Need help selecting NEW CLUTCH

[RebekahsZ]

I rode along on the 1/8 with a guy this week in a 2005 (?) factory supercharged mustang cobra with mt ET drag slicks with a monster clutch-he said 3+. It was awesome , (even though my car is faster by 3 tenths). Car sounds like a seeing machine at high rpm. Left line at 4 grand, immediately bogged and recovered then chirped going into 2d & 3rd. He said he broke clutch in for 500 miles and it was really rough and digital until the 450th mile and he said then it suddenly started acting like a stock clutch. He loves it. As a passenger i thought he had a stock clutch Also watched the new mustang with the new 5.0 motor. That's a great motor stock out of the box. Way faster than the old school 5.0.

[RebekahsZ]

Sewing machine

[alainburon]

Maybe if you don't know how to drive it....

 

To each his own, but I LOVE my puck monster. No chatter, no noise, breaks S HIT on the reg type holding power.

 

I disagree sir, knowing how to drive has nothing to do with it.

I have owned plenty of fast cars and and had all kinds of clutch set ups, monster clutch is only good for the drastrip. If you drive it like a normal car on the street it will chatter, it's just a matter of time. There are plenty of clutches out there that perform better than monster and work great on the street. The reason monster has become so popular is that they are less than half price of most good clutches and perform excellent on the strip. It all depends what you are after. I'm not after building a race car, if I was a 280Z would not be the platfom I would choose.

[RebekahsZ]

Ok boys. No fighting on my thread. I appreciate everybody's opinion but no arguments here please.

[SUNNY Z]

I disagree sir, knowing how to drive has nothing to do with it.

I have owned plenty of fast cars and and had all kinds of clutch set ups, monster clutch is only good for the drastrip. If you drive it like a normal car on the street it will chatter, it's just a matter of time. There are plenty of clutches out there that perform better than monster and work great on the street. The reason monster has become so popular is that they are less than half price of most good clutches and perform excellent on the strip. It all depends what you are after. I'm not after building a race car, if I was a 280Z would not be the platfom I would choose.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I suppose, but if my clutch doesnt chatter at over 8K miles, I don't see it magically happening one day.

[240z72]

Hi Keith. For some reason i cant PM you. It says you cant recive messages? too many BS MESSAGES ? HAH...

[RebekahsZ]

New slave, new remote bleeder with speed bleeder and four foot line, new throwout bearing, new pilot bearing, new flywheel with ARP bolts, mantic er2 clutch disc and pressure plate all installed. Reinstall bellhousing, tranny tomorrow after church. Then route bleeder line somewhere that doesn't require me to get under car to bleed, then some mighty vac work. Hoping to start break-in on Monday's commute. Pressure plate was cherry but flywheel had a lot of little dings and scratches out of the box. I guess that is what the break on period is for.

[RebekahsZ]

Tranny up. What a job, solo with no lift! Did not enjoy that one bit. Gonna torque driveshaft and call it a night. Tomorrow will bleed hydraulics. I chose this clutch because the pressure plate is the same color as my car! (Just kidding-maybe?). Mantic ER2 from Eastcoastperformance.com.

Edited September 17, 2012 by RebekahsZ

[RebekahsZ]

Anybody with ceramic clutch pucks, please weigh in. This is my first experience with a clutch that has organic on the pressure plate side and cerometalic on the flywheel side. So, I'm driving around town gently, trying to break this new clutch in. Interestingly, I can HEAR the clutch when it is rubbing either the pressure plate or the flywheel. It hisses like a snake a bit in the transition from fully disengaged to fully engaged. Now I can tell FOR SURE that the clutch is not consistently disengaging. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, when the car is stopped, I'll floor the clutch and move the shifter toward 1st gear and "hissss!" and I can't get the shifter into position. Let the clutch out, and the hissing stops. Try it again, and no hiss until I start to let the clutch out; once clutch is totally out, the hissing stops. Gonna try bleeding it some more, even though the pedal feels great. Every part is new. Distributor who sold me the clutch kit swears that nobody has ever had to shim slave. Is this hissing sound characteristic of ceramic clutches?

[RebekahsZ]

Super bumbed out. I just can't seem to get the performance I need from my clutch hydraulics. I've replaced EVERYTHING in the system and I still don't have this right. Clutch is disengaging only when pedal is absolutely on the floor, and it is not disengagine enough to allow for hig power shifts. Sometimes at intersections, I have to pump the pedal several times to get it to work. Everything is new from the master cylinder to the flywheel. Re-bled the master cylinder (no bubbles). Used a mighty vac inside the master and at the end of the bleeder: no bubbles. I have bled the rest of the system for about 30 minutes continuously by putting the remote (speed bleeder) bleeder in the fluid reservoir so that the system re-fills itself. Pumped pedal smoothly for 30 minutes. Even switched fluid from yellow Motul to blue ATE Super Blue to ensure that I was pumping fluid well-no bubbles at any point in the process. The new throwout bearing is only moving about 1/2 inch inspite of having maximum adjustment of the pedal linkage. It would take 1" to fully extend the thowout bearing, so I'm nowhere near overextending it. At first, I'm thinking that the Datsun pedal doesn't allow for a long enough stroke of the 7/8" master cyl, but the push rod pin is 2" from the pedal pivot in the Datsun, whereas it is about 1-1/4" from the pivot on the 3/4" stock GTO master cylinder. Also, if I push the pedal quickly and firmly (it is firm at the top), I get good feel and the clutch disengages (barely), but if I slowly apply light, constant pressure to the pedal, I can get the pedal to slowly go down almost all the way without very much pressure at all, and the clutch won't disengage. This is a new Tilton master cyliner.

 

Anybody recognize any of my symptoms and have a fix? This clutch problem has sidelined me for about 2 months and I see no end in sight. I'm at the point of despair.

 

Maybe I should adjust the top pedal stop to keep some pre-load/pressure on the master cylinder to keep the piston from bottoming all the way out in the depressurized position? That is my next step...

[SUNNY Z]

Have you tried posting on LS1tech? There are 1000:1 t56 clutch system hydraulics experts there vs here.

[RebekahsZ]

I have been all over LS1tech.com and have tried every solution offered. In fact, I did everything they recommended before I installed the new clutch. I'm calling Tilton now regarding the bleed-down of the pedal with constant, light pressure. I searched there more than I did on this forum, but since then I've found several guys on our forum: ULLYSES, EvilC, cheesepocket and others who have fought this, but they haven't volunteered any solutions. Theres were old posts, so maybe they have moved on to more interesting topics. What kills me is that when I first did this swap, the clutch was super sweet, even with just a 3/4" master. If tilton has nothing to say, I may just swap back in my 1" to find out if more volume solves the problem. I've learned something from every mod I've made, so I just haven't found the right needle in the haystack.

[zdlite]

I have been all over LS1tech.com and have tried every solution offered. In fact, I did everything they recommended before I installed the new clutch. I'm calling Tilton now regarding the bleed-down of the pedal with constant, light pressure. I searched there more than I did on this forum, but since then I've found several guys on our forum: ULLYSES, EvilC, cheesepocket and others who have fought this, but they haven't volunteered any solutions. Theres were old posts, so maybe they have moved on to more interesting topics. What kills me is that when I first did this swap, the clutch was super sweet, even with just a 3/4" master. If tilton has nothing to say, I may just swap back in my 1" to find out if more volume solves the problem. I've learned something from every mod I've made, so I just haven't found the right needle in the haystack.

 

you know I hate to say this but when T56's get hard to power shift it is usually because they need to be rebuilt. The ones from the early F bodies in particular had issues with the 3-4 shift forks.

 

The clutch could be fully disengaged and it wouldn't surprise me if the clutch plate was still sliding against a moving disc.

 

If you put a clutch MC on with a larger stroke and bore and the problem still persists then the only thing left is rebuilding the tranny.

Edited September 24, 2012 by zdlite

[RebekahsZ]

That would make me very sad with only 18,000 miles on it.

[NewZed]

Maybe the clutch dust that worked it's way in before has ruined the seals on the Tilton MC. Your description of erratic behavior sounds like bad seals somewhere.

 

I re-read your thread and didn't see "new" or "rebuilt" master cylinder in there. It's the only old part left.

[RebekahsZ]

Sorry about the omission, and thanks for the advice, I'll take all I can get. New 7/8" Series 74 Tilton MC. Same MC as a Tick (see LS1tech.com). Had a brief, but good talk with Tilton rep: Dan. He had a simple suggestion: put a plug in the end of the master cylinder and see if the pedal acts the same way. Plug on order via Speedwaymotors.com. The black hydraulic fluid comes from the way the throwout bearing/slave is designed (it sucks clutch dust)-it is a universal LS-style T56 problem. My fluid started to blacken on my first test drive, but I've already flushed it once and will flush it before each trip to the track. I chased the black fluid poltergiest around for weeks before replaceing the clutch (which was warped). Seems black fluid and frequent flushings are just going to be part of my LS hotrodding experience, but it doesn't seem to hurt performance. Went ahead and ordered a 1" Series 74 Tilton from Summitracing.com along (couldn't find a 15/16" anywhere) with a puke bottle for my R200 which spits a little out of the vent tube. There was this Mustang at the track with a leaky diff that was really making work for the track crew everytime he lined up. They were nice, but I'd have been pissed. My replacement parts should be in this weekend and I'll find out if it helps. For all I know, I hurt some internal seal with my mighty vac.

[zdlite]

That would make me very sad with only 18,000 miles on it.

 

Yep. Probably run you $1500 to two grand to fix too.

 

Looks through some of the older posts both here and on ls1tech. Shift forks are a common problem on the early T56's (Google it or see here). In fact, the problem is so prevalent that most guys won't buy an early F body trans that hasn't been rebuilt and upgraded. Tremec redesigned the transmissions to make them more reliable. I'm not sure when they started doing that or when they made it into production, but it was after the GTO's first started coming out.

 

As you are finding out the hydraulic systems just aren't that complicated.

 

Not trying to be an ass, just want to help. Good luck whatever the solution is.

[SUNNY Z]

Simple test for synchros:

 

With the car running, in neutral, try to put the tranny into each gear without pushing the clutch. If it grinds, then the synchros need replaced. If it just refuses to go into gear, then (in my experience) they are good. In most cases, only the 3-4 shift fork will bend. You also need to remember that this trans came out of a car that was quite heavy, and if it was driven hard, its very possible it was damaged.

[RebekahsZ]

Looks like the problem was the master cylinder. Talked to Dan at Tilton who gave me a really simple trouble shooting plan. Put an AN3 plug in the master cylinder outlet and that isolates the problem to the master cylinder. Did it and problem continued-see videos. Swapped master cylinder and everything seems ok in the driveway. Unfortunately going from a 7/8" master to a 1" master makes for one very stiff clutch. Will adjust throw tomorrow, will have to be careful not to overextend slave. If this doesn't fix it, I have slave cylinder shims on the way. Had a really tough time getting all the air out of the new master in order to bleed the system by the traditional methods. Finally, used SUNNY's technique of mighty vac sucking on small hole in the master cylinder reservoir - that is what finally got the job done. I kept vacuum down below 5, just in case this is what ruined my old master. Then, very brief bleeding of lines by putting the remote speed bleeder into the reservoir. Tore old master down and I don't see anything wrong, which worries me a bit.

 

Just watched videos, note that they are not before and after. They are before swapping in the new master: one time I push the clutch and no disengagement, next time it disengages fine...it has been the unpredictability that has been killing me.

IMG_0733.MOV

IMG_0734.MOV

Edited September 28, 2012 by RebekahsZ

[EvilC]

So I finally read this post........

 

 

My clutch issue was MY error on install. I wasn't aware I needed to check if the slave cylinder needed to be shimmed. When I did the swap the second time I lost the shim I had and didn't install it which led to my clutch failing. Here are some things I would like to see you do -

 

 

1. Put the car in 1st gear with your foot all the way down on the clutch. Check to see if your car is creeping forward. This will tell you the clutch is or isn't fully disengaged.

 

2. Recheck the specs of the clutch - to me it sounds like the clutch slave is not pushing all the way down on the fingers of the pressure plate. Meaning the slave needs to be shimmed.

 

 

I am using a RAM HD clutch and love it. I drive the car very hard and the clutch failure was my fault. As far as dirty fluids, mine doesn't stay clean for very long. Report back and we take it from there.