is more easy on the budget as far as hooking everything up right and not being a 'hack' job? 2)Are 350's cheaper to 'soup-up' than 302's cost wise? 3)How much should he plan to pay for this complete conversion besides the cost of either engine,done right,driveable,and not have a worry in the world about it? 4)Will he be able to use the stock fan or will he have to use an electrical fan? I would appreciate any help on this if anyone has any! Thanks And God Bless, Izzy Middleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 All said, the SBC is a much easier swap for the following reasons: 1. Conversion kit available off the shelf (see JagsThatRun.com) 2. Chevy hop up parts are more available and generally cheaper 3. How much budget to plan for is a loaded question. After buying the car and engine and gearbox, probably $2000.00 is minimum, but can go 'sky's the limit'. 4. You would be better off with an electric fan and aftermarket (or Camaro per JTR) radiator (most go with the Taurus 2 speed fan from the JunkYards). 5. Ford conversions have been done successfully, but you have to do your own mounts etc. Two suggestions: ~Get the swap manual from JTR ~Use the search function on this board for specific questions. By this point just about any question has been asked and answered a million times. Hope this helps. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I've always heard that the SBC's will work better simply for that fact.I've discussed that wil him and it's all in our hands now lol.My cousin,Steve,and I are going to be doing the conversion.He builds hot rods for a living and took place in building my killer Chevelle.I love Chevy's and Ford's also,just an SBC in a Z,that's all that I've heard done sucessfully.Any good tips on how to hook up all the gauges after it's all said and done?I haven't really had time to discuss this with Steve about the conversion.For all that I know,he's still thinking of plans on the base of how he's going to do this lol.Thanks for your help! Izzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 IMO - swap out the gauges for 2 5/8ths Automater mechanical. Tach will fit right in the stock hole as will the speedo. Trans selection will decide which speedo to get but I love my electronic one! Fuel level gauge might be an issue though so research that - it's been discussed here before. I went with a cell thatcontains a GM sender to avoid that mess. Better brakes will be a must! Certainly get the JTR book and read up here on the CobraTaurusMKVIII electric fans for cooling - they're cheap and STOMP aftermarket fans. I like the Howe aluminum radiator out of Jegs, it was cheap and cools great Overall the swap is an easy one IMO but easy to get carried away with! P.S. Be sure to read some of the threads concerning CV conversion and the R200 diff for the rear end. My car's Achillies heal is the rear and I'm needing to switch to CVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 What can I get an R200 rear end out of? Izzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Izzy, Welcome to Hybridz. You came to right place. I second everything Tim said. I would like to emphasize the part about getting the jtr book. It is the foundation of any V8Z swap. Go here right now and order it. It is worth many times the selling price. I don't think anyone, without a lot of engine swaping experiance, can do it with out this book. The jtr book steps you through the Chevy install, but is equally valuable if you plan to do the Ford. No kits for the Ford, but others here have successfully done it, i.e. Jumbo240Z & Blueovalz (Jon & Terry). I did the Chevy and love it. If I do another I'll do the Ford. Each motor has it's +'s & -'s. I like the 302 because it is lighter, much closer to the weight of the Nissan L6. And the distributor is where God intended, up front. No hood latch mod required. Keep reading and have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denny411 Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Why not use the ford 351 windsor rather than the 302? you get the same cubes as the 350 chevy AND have the distributor up front. WIN/WIN IMO I`m using the sbc, but only because that`s the engine I got the deal on. SBF and SBC can make relatively the same power per cubic inch. Also, 5 spd tranny`s are easier to find for the ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Thanks guys.I thought of using the 351,but backed out.This is what I like to call a 'Chevy Town' and there are just not that many Ford's around,much less parts.Everyone that has done one of the SBC conversions says it's the easiest,so that's what I figure that I'll go with.What kind of money do I need to plan on spending for parts besides the engine and tranny if I do it myself,like I'm planning on?I have a fully restored show car condition Chevelle which has a 454 block,but is bored to the Merlin 509.She's a flier.I love Chevy Cars and Ford's also,I've just always been a 302 lover.They are lighter than the 350,but then again,they're harder to get parts for to do the conversion.I'm not much of a person to make things that work myself.I just put the parts that other people make together lol.Yep,I'm on of those people lol!I am satisfied with my Z the way that she sits with the stadard L6 with a 5 Speed tranny,it's just that nothing lasts forever.These cars are getting hard to find parts for so I decided to do a conversion once I get all of my goods together.I ordered one of the jtr manuals and should be getting it this week I hope.I plan on working on my Z every Saturday for the rest of the winter since I'm in school.Then,next summer,I'll start working on it full time.I am going to get one of my Body Shop friends to do the paint job.My Uncle and I will do the prepping and priming.I plan on doing somewhat of an off-frams restoration if it is at all possible.Put a coat or that Rhino Lining on the frame rails,inside fender wells,floorboards...you know,anything to prevent rust to invite itself to my Z lol.I know that I'm probably not going to get a very clean conversion,but I don't want to spend over $3000.Any tips on making this conversion easier would be helpful! Izzy Middleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 My personal experience has shown that Ford 302 stuff is Super cheap. The market for 79-93 stuff is just saturated, so I'd not completely count that out. Yea, 351W isn't a bad choice either, but again, the 302 stuff is SOOO available, AND GOING FI is easy with the EEC4. My white Z will likely get a 302 transplant with a Tremec 3550 from my Buddy. However, the issue of mounts is still a concern for some folks. Me, personally, it doesn't bother since I will fab my own up. But if fabricating bothers you, Then the Chevy is the way to go. The Ford is lighter, and has an ideal distributor location. So it is a strong contender... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 i own a 1990 mustang lx 5.0 5 speed. the 302 is a great motor with many parts available, but unless you have a 302 lying around i would drop in a FI small block chevy. I am planning on doing this swap with an LS1, LT1 also good. the 302 is way too torquey for a light car. i had my mustang dynoed all stock except for a mild cam, the motorsport E-303, and at 2000rpm i put out 248ft-lbs or torque at the wheels, peak is 285 at 3400rpm. even in my 3300lb mustang this creates traction problems. at the drag strip with slicks i cant launch over 2400rpm and i break the tires loose at any time in 1st and on most surfaces in 2nd gear on street tires (lots of fun, but no good for racing). 302s are notorious for low end torque, i dont know of any practical way to build one where it doesnt make too much low end for a light car. if you do go the 302 route be prepared to figure out a good suspension because the insane torque is fun but gets old pretty fast. newer chevy small blocks have a torque peak of around 4000-4200rpm so im hoping i wont have traction problems like i do now in the mustang (launching off idle on street tires and breaking them loose when i touch the gas, hehehe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Yea, that is an issue on our 95 Mustang as well... I'm running RE730 275-40-17s on the back and I fry them in 1st and 2nd and chirp 3rd... and my car is mostly stock for now. I can get a complete 5.0 motor from oilpan to TB for about $500. So I'm probably gonna pick it up pretty quick. Since I've already got a chevy project I'm gonna build the ford project for our track car. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 4. You would be better off with an electric fan and aftermarket (or Camaro per JTR) radiator (most go with the Taurus 2 speed fan from the JunkYards). Have to disagree with this one. You will move more air and get more reliable cooling with a mechanical fan and shroud. This is the JTR position also. Not trying to flame anyone, just sharing info. Look back through the archives where people have complained about overheating. Without exception they were all running electric fans. I personally prefer the look of the mechanical fan, just looks more "factory" but I realize I am in the minority here. Also the Mustang fan reportedly draws 35 amps at high speed. One hell of a draw on a 90 amp alternator. Better hope the bass kicker doesn't come on when the fan is in high speed. Also an aluminum radiator is great because they are light. But many guys get excellent cooling (and save some $$) by re-coring the stock Z radiator to 3 rows. But don't get me wrong, most guys are probably running an aluminum radiator with an electric fan. The set up works, just make sure you get the right radiator and fan or you will have problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Jim Most of those issues revolve around teething pains... Once you get all the right parts in place, the right electric fan works great... You live in the same area I do, so you will appreciate this next statement... I drove my car in RUSH hour FRIDAY AFTERNOON beach traffic on I95 all summer two years ago with ONLY an electric fan. The key is the proper shrouding, the right fan, with the right adjustable electric relay! I also had a 180 degree thermostat and an edelbrock aluminum waterpump! I did buy the MSA fan shroug and an Allstar 17 inch electric fan that worked well together. The thing would kick on and you could feel the air moving from the rear bumper when it kicked on... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Once you get all the right parts in place, the right electric fan works great... I agree. I have had the conversation a few times in the past. As most guys will tell you, the electric fans work. My minivan has electric fans and in the summer I can't stand next to the van when the fan comes on... the heat blowing out is uncomfortable on the ankles!! BUT how many times have people on this site recomended that some one replace their black magic fan for the Taurus one? When I first got on this site I thought my only option was going to be an aluminum radiator and an electric fan. After asking a few questions I realized I can keep my recored, 3 row stock radiator and a mechanical fan. I think the JTR guy got this one right. In my opinion (and it is only my opinion) the only reason to go to an electric fan is if the installation doesn't allow a mechanical one. Do the math. 35 amps at 12 volts is only a half horsepower. You can get a lot more power (hence airflow) out of a mechanical fan than an electric one. But if the electric is all you need, then it is all you need. Just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of the options.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Jim, Yes I agree that mechanical fans work great, but.... They do rob HP and slow down revving. Also, if running an electric H2O pump, or LT1/LS1, the mechanical fan is not an option. Also, don't you agree that the engine bay looks a lot crisper/neater without the mechanical fan? Since I have not had my LT1 on the road with the Camaro (JTR recommended) radiator and fan, I cannot speak from experience as to cooling efficiency? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Electric fans have always just seemed wimpy to me. I personally just like the look of the mechanical, bulky as it is. But like I said I am in the minority on this one. I also like knowing you have the maximum cooling possible from the mechanical fan. The mechanical fans don't put any more load on the engine than the electric. That is a non-issue. Conservation of energy...the electric fan loads the alternator which in turn takes HP from the engine to run. Now an electric fan is more efficient when the engine is not warm since it can be turned completely off. But when hot they are both the same. And I know the LT1's don't lend themselves to mechanical fans (although the LT1's in the Caprices have a mechanical fan driven off an accessory pulley). In that case I would run an electric also. I am not trying to talk anyone into an mechanical. Just want to make sure everyone makes an informed decision. One other recommendation. Pete P had heating issues until he got all of the air out of his cooling system. I think he had to jack up the front of the car to “burp” the last of the air out of the radiator (the fill spout is below the highest point in the engine?). Pete also recommends checking the accuracy of the temp gage. It’s all in the archives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Mechanical fans DO rob power. I've watched dyno runs of Ford Lightnings done with and without an electric fan - they pickup power with the electric fan everytime. There's an electric load involved but it's NOT as bad as te mechanical fan even with the fluid clutch. The reason people tell others to dump the BlackMagic fan is because it's a POS! Get a REAL fan like the OEMs use and it's a non-issue. I drove my Z in the Summer heat too and it wasn't a problem - no overheating. I could stand at the BACK of my car and feel the heat from the fan. I also observed it suck a piece of paper off the garage floor and stick it to the radiator when it kicked on. Sick! As for the Ford vs Chevy - GM motors make big torque too! I personally would do the 351W myself if I were doing a Ford. When the motor in my Mustang needed a rebuild I did a 351W - it was a no-brainer. Parts interchange between the two in many cases and the physical size was also really close. Who needs local sources of parts? Mail order will get you any part you need for a Ford motor. Heck, this town is BIG on Fords and Chrysler products but I drive and modify my Toyota with ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 I guess I should add a qualifier: if both fans are moving the same amount of air, then the electric and mechanical fans place the same load on the engine. (The blade efficiency has a play here but let's assume they are the same.) You can't get away from this, the power has to come from somewhere. If the dyno run with the electric fan resulted in higher HP, then the electric fan is simply not moving as much air and thus doesn't have the cooling capacity of the mechanical. It is possible to have too much air, at which point you are needless robbing engine HP. This is obviously much easier to do with a mechanical but the same thing can happen with an electric. The big advantage to an electric is you can control it from a computer or thermostat and only use it when needed. But if you need the air flow to keep from overheating, then you are putting the same load on the engine either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 I just got to throw in my .02. Jim is right on the money. You can't get around conservation of energy. In fact I'll go even farther: The efficiency factor of the alternator (must be<100%) means that the electric fan robs MORE hp from the engine than a directly coupled mechanical fan. Again, this is considering all other factors are equal. Mikelly's statement needs highlighting here,"The key is the proper shrouding..." This is essential. You can move all the air you want, but if it doesn't go where you want it, it's wasted. I firmly believe this is the big problem with aftermarket electric fans. Not the fault of the motor or blade, but the lack of a good shroud. The Taurus fan works so well because it has an excellent shroud. If your shroud doesn't cover the entire core than your not using all your radiator. There, I've shot off my mouth enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Jim Powers. My project 350SBC 280Z JTR setback has the Flex a Lite mechanical fan for the Griffin Aluminum 24X19 radiator but the shroud may be impossible to fabricate to fully cover the radiator since Griffin saw fit to fashion a standard angled chev lower radiator outlet on a narrow radiator. The SBC offset position does not even help this shroud fitting problem. A Taurus fan and shroud is an easy solution that has a lot of member support and by the time I am thru with this mechanical marvel, I will have better spent my time and money on a Taurus (the flexalite fan was free) since no ready made shroud is apparently avaiable in the kingdom. I will have to make one.BTW Dan Juday's electric fan is better than a factory designed install/ya cannot beat thos clean looks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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