Guest Anonymous Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 I think my engine is pretty serious, I can't get it to quit pinging at low rpm on pump gas But to put my engine in a 280zx that weighs what, 750lbs more than my car? It wouldn't be all that fast at all...... Turbo lag is BS. My 88 turbo has instant power at any engine speed above 2500 rpm. Absolutely instant. My 240 with a built 280 engine on the other hand, makes no power until above 4k rpm and it pings below 4k rpm and more than 1/2 throttle. It's worse than any turbo lag I've ever experienced. Turbo lag is not an issue with a properly sized turbo. JCR makes an L6 supercharger if that's what you really want(you will be disappointed with a supercharger I think), and any properly sized and belted centrifugal supercharger will be almost trivial to mount on an l6 engine. Trust me, a built non turbo is horrible for everyday driving and gets crappy gas mileage. A supercharger is, well, really crappy, expensive, and underperforming. An engine transplant or a turbo infusion will leave you happiest in the long run I think. With a good condition stock l28 turbo engine, you will be able to get 400+ horsepower fairly easily and still have 100% perfect drivability and decent fuel mileage. Can't get that with a supercharger or a monster built V8. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Morgan, I think you're out to lunch. First off, judging from the 3 or so cars here running superchargers, I have the feeling they'd say they are anything but "really crappy". "underperforming" doesn't sound like John Scotts car to me either. He's said he doesn't want a turbo. Fair enough. Euro280zx. Can you post what you want out of your car? Autocross? Drags? daily driver? Long distance cruiser? All of the above? You can have it all, but you will have to sacrifice a bit... (whether it be in engine operating range, or suspension stiffness, etc) ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 I meant relative to a turbo. There's a reason next to no new cars have superchargers.... Very expensive, complex, inefficient, unreliable, etc. compared to a turbo. how many new cars come with turbos? Hundreds! Everyone from ford to porsche to audi makes something with a turbo. The only supercharged cars I know of are what, that ford truck... That's all I can think of! ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Well I have to take issue with that Morgan... My car Idles at 1100 rpms, gets around 20mpg and produces about 540 flywheel HP in my 383 stroker that I had professionally built for $3800... I drove it last Friday in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic for 1 hour and 45 minutes with no issues at all. Car didn't overheat, and was totally docile in traffic and cranks out some serious Gs on acceleration, cornering and braking. I know of a bunch of supercharged vehicles that are killing the 1/4mile, just none of them are L6s and I don't think there is much being done in that area.. Bottom line here guys is that you have few options with the L series motor. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 im planning on setting the zx to be a cruzer type car.. i already have the suspention and interior compnents done and just now am doing the engine.. my ideal setup would be the most luxioruse, sporty, great sounding, and great fealing car.. so far i have all that but the sporty'nes that i desire. i would like to set the engine and drivetrain up to be a drag car.. im planning on only driving the car on a nice sunny, warm weekend but it will be driven. not a everyday driver but it needs to be a little more reliable then a pure 1/4 car. so.. i guess i want it all! im willing to sacrafice the power to get a better, longer lasting car. thanks everyone for replying. i hope we all can get my setup to be a very nice ride. thanks. http://eurozx.pmef.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Yo Morgan: I'm going to take a little jab at you too. My '76 Z celebrates it's 25th birthday in Nov-older (I'm chagrined to say) than a lot of you very hip well informed youngsters belonging to this forum. A yr after I bought it I installed a beefier cam and a turbo exhaust sys in it. It ran better but not like I was hoping. A yr after that, I had a small s3/s4 turbo installed and there was a noticeable inprovement in performance. Later, after 3 turbos, 8 cams and 2 ZX hds, I had a good setup-and yes there is such a thing as turbo lag. My last turbo on an '82 ZX turbo engine was a Super"H" or a mini-Grand National 57mm setup. It didn't start to spool up until about 3200rpm and wasn't fully operational until 4000rpm at 15-17lbs of boost! My bottom end sucked!! But top end ruled!! I wanted good power at all rpm levels and that's why I went V8. My 383 cranks out about 375HP NA(@ sea level)and had noticeably more power than my best turbo setup, cept above 140mph. With my Paxton, even tho they're not the most efficient SC, There was an even more noticeable increase in performance than any thing that I had done prior. The paxton added 90-100HP and gave instant response at any rpm range. My setup now runs about 465HP @ sea level and about 420HP @ 4600 ft elev here in Colo. The key is doing your research well and knowing what you are doing, or getting someone who knows what they're doing to assist you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 I would like to you to exhibit A, a fine exmaple what a well tuned turbo motor is compared to a stock 280Z . Now I don't see to many spots where it is more gutless than the N/A motor . Bob Hanvey from zhome an authority on the subject expects his motor to put out 190 at the wheels from 3.1L stroker . I would recommend reading Bob's article you think a stroker is the way to go . Turbo lag is almost a non issue in a well setup turbo car . Superchargers do have a little more initial throttle response, but as you start upping the boost effeciency drops off . The new centrifugal superchargers are much more effecient . Good luck !! [This message has been edited by clint78z (edited October 31, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 alright ya bastards.. im getting convinced turbo is the way to go and i wont have to much lag [boy i hope thats true, the 280zx automatic turbo my friend had was a dawg] because I HATE TURBO LAG!!! heh, turbo lag was the reason my stock 280zx na killed my friends 280zx turbo 2+2 automatic [but mabey its just my 5spd]. ive read several posts at zcar.com of people saying that swaping a turbo 280zx motor into a 280zx non-tubo required all the turbo wiring. is this true? is it realy a bolt in mod? i know the engine will fit but do i need all the wires? whole new wiring harness, or can i get a turbo engine harness? i got the funds, just didnt want to spend it on a new engine [id rather rebuild mine] but how much would i be looking at to complete the turbo project, including engine and enough upgrades to produce atleast 250HP? thanks guys, if i dont like anyones turbo ideas im just gonna rebuilt my 280zx na with a mild cam and some other minor crap and be happy. i dont need all the power, i want it but dont need it. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Morgan, I think the only thinkg you left out was the Turbo and spercharged V6 examples we have with Scottie and John Scott. Very nice power curves (a bit peakier than a V8 but probably not as peaky as a smaller Turbo L6) and very streetable. BTW, I wasn't slamming Steve Webb's efforts. I think it's a great example of the capabilities of the L6. I just wouldn't want to go through all that to get 300 HP, RW or not. My way would to be add cubes (231 GN) and turbo THAT or Supercharge another big V6, or, of course, go with lots more cubes (V8). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 The l28 turbo(And most nissan engines) wiring and electronics are very self-contained, ie. not integrated with the rest of the car. You'll want a turbo engine, wiring harness, and computer. A wrecked car or a junkyard is the place to get it. Expect no more than $1k absolute tops for a good condition engine/wiring harness/computer and all bits and pieces from a junkyard. Bolt the engine in(it bolts right in), stick the wiring harness through the firewall, plug it up to the turbo comptuer, wire up the ignition/grounds/power/fuel pump and whatnot, hook up the plumbing, and you're good to go. You might need a turbo fuel pump, I don't know if they're different than the non turbo pumps. Get/make a boost controller and you're at 250ish horsepower without even trying, and 250 is more than even the most unstreetable non turbo L6s make! You also have little to no turbo lag. A huge exhaust and a few other minor things and you can push 275ish with the stock electronics, but that's about the limit. A mild rebuild on your non turbo l6 will net you what, 200hp tops, and definately move the powerband up the rev range by quite a bit, which you say you want to avoid. If you want massive power(Like over 500 horsepower) then cost-wise an american v8 is the only way to go, but even then it's pretty pricey for that much power. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Euro, I think Morgan has your ticket there (Turbo L28). I've heard it's about as simple as he wrote there. 250ish hp is nothing to sneeze at in a 3200 lb? car. It'll move with decent authority. Pretty cool thread, seeing where it started. We kind of went all around the circle there guys, and ended up with a fairly inexpensive, farily easy way to get Euro what he wants. And I think we covered the options if someone wants more than 200hp as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Very cool thread guys. Ok, Euro if you are thinking turbo, then I can help you out a bit. My engine complete from a wreckers, with turbo, alternator, and basically everything attached (even heatshields) cost me $300 canadian, they pulled it and delivered it to my door. That translates to $200US. I however did not take any of the electronics! I am going with an aftermarket fuel system, which runs under $1000US. Why? Nearly infinate flexability, and it will always always! be able to accept modifications I want to make to my system. I tore down my engine, not a thing wrong with it. I'm reaplacing all the wear items anyway... another ~$200US. Total head rebuilt with cleanup P&P and 5 way valve job: ~$300US. For the engine alone, that is about all. I'm replacing a buch of other things at the same time, but your 280zx should handle the new found power a little better than my much lighter 240z. HP? here are my estimations and plans for my car: (well, no stage I for this car) o Stage I: Stock L28turbo engine - 180hp o Stage II: SDS EFI, no emissions stuff, 3" exhaust, no intercooler, 8-9psi boost, and mild head work: (P90 head) ~230hp o Stage III: Custom 2.5" downpipe, NPR intercooler, Larger injectors, still stock turbo, 14-15psi: I'm hoping for 300hp o Stage IV: Hybrid T3/T04 turbo - Probably anywhere up to 400hp, but I don't want to put too much strain on my bottom end. I'll likely run it around 350hp max. As for costs... I'm going to be doing nearly everything myself, and I'm always looking for a good deal. ClintZ managed his buildup for a VERY respecable sum, $3000US I think? (clint?) I'm not done yet, but I expect my setup will run me about ~$2500US for up to stage III. That includes a complete bottom end rebuild. Not exactly sure what a T3/T04 turbo runs... Do yourself a favor, find someone to give you a ride in a turbo car that is set up well. Where abouts are you located? ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Pete not to beat a dead horse here, my brother also own a 1990 talson TSI AWD and it does have what alot of people percieve as a ton of lag . I would like to take the negative and mystery from lag . Compare you dsm to the N/A version of 2.0L, if you were to test each side by side, theN/A vesrion is just gutless all the time . In most cases in driving the turbo car will have quicker response in all most every driving situation than it's N/A counterpart . Corky Bell says it best in his book no lag means no doubling your power . I really don't think alot of what Steve did was nessary to get 300hp at the wheels . Scottie was creeping to that point with his stock turbo car . Many of the old turbo cars are just plain worn out and badly out of tune . If you search under zcar.com archives you will see my name pop up many times . I would very much like to own one of the strokers or supercharged american iron . " My opinions are not biased, if only everyone else could see how right I am " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Amazing what a simple question will turn into. The amount of knowledge, experience, and some damn stubborn opinions this site can generate is nothing short of amazing. Euro280zx, I think you'll find whatever direction you take, you'll never be short on advice. We all look forward to following your build up. Please keep us updated. Also thanks to all for keeping the posts relatively clean and sane. Not always easy to do when your ideals are challenged. JS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Hey now, I dind't say a pushrod V8 was bad, just that it generally won't match a comparably powered turbo engine in terms of drivability or fuel usage when you spend the same amount of money on each. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 heres what i think i need to do so far: upgrade the injectors [bigger] modify or make a new fuel rail [my customizer can do this easily] use a "cold-air" intake [i built one, but found ones from other cars that will fit] diesel crank? is it worth it? ive heard alot of people started to use this, but with what else? sounds like a supercharger will do enough for me, not fully everything i want but running atleast 8-10psi max it should do fine? im realy against a turbo, dont want to add one and i realy dont want to buy a new engine. so, injectors, fuel rail, cold-air intake, crank, the p90? head, shaved head, anything else? i know im missing things.. i realy want to get a good idea of what parts [#'s] to order and what parts i need so i dont sound like a total idiot [like my post make me sound] when i goto my customizer who is doing my engine setup. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 http://www.zhome.com/rnt/3.1HanveyProject.htm Talk with Bob Hanvey he has invested alot of research into the storker motor . A set of turbo 280zx injectors should do then recalibrate your AFM after . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 I just want to point out that Steve went through quite alot of work to get those numbers (~300hp/~300 lbft). Not to say it's not impressive, but Steve is a very sharp guy and had access to alot of good help and equipment while doing this over a number of years. Definitely not a cut and dried bolt on affair, or easy for the average Joe. I don't think anybody said a turbo L6 would be more gutless than a NA L6. Just how easy is it to dial in the turbo setup to not have some lag? I'm talking about cruise lag, at 2200 rpm. Yeah, that's how I want power. That's streetable to me. IF you ever get a chance to drive a car that has real grunt from down low (2000rpm) and keeps giving it to 6000+, you'll know what I mean. If I have to shift to make decent acceleration, no thanks. I have a turbo car (92 GSX - just stock with a spring loaded wastegate controller, not optimized) so I know what turbo lag is. Sure, if conditions are right and I'm set up for it, I have no turbo lag. Otherwise, forget it, shift, wait, and I have thrust. Not very enjoyable to me on the street. Sure I could spend a ton of money on it and get it to do what I want, but I'm not interested in a highly tweeked setup that I have to babysit. And 190 hp for all the money of going to 3.1L is a fun adventure I guess, but not that way I'd want to get that RWHP. It'll still be a peaky motor, compared to anything with lots of cubes or boosted. Yeah, I'm biased and these are my opinions. The thing I don't understand is that if people want streetable power, why turn up their nose to a larger engine (V8 or a large V6 like a 231 Buick) and maybe add a blower or turbo. Trying to get lots of streetable power out of a 2.8 or 3.1 liter engine is just fighting a tougher battle. If you're in it for the engineering exercise, cool I can appreciate that, but don't think it's going to be all cake to do it. And all this BS about american engines suck, pushrods suck, etc. is pointless nonesense. Tell Tony Christian, or your favorite NASCAR team that. Those guys have more high tech stuff than most of us can ever hope have under the hood. I'll delete any post on these forums that has that in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 There seems to be 1 concensus here - that a non turbo stroked l28 engine won't get you what you want. It will be very peaky(ie. turbo lag without a turbo) and very expensive and low on power compared to what you could do with a turbo engine or a v8. You know when everyone here agrees on something that the concensus is pretty accurate You can't just pop in bigger injectors, the electronics will have to be modified to account for the larger injectors. ie. you need to throw a large wad of money at JWT to do it right. It can be made to work without expensive JWT stuff, but it will be far from optimal and kinda gimpy(bending spring in AFM, fiddling with fuel pressure, altering engine sensor signals, etc). Either a v8 or a turbo l28 will get you 400 readily streetable horsepower easily and for roughly the same amount of money. l28 turbo will bolt right in and is generally a tad lighter, v8 has a much wider choice of upgrades and in general more choices on everything. To get 400ish horsepower from a supercharged l28.... well, it'll be expensive and hard. You'll need an engine(A stock turbo engine or a nicely built non turbo engine), a supercharger($2-3k and up), and electronics for the fuel(another $1k bare minimum to do properly). You'll have comparable power to a v8 or a turbo, but will have spent more money and done a lot more work. My vote still goes for l28 turbo or an american v8. Webb's car is a very bad example like Pete points out, I remember first reading about his car over 5 years ago(Before I even started the 300ZX page!) Yikes that's a long time ago! ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 If you decide to go to the turbo route here is my page http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1553/ It has a budget page that you might find useful . Check out the links under zcar.com Scottie, Greg Kring have very good info . Also sds-efi.com is a good website for info and tuning . Drax layed out a nice package for you . 2 years ago there was no where near this kind of knowledge available on the internet . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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