Duratec 23 23NS - Swap Candidate?

[Gollum]

Background: So I've been going through a lot of "what if's" regarding keeping my S130. I hate that it's not smog test exempt here in CA, and I hate that I live somewhere that doesn't do the "test once during ownership" like out in the sticks of the state. I hate certain aspects of the S130, but I really do have a soft spot to them as more and more they are very much all that I wanted in the S30 when I got into z cars so many years ago.

 

It's relatively light (my slicktop is right about 2600lbs depending on gas in the tank, and 90% stock)

Fits any engine

Good platform for power (strong diff, axles, lots of room for tire, etc)

Cheap cheap cheap!!! I loved the S30 because 2k used to be a lot of money for a decent car. Now 2k is cheap for a runner..

 

 

So I'm finding ways to validate the idea of keeping the S130. It's the only slicktop S130 I've owned, and I've owned 4 S130's. I've converted it to R&P Power steering (was recirculating ball), and it's overall very low rust, with just some minor problem spots that are typical.

 

So my dream goals in trying to figure out what to put in goes something along these lines:

 

The car needs to reach 30+mpg, and fairly easily and an extra is big bonus points.

Needs to make at least stock power, but 200 to the wheels is more than enough. I've got my S30 for raw speed kicks.

Needs to be at least somewhat legal. I've considered trying to get a CA20DE BAR labeled and swapping in turbo bits... That's about as illegal as I'll get though, and I know the laws better than many, if not most on here when it comes to CA smog.

Needs to be affordable. Sub $2k for total swap would be ideal. Fabrication stuff is nearly free for me as I'm getting into that line of work part time. So take average engine/trans cost and double it and I'm sure I can do it for less than that.

 

 

Some engines that have crossed the dream table:

 

99+ Mustang 3.8. Gets 28mpg highway in the stang, shares the V8 bellhousing pattern (huge +!), overall a real gem. Too bad it's V6, but I can get over that. This motor meets MANY of my requirements in spades. Love that it's tuneable by any mustang ECU tuner too!

 

Ford 2.3 Lima. Great workhorse. Not sure it'd win me any MPG races, but just such a neat motor. But it'd have to be turbo in all honesty, and cheap turbo donors aren't exactly easy to find anymore. And I really DO need a full donor to do the swap legally.

 

BMW, pretty much ANY inline 6 from about 1992-2002. All great motors. Though, despite their EPA rating I can't find many people on fuelly.com that actually get or beat EPA ratings, which means 30mpg would be a struggle from the looks of it. And in the end it's not a "cheap" option really.

 

SR20DE(t) I'd totally rock the NA version legalized, and then see about swapping turbo stuff over, but such a PITA and I'm not a huge fan of the SR valvetrain, and if I owned a DOHC I4 I'd want to rev it constantly.

 

KA - Great engine, affordable... Not stellar MPG, but I'm sure that's fixable with a tune. It'd be begging for a turbo though, and I REALLY don't want to get into finding or even paying for a CARB legal kit, which are almost always insanely priced. So I'd be stuck NA which is just meh.

 

If smog weren't an issue I'd love to build a Z22E block, L20A crank, KA24E head frankenstein. There's the slimmest of all chances that you MIGHT be able to legalize a KA swap and then change the bottom end out with nobody the wizer, but really... that motor is BEGGING for either ITB's or carbs and that'll never fly during smog tests. Why do all that work to be stuck with the KA intake?

 

I'm sure I'm missing a few. A LOT of motors have gone through my scrutiny lately. QR25DE even was on my list, but meh. 

 

 

So, onto the Duratec for those who skipped all that...

 

...I can find ford rangers (post 2001 when the started the Duratec 23) for under $2k, in running shape, driveable, no need to tow. I'm sure if I hunted around tow yards and such I could find one in the $1k ball park that would suite me just fine.

 

But wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. First, the DURATEC name is just a brand label. It tells you NOTHING about the engine. It's like "i-force" or many of the other cheesy engine names put onto marketing brochures. The issue is that ford has a nasty habbit of not giving engines proper designations that people actually use or understand. The most common name for the engine we're talking about is the 23NS variant of the Duratec 23. 

 

These motors are virtually identical to the Mazda 4 cylinder, as they were engineered by mazda from what information I can find floating around. Seems there's lots of parts floating around for the mixing and matching. What I don't have much information on is what the bellhousing pattern is like, and what possible transmission options there are, as something tells me the transmission in the ranger might not be all that exciting....

 

It makes a measly 140ish range HP but does so at around mid 5k range on most models, which isn't bad for 2.3 liters if you think about it. The right little mods should go a long way to bring these motors to life. Exhaust, intake, cams, flywheel/clutch should all serve to really make things interesting up top, which the bottom end should do more than happily. Adding a turbo would be ideal, but it falls into the same boat for me as the KA and such, which means a turbo conversion would probably never happen.

 

The big selling point is that I'm finding people that average 28mpg a tank... in the ranger pickup! Low 30's should be more than doable, and from a huge lumpy 2.3 4 banger. I can't find many large displacement 4 cylinders reaching those numbers in stock form.

 

The fact I can get an entire donor car with a RWD trans for an affordable price is a huge plus, and that it should be a fairly "no frills" donor that shouldn't give up much of an electrical fight is a huge bonus too.

 

So does anyone have some experience with these motors? Am I crazy? Got better ideas for my goals?

[zgeezer]

No, you are not crazy and the S130 is a great (and under-appreciated vehicle).  Given that you have fabrication skills or access to them, I would start cruising wrecking lots with a tape measure and an open mind. If you live and drive in California, think about smog and think like a smog referee.  Generally speaking, all swaps using a truck engine are illegal.  Your iron block 5.3 may be running all Ls1 accessories, smog equipment, gas tank and passing a tail pipe test with colors, but, if that magnet sticks to the block you're probably out of luck and a lot of money.  So here's my take, for what it is worth.

 

Define your goals.  Is gas mileage really on the top of your list or is a cheap swap more important? 

 

Here's my take.  If smogability is not an issue, I'd hit the Sacramento/Carson City Nevada wrecking lots for GENIII 4.8 Vortech and six speed manual.  Easy swap, dirt cheap engine.... really dirt cheap, along with a set of 3:54 r&P  Keep the truck cam.  If one can believe the Corvette sites who claim 28mph @80 with an LS1, then your S130 should do at least that well.

 

If you have wiring expertise, this is a swap that can be done for $2K or so [with an automatic].

 

If smogability is an issue, then shop for new 60 degree V6s, such as  Ford's new 3.8 out of a Mustang with either AT or 6MT or V6 out of any of the rear wheel drive SUVs.  Take a close look at the v6 out of mid 2005+ Hyundai or Kia sedans.  These engines do not sell at a premium and there is usually one or two in any large lot.  If you find a late donor you could also be tied into an 8 speed automatic.  You would be in terra incognito as far as wiring these newer engine/transmission combination.

 

Finally, if the early Mazda/Ranger V6-4cylinders are really sticking in your mind, you should contact some Ford crazies who run Rangers off road for a better idea of what breaks and what doesn't.

 

g

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xnke]

RedZedTurbo's 280ZXT gets 30MPG and puts down 215HP right now...Megasquirted L28ET with a T31/T04E hybrid. The Maxima K-stamp camshaft if how he's getting the killer milage.

[Gollum]

No, you are not crazy and the S130 is a great (and under-appreciated vehicle).  Given that you have fabrication skills or access to them, I would start cruising wrecking lots with a tape measure and an open mind. If you live and drive in California, think about smog and think like a smog referee.  Generally speaking, all swaps using a truck engine are illegal.  Not entirely true. If it's a light duty pickup, under I believe it's 5500 gross vehicle weight, then it's in the same smog class and can be swapped into cars. It might be 5,000 lbs, but I know I'm right on the idea as it's been common talk between me and referees. Your iron block 5.3 may be running all Ls1 accessories, smog equipment, gas tank and passing a tail pipe test with colors, but, if that magnet sticks to the block you're probably out of luck and a lot of money.  I've never met a ref that would actually go into detail to verify what material the block was supposed to be from OEM. They simply don't go that far. I've watched ref's do BAR labels multiple times... So here's my take, for what it is worth.

 

Define your goals.  Is gas mileage really on the top of your list or is a cheap swap more important?  Balance of both is what I'm looking for. If I had to spend a little more but get 40mpg that would have my attention, but 30mpg from a nearly free donor would also get my attention.

 

Here's my take.  If smogability is not an issue, I'd hit the Sacramento/Carson City Nevada wrecking lots for GENIII 4.8 Vortech and six speed manual.  Easy swap, dirt cheap engine.... really dirt cheap, along with a set of 3:54 r&P  Keep the truck cam.  If one can believe the Corvette sites who claim 28mph @80 with an LS1, then your S130 should do at least that well.

 

If you have wiring expertise, this is a swap that can be done for $2K or so [with an automatic]. I've thought about this, and if I can get over the bowtie factor, it's a swap on the table.

 

If smogability is an issue, then shop for new 60 degree V6s, such as  Ford's new 3.8 out of a Mustang with either AT or 6MT or V6 out of any of the rear wheel drive SUVs.  Take a close look at the v6 out of mid 2005+ Hyundai or Kia sedans.  These engines do not sell at a premium and there is usually one or two in any large lot.  If you find a late donor you could also be tied into an 8 speed automatic.  You would be in terra incognito as far as wiring these newer engine/transmission combination. I haven't seen many of the newer OHC 60 degree V6's for super cheap, but I also haven't been looking to hard yet. I think it's because to me if I was going OHC I'd go with the dirt cheap VG or the pricer VQ. I'll look more into these motors though.

 

Finally, if the early Mazda/Ranger V6-4cylinders are really sticking in your mind, you should contact some Ford crazies who run Rangers off road for a better idea of what breaks and what doesn't. Yea I've been cruising ranger forums looking for info. Some are good, others are meh. Hard to find communities with the same "nature" as hybridz.

 

g

 

 

RedZedTurbo's 280ZXT gets 30MPG and puts down 215HP right now...Megasquirted L28ET with a T31/T04E hybrid. The Maxima K-stamp camshaft if how he's getting the killer milage.

 

I've known plenty of L28ET's getting 30mpg. Main issue with the L28ET is that 1. Needs EFI which can double a swap budget. 2. I can't find cheap L28ET donors lately. The market is STUPID!!!! It's unreal what datsun stuff is going for lately. I really don't understand why I can get a RB cheaper than a L, even if it IS a RB20 or 25....  But let's just draw it out real quick:

 

Say I find a cheap L28ET, lately that might be:

 

$300: Motor w/manifolds

$350: DIY MS2

$25: Trigger Wheel (or dizzy pickup wheel, either way)

$210: Wideband

$70: Wiring Harness

$200: Injectors

$50: Misc Sensors

 

We're already at $1250 and there's lots of odds and ends I haven't gotten into. I've got a L28ET '75 and plan to build another engine on the side. I understand what all goes into it.

 

In a perfect world I'll find an engine that I don't have to tune to be happy with, and that saves me the cost of a wideband and whatever form of tuning (nistune, tweecer, etc). The LS1 should hit high 20's without even trying hard, even without a tune. That's definitely a huge advantage for it.

 

Sorry for the lack of quote bubbles. Every night from 11pm to midnight I can't access hybridz and I missed posting before 11 by like 2 minutes so I had to copy/paste an hour later.

[socorob]

the duratec/mzr engine is very supported. In fact theres a formula atlantic racing class that uses those engines. I thought about putting one in my Sunbeam before I bought a 280. Also look up Goodwin racing NC light Miata. I think hes getting high 200whp NA out of a duratec 2.5. Mazda and ford use the same block. On the bottom of the engine casting is FoMoCo stamped on all of them. The Brits use them in locosts and Escorts. There is a lot more performance parts available there. Another good candidate may be the GM high value V6 if you dont mind an OHV engine. .They put them in MGs with an S10 bell they will bolt to a Ford T5. Some guys are getting over 30 mpg with mid 200 whp NA with that setup.

[Gollum]

Thanks for the info!

 

Regarding OHV V6, the ford 3.8 is certainly on my radar, and I just saw a 99+ V6 mustang in someone's driveway today that had some serious front end damage (hood was folded pretty good), considering going back and offering like $500 and seeing what they say.

 

Main reason I'd look at the ford V6 option over the GM is 1. I know the ford parts bin better, and 2. I like the transmission options better. The Ford V6 is an identical bellhousing pattern as the V8, and that's not the case with the GM motors (as far as I've seen/know). Price-wise, performance and such is pretty close between the two. Stock 99+ mustang motor should make almost 200 flyHP stock, and the stock mustang should get about 28mph highway. In a Z it should be able to reach 30 just fine, especially with a tune and some light mods. And being a Ford ECU all I need to do is find a friend with the right tuner and rent their gear for a day.

[Xnke]

I've known plenty of L28ET's getting 30mpg. Main issue with the L28ET is that 1. Needs EFI which can double a swap budget. 2. I can't find cheap L28ET donors lately. The market is STUPID!!!! It's unreal what datsun stuff is going for lately. I really don't understand why I can get a RB cheaper than a L, even if it IS a RB20 or 25....  But let's just draw it out real quick:

 

Say I find a cheap L28ET, lately that might be:

 

$300: Motor w/manifolds

$350: DIY MS2

$25: Trigger Wheel (or dizzy pickup wheel, either way)

$210: Wideband

$70: Wiring Harness

$200: Injectors

$50: Misc Sensors

 

We're already at $1250 and there's lots of odds and ends I haven't gotten into. I've got a L28ET '75 and plan to build another engine on the side. I understand what all goes into it.

 

In a perfect world I'll find an engine that I don't have to tune to be happy with, and that saves me the cost of a wideband and whatever form of tuning (nistune, tweecer, etc). The LS1 should hit high 20's without even trying hard, even without a tune. That's definitely a huge advantage for it.

 

Sorry for the lack of quote bubbles. Every night from 11pm to midnight I can't access hybridz and I missed posting before 11 by like 2 minutes so I had to copy/paste an hour later.

 

 

And here's the real cost breakdown:

$300: Motor w/manifolds

$400: DIY MS1-E assembled...about half that if you can solder yourself.

$0.00: STOCK optical dizzy

$180: Wideband-Less if you get a used one. I paid 80$ for my LC-1 used, and it has served me well.

$30: Wiring Harness-used pull-a-part wiring, not even sure if we spent 20$.

$58: Injectors-Be patient on ebay...or use the stockers. You aren't looking for much power over stock.

$31: Misc Sensors-both coolant temp and IAT, new, Autozone with lifetime warrenties.

 

You'll pay the same amount for a newer junkyard engine with the wiring harness, ecu, transmission, ect.

[randy 77zt]

Thought about the newer 3.5l ford v6 mustang engine?There is supposed to be an s30 some where in the sf bay area with 1 in it .Nice free reviing dohc engine with 300 hp.First year used was 2010.In a light car you need a free revving engine.

[Gollum]

And here's the real cost breakdown:

$300: Motor w/manifolds

$400: DIY MS1-E assembled...about half that if you can solder yourself.

$0.00: STOCK optical dizzy

$180: Wideband-Less if you get a used one. I paid 80$ for my LC-1 used, and it has served me well.

$30: Wiring Harness-used pull-a-part wiring, not even sure if we spent 20$.

$58: Injectors-Be patient on ebay...or use the stockers. You aren't looking for much power over stock.

$31: Misc Sensors-both coolant temp and IAT, new, Autozone with lifetime warrenties.

 

You'll pay the same amount for a newer junkyard engine with the wiring harness, ecu, transmission, ect.

 

1st. I still think $300 is optimistic for a motor, just because of what I've seen lately on craigs, but the last one I got was $200, so we'll leave it there.

 

I COULD go MS1, it seems like penny pinching where you shouldn't really. Maybe I don't NEED the resolution for a low buck DD vehicle. So say $210 for MS1 Kit, since I'd assemble my own board.

 

I really don't like the stock dizzy, but I'm picky. I'd go for the extra cost of a crank trigger and sensor. So call that $50 total.

 

I could probably avoid wideband costs all together since I'll have a wideband for my '75 and do I really NEED a wideband all the time? No. Just to tune really. Closed loop wideband is a neat idea, but really not necessary. So call that part of the budget $30 for a bung (if they're even that much)

 

Wiring harness, yes I COULD use spare wiring I have, since I've gutted TWO S130 chassis harnesses and so I have lots of spare wire. But the pre-fab one from DIYautotune is worth it imo. It's one of those things that saves you so much time and headache it's just worth it.

 

Injectors: Hopefully the engine comes with them, and yes I CAN find them cheaper, but if I was gonna push things as lean as they're go safely for MPG sake then I'd want flow tested injectors, which aren't cheap in most cases. Stockers would be "fine" though. So let's call them "free" for the sake of argument.

 

Your sensor numbers are correct. But you really should replace the TPS with a REAL TPSensor, not a TPSwitch. Most people also do this with the conversion to a S13 throttle body which makes it all pretty "plug and play".

 

I still prefer tunerstudio over megatune, but that's licensed per computer, so odds are I can use one license for both my cars.

 

Realistically, MS1 can be done in this case for under $700. But I'd have to find a longblock at a decent price, which is getting harder and harder to do.

 

What the most "logical" route to go would be to just rebuild my stock motor, do MS on my '75, then do MS on my DD. Then the costs would all be spread out and easier to swallow. In the end I bet I'd still have $1k+ invested all told, and I'd still have an L motor, which I'm not sure I'm thrilled about for a DD.

 

Randy:  I've thought about that but it's too soon to get them at a decent price. I'd be better off finding a wreaked 350Z with the VQ, which puts out 280+hp and has a 6 speed. Overall similar design, but even the VQ I don't think I could touch for under $2k minimum, and even that is dreaming I think.

 

 

XNKE: The thing I think you need to remember is that since fabrication is pretty much free for me, swap cost can literally be even, or even less than the cost of a donor once you figure selling parts I don't need and scrapping the rest. I even have enough scrap stainless to make mounts from stainless if I wanted to... So really it comes down to what I can find for what price. I started this thread because I've seen some 01+ ford rangers under 2k that would work just fine as donors... Hence why this thread was centered around that engine, which I think would make a great all around daily driver engine for my needs. Yes I CAN get 30+mpg from the L motor, and that's probably the most practical route. Part of me just doesn't want to do it though, even though I have no intentions of going away from the L motor in my S30 for a long time to come. Can't really explain why.

[randy 77zt]

I have found mustangs on the copart(salvage/insurence auction) website for $1500.That is for a complete car as a wrecker would get it.Problem is you need a license to bid on them.510six bought a complete gm 5.3 engine/trans/wiring package down in Fresno for $1300.If you get away from the bay area things get cheaper.With the modern engines around it really doesnt pay to mess with old school stuff anymore.http://www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?_eventId=changePage&execution=e4s1&_lastAction=lotCompare&listType=&highlightedLotId=0&currentPage=1&currentPageSet=0&sortColumn=&ascending=true&showImage=true&freshRequired=true&eventId=&searchType=ON_SALE_NOW&omniSorting=&omniSortZipClicked=&subfilterForceRequery=false&subfilterYear=&subfilterMake=&subfilterModel=&subfilterFacility=&subfilterSaleDate=&subfilterStateType=&subfilterPrimaryDamage=&resetChosenFilters=&returnPage=SEARCH_RESULTS&mainFilterSelect=%23&filterZipCode=

Edited April 12, 2013 by randy 77zt

[ZROSSA]

If i were doing  another ohv v6 i would be all over that GM high value engine, 60 degrees, light weight and pretty good power. Pity we never had them in the southern hem!

 

Don't forget the toyota 3rz. 2.7l and good gear boxes. Wouldn't mind doing a light weight sports car project with one of those.

 

Cheers,

 

Douglas

[4.6StangRage]

I am big into the Duratec 2.3. I drove an escape with a 2.3 and it has quite a bit of power. For an SUV it got decent mileage and it has 170hp, If boosted you can only imagine!! I also like the duratec 3.0 which are quite common and also come in a N/S configuration. I am critically looking into the Duratec 3.0 or 3.5 if they are similar. I was told the 3.5 was different but i need to research more on that.