injector banks not firing and fidle not engaging relay

[softopz]

After winter went to start the car found a million problems not there before.

 

Basically my car is running on 3 cylinders the other fire but the plugs are clean and slightly wet. Even when I put screwdriver on injector for the first bank I can hear it click crisp the other bank 1 2 3 are not giving me a crisp click its like a wine. You guys know that there are 4 wires that make 2 banks for injectors pins 32, 33, 34 and 35 Mine are wired 32/33together to cylinders 1 2 3 and 34/35 to 456. I am not home right now So I dont remember what my MS2 setting I believe they are setup alternating. Do you guys have any advice how I can trouble shoot this or solutions ?

 

My other issue is the fan it use to engage the relay I am using the same settings as I used before nothing changed the wiring is the same as well. I check the relay with another its fine. How can I test the fidle port?

[Matt Cramer]

What tools do you have available to troubleshoot this one?

[softopz]

Plenty of tools and a multimeter, I dont have a scope,stimulator nor a node light.I KNOW the car is only running one bank properly those the spark plugs from one bank are so clean slightly wet. also the screwdriver I can hear them just swoosh and not click precisely open you know the crisp sound. should I just wired them all one one bank?

 

edit Matt my car is know sporting the DIYautotune.com sticker on quarter window I just ordered a harness and a set of plugs from youz guyz h

Edited August 24, 2012 by softopz

[softopz]

ok now im positive its bank #2 that is not firing at all, i completely disconnected the bank pins 34 and 35 and the car runs the same. I should of noted Iam using rb26dett yellow injectors 440cc attached to post are my injector characteristics and injection control settings. Could someone throw me a bone here

Edited August 27, 2012 by softopz

[Matt Cramer]

I'd first check the injector wires for 12 volt power to the injectors and continuity from the other side of the injectors to the MS. Then check out this article for troubleshooting the drivers:

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_injector_driver_troubleshooting.htm

[softopz]

Hey Matt,thanks for the reply I did both tests I have voltage to all injectors and grounds are all the way good to db37 connector. On a side note the other day I broke pin 21 on the ecu daughter board but i fixed that and checked resistance. I had checked that link and that could the very answer I'm looking for however I don't have a stimulator and quite honestly I can't understand that schematic I'm going to ask around for some help and buy a stimulator

 

EDIT i said pin 22 first its pin 21 of daughter card which happens to be part of injector driver circuit however its fixed and IM getting 0hm from the top of daughter card all the way to bottom of board.

Edited August 29, 2012 by softopz

[softopz]

update : This could be a sticky and walk through for someone not getting injectors to fire!

 

luckily I had just recently bought a ms2 assembled harness from you DIYautotune and I did not install it yet. I plugged it to the ecu and powered/grounded it to a battery. I figured I don't have a STIM but I can do some tests.

 

This article will walk you through how to troubleshoot them. It is written for the V3.0 and V3.57 boards. The V2.2 is similar but the component names are different; see here for the component names. It does not cover the MicroSquirt, MS3X, or MSPNP Gen 2, which use different injector driver circuits. You will need the following tools:

 

Stimulator or JimStim

Stimulator power supply or 9V battery

Volt meter

Some lengths of test wire

 

To begin with, remove the case lid and processor (or daughter card, in the case of MS2 or MS3) so we can concentrate on the main board, and power the ECU up on the Stim. The injector LEDs should be off. Use a bit of wire to touch the U1 socket pins 21 (in the upper left hand corner if you're looking at the board with the Bowling & Grippo text at the lower edge - the U1 socket is "upside down") and 22 (just below it) to ground. The injector LEDs should come on. If they do, the board is working correctly. If not, here's what to check to fix it. Time to get out the volt meter. for checking pins 2/4 in the off state I need help clarifying is this off for injectors(jumpered 21 and 22 on U or now power to ecu?

 

so i removed daughter card and jumper 21/22 with wire LED don't come on But I believe its speaking of the LED's on STIM Correct me if im wrong. Mine dont light up but I moved on anyway

 

I have trouble reading which ends I should see infinte continuity and which I should see resistance. for some of circuits.

 

 

 

First, check pins 2 and 4 on U4. If they're not getting 5 volts in the off state, turn the power off and ohm out R14 and R17, and make sure you have continuity to the CPU.

 

At pin 4 and 2 i put one lead of multimeter on pin 2 and the other on I am not getting power ON or OFF. I am not clear if I was doing this step right. R14 to pin 21 of U1 on the brown end of resistor I get 0hm, on the gold I get 10ohms. R17 to pin 22 of U1 on the gold end of resistor I get 0hm, on the brown I get 10ohms.

 

U4 is an inverting driver. If you don't see its output on pin 7 go high when pin 2 is grounded, or pin 5 go high when pin 4 is grounded, you've got a bad U4. Same if it's stuck high when it gets 5 volts on the input. Note that if you have a 9 volt battery, the points I've marked at "12V+" are going to be lower, more like 8 volts. You'll usually see somewhere around 12 volts on a power supply. If you're seeing more like 10 volts, don't panic; it's still working OK. Time to move on.

 

I don't have a Stimulator so I cant go high or low like its asking but this is what I managed to get.I see 12v off pin7 on U4 and when i put multimeter one lead to pin 5 and the other to pin 4 I get 6.25v

 

Check the input signal on pin 1 of Q1 and Q5. It will be a little lower than the voltage at U4, but not by much. If the voltage has disappeared, power it off and check the ohms on R15 or R20 as appropriate. Either R15 or R20 has failed, or the transistor in the current limiting circuit (Q14 or Q15) has shorted out and needs to be replaced.

 

First things first How do I know where is PIN1 on a transistor of the three PINS?! Iam getting 11.75v on both Q1 and and Q5 by putting positive lead to the left (if db37 connector is to the right of me) and negative lead to the right last pin. I then ohm r15 and r20 im getting 22ohm on both of them

 

If the signal is making it to Q1 or Q5, but the injector driver isn't working, first check for continuity from pin 2 of the FET to the DB37. If that checks out, and the injector driver is failing to turn on, replace Q1 (for injector 1) or Q5 (for injector 2). If the injector driver is stuck on, it could be same transistor, but it could also be the flyback circuit. To find out which one it is, desolder D5 (for injector 1) or D7 (for injector 2). If the output is still stuck on, it's the transistor. If the output goes off, it's the flyback circuit. The most likely culprit is Q3 for injector 1, or Q11 for injector 2.

 

ok pin 2 im guessing is the middle and I have continuity from Q1 and Q5 to db 37 wire .06ohms . Whats confusing is that im even getting same resistance if I have Q5 for bank1 and that transistor (q5) is for bank2? I tried this method with power to ecu and then I jumpered 21 and 22 of U1 and I got at the same Resistance. I didnt to second part of the the last step.

[Matt Cramer]

That is about the LEDs on the Stim - without a Stim, what were you doing to determine the state of the outputs?

[softopz]

I figured I proceed because I know inj2 doesn't work for a fact and only the beginning part of article related to stim. I'm going to swap transistors q5 and q1 if that doesn't work I'll do the diodes d5/d7 and q3/q11 from inj1 to inj2 circuits its crapshooting but I'm out of options. I'm kind of in a rush to get her going i already ordered all the parts from digi key

[OhBilly]

Did you ever make any progress on getting bank 2 to fire?

 

I am in the same situation... bank 2 not firing. Like you, I don't have a noid light nor a stim. I do work with some smart electrical engineers though, and we have scopes, power supplies and multimeters that I have access to in the lab. Matt Cramer, without a stim, how would we go about testing the injector driver circuits?

 

As a side note, why does it always seem that bank 2 has trouble?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[Matt Cramer]

Did you ever make any progress on getting bank 2 to fire?

 

I am in the same situation... bank 2 not firing. Like you, I don't have a noid light nor a stim. I do work with some smart electrical engineers though, and we have scopes, power supplies and multimeters that I have access to in the lab. Matt Cramer, without a stim, how would we go about testing the injector driver circuits?

 

As a side note, why does it always seem that bank 2 has trouble?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

 

On MS1, it is possible to accidentally set injector bank 2 off, particularly if you try composing a tune from scratch instead of starting with the default tune file.

 

This article may help - remember, the Stim LEDs are just test lights hooked to 5 volts (and 12 volts will work fine too).

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_injector_driver_troubleshooting.htm

[OhBilly]

On MS1, it is possible to accidentally set injector bank 2 off, particularly if you try composing a tune from scratch instead of starting with the default tune file.

 

This article may help - remember, the Stim LEDs are just test lights hooked to 5 volts (and 12 volts will work fine too).

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_injector_driver_troubleshooting.htm

 

Matt, thanks for the reply. How can injector bank 2 be shut off? Under "Advanced" and then "Fuel Table Selection" I see you can select Table 2 for INJ2, but I have mine set to Table 1. Is there another way it can be shut off?

 

Thanks again.

[Matt Cramer]

If you could post your MSQ, I can go through it for other settings that could cause this.

[OhBilly]

If you could post your MSQ, I can go through it for other settings that could cause this.

 

MSQ is attached. Thanks for the help Matt.

 

Bill

rustbucket_9-12-12.zip

[softopz]

I ended up buy all new parts from digi key first for the complete 1+2 inj bank circuits. Its still wrapped and havent touched it.

I decided to get a new ms2/stimulator unassembled to help familiarize myself with the cirucit board. This way I could also go back to my old one and fix it maybe even sell it.

I spend the past two days building both stim and ms2 everything went well. I started loaded the latest firmware s19 file and started a new tunerstudio tune file and just imported exported my tables from megatune and the other little details i just manually input them.

Not even 10 mins ago, I put the new box in she started within the first crank! I put a screwdriver to the injectors 123 and im not hearing anything I check 456 I can hear them going off. So Im still running on 3 cylinders!?!! this car is driving me nuts. I just plugged in the stim on with ecu/daughter board removed to trouble shoot driver on my new ms2 and when i jumper both 21 and 22 the lights dont come on (meaning something is wrong with my circuit!?) HOWEVER when i put the stim on with ecu and turn the rpm up and down both inj banks are firing. I dont know really what to do at this point looks like ill rewiring my whole efi harness (since I got a cleaner one from DIY thats asking to get wired) im going to also go back to first ecu and try to fix that one which I messed up trying to do the inj troubleshoot without stim now if i plug that in the car my main fuse blows right away! you got any ideas what that could be?

 

i'll keep you guys posted if anyone wants to chime in go ahead throw me some ideas

[Matt Cramer]

I ended up buy all new parts from digi key first for the complete 1+2 inj bank circuits. Its still wrapped and havent touched it.

I decided to get a new ms2/stimulator unassembled to help familiarize myself with the cirucit board. This way I could also go back to my old one and fix it maybe even sell it.

I spend the past two days building both stim and ms2 everything went well. I started loaded the latest firmware s19 file and started a new tunerstudio tune file and just imported exported my tables from megatune and the other little details i just manually input them.

Not even 10 mins ago, I put the new box in she started within the first crank! I put a screwdriver to the injectors 123 and im not hearing anything I check 456 I can hear them going off. So Im still running on 3 cylinders!?!! this car is driving me nuts. I just plugged in the stim on with ecu/daughter board removed to trouble shoot driver on my new ms2 and when i jumper both 21 and 22 the lights dont come on (meaning something is wrong with my circuit!?)

 

That is what they should be - no lights without the daughter card.

 

HOWEVER when i put the stim on with ecu and turn the rpm up and down both inj banks are firing.

 

Correct there too. Sounds like the ECU is good.

 

I dont know really what to do at this point looks like ill rewiring my whole efi harness (since I got a cleaner one from DIY thats asking to get wired) im going to also go back to first ecu and try to fix that one which I messed up trying to do the inj troubleshoot without stim now if i plug that in the car my main fuse blows right away! you got any ideas what that could be?

 

i'll keep you guys posted if anyone wants to chime in go ahead throw me some ideas

 

I'd check the wiring at this point.

[softopz]

Update I replaced both bank grounds still the same I ohmed out from the db37 to each injector plug I get 0 hms 32/33 and 34/35. I even shortened the split and wired them all equal length

let me clarify this so I dont over look this simple thing both 32/33 tie in together to ground as one and split to 3 injectors, and the same goes for 34/35 is that correct?

 

I got some progress on isolating the issue. when I put bank 1 to my other 3 cylinders they work! same as when I connect bank 2 to the others this isolate my ecu all together, and that my 2 bank grounds work fine. IT IS ONLY when I plug in all 6 I get no clicks from bank2 this is leading me to the way I wired my +12v source. Both banks are wired to 1 wire 12v+ and a 10 amp fuse not like the schematic shows each bank having their own +12v and a 5amp fuse. Its a little late know for me to annoy neighbors so I will try that tomorrow. So I guess my first ECU there was nothing wrong with it till I shorted something out!

Matt, would wiring all the injectors to 1 pos 12v cause this? I had it like this before and it worked fine before maybe they could of got heated. Can there be any other reason besides this? like setting in tunerstudio single table or dual? or PWM settings?( I built the MS2 with both flyback circuits as recommended) and my pwm is set at 30

 

I am using low impedance 440cc skyline gtr yellow injectors.

 

below is a msq Was wondering if someone can take a min to overlook all the setting thanks in advance

2012-09-30_20.34.50.zip

Edited October 1, 2012 by softopz

[softopz]

double post delete me

Edited October 1, 2012 by softopz

[Matt Cramer]

That wiring method should be fine - are there any injector resistors in the wiring that you haven't told me about?

[OhBilly]

Just an update to let you know I got both banks of injectors to fire.

 

The problem turned out to be a bad soldering job on my part on a few of the tiny transistors in the injector output circuit. The troublesome ones were Q13 and Q15. I discovered the problem by using a multimeter to Ohm them out. Sure enough, a few of the leads were shorted, and they were shorted on the top side of the board, directly underneath the transistors. The offending bits of solder were so small I had to use a good magnifying glass to see them, and since the were shorted under the transistors, I had to pull them up and off the board to do so.

 

If you haven't checked out those tiny transistors yet, I'd give that a shot. I thought I was super careful soldering those things on, but they are just so tiny it's easy to bugger them up without knowing.

 

Thanks for letting me hijack your thread. Good luck to you.

 

Matt, thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

 

Bill