Connor280ZX Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 My car is overall running better after the dizzy swap, but i am still getting loud pops or backfires from the intake, as well as a miss here and there. Its more frequent when cold, of course. With the car warmed up, giving it too much gas off of an idle will result in one of these "pops" followed by a stumble. I think someone has messed with the AFM since theres a zip tie holding the access panel on. Its probably running a bit lean... Timing is 10 BTDC. Using Bosch spark plugs, cap and rotor. Plug wires are NGK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirkland1980 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Sounds like you're on the right track. I guess this is non turbo? What year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor280ZX Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 It's an NA 1982. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 http://www.xenons130.com/reference.html ^^^^^^ Your best resource for the S130. Download the FSM and start reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor280ZX Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 http://www.xenons130.com/reference.html ^^^^^^ Your best resource for the S130. Download the FSM and start reading. Yes yes, i've had the FSM on my desktop for a long time now, i've read all about the EMS and ECCS, however there is no troubleshooting for this problem. I'm looking into the TPS, and AFM. Popped open the AFM cover for a brief look today, and looks like the adjustment gear is maybe 6 or 7 teeth clockwise of what looks like a reference mark. I'll take a closer look tommorow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh280z Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Do you have an aftermarket FPR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor280ZX Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Do you have an aftermarket FPR? It's the factory FPR. I opened up the AFM again today, and set the gear back about three teeth counter clockwise, which i believe is enrichment. The idle acctually seems to be steadier now, but ill start it up tommorow when its cold, see how it runs. Gonna tweak the TPS a bit as well to get it to the correct voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) http://www.xenons130.com/reference.html ^^^^^^ Your best resource for the S130. Download the FSM and start reading. The FSM provides little, to no troubleshooting or insight into solving problems. Besides how to rebuild items, disassemble parts and track every single part or electical wire, its not useful for these types of problems. If it was, the above "answer" would solve 90% of the posts here....... Edited August 24, 2013 by steve260z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Actually, Steve...can you shed insight as to where you get that 90% number? How do you prove that 90% of the people with a problem DIDN'T SOLVE IT by reading the FSM and DIDN'T post here as a result? "I just wanted you to know I found the solution to he problem in the FSM, so I don't need to post a question..." Believe it or not those posts DO exist! But not everyone with an FSM Based solution posts when it's solved. Probably better if they didn't... Replacing the AFM, BTW would have solved the issue if his "3 clicks" tweak worked....just like the FSM Suggests. The reason he had to go tweaking is because someone else was determined that the engineers that built and designed the system were clueless as to how it works, and felt they could better solve the issue and "tweaked" the meter initially...calling for him to "untweak it" later! Seriously, if you think troubleshooting is NOT tracing wires, checking components, I think it just may be you that has little insight into troubleshooting and problem solving! I posit that the FSM INDEED solves 90% of the problems we get here...and the other 10% use something in the FSM as a reference to properly resolve the solution. As fit the FSM "not covering this type of issue"....um...aaaaahhh... Right then! And now for something completely different! Edited August 24, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 T, I knew once I posted that someone (probably you....!) would torch me for it. I hear ya but I've been in the same situation before and been frustrated with the manual. Yes, tracing wires is troubleshooting. You are correct. I just get tired of people responding to other peoples problems with the here: "go to Xenon and read the manual". BTW, you're much better than the FSM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) "I knew once I posted that someone (probably you....!) would torch me for it." For god's sake! " Torch"? Grow a sac. Troubleshooting is a mindset. Invariably I have to draw a conclusion that people who can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way are the ones who post these kinds of threads. The FSM doesn't cover popping...??? "The FSM provides little, to no troubleshooting or insight into solving problems. Besides how to rebuild items, disassemble parts and track every single part or electical wire, its not useful for these types of problems" What does Page 58 address, in detail, in step-by-step fashion? You may not LIKE that it entails work to determine what your issue is, but it's disingenuous to claim "The FSM provides little, to no troubleshooting or insight into solving problems. Besides how to rebuild items, disassemble parts and track every single part or electical wire, its not useful for these types of problems" In fact it does. And if you do the checks with proper troubleshooting mindset, you WILL find the answer. The reason most people fail at troubleshooting is they either don't like the answer they get, and want something else to be the answer... Or as a permutation of that, convince themselves it "can't be that simple!" It is, and it can be. That's the basic untold truth about troubleshooting: the systems are usually very simple at some level. When you break them down and check for faults on that level, they become VERY simple to troubleshoot. THAT is the insight the FSM provides. It DOES NOT say "check component" it has you check CIRCUIT (under given conditions, with acceptable and unacceptable result examples.) if CIRCUT check fails, check COMPONENTS of the circuit, individually, with similar parameters and examples. THAT PRECISELY is "insight into troubleshooting or solving problems." You may not like the BASIC ANSWER of "replace component" but that IS the mot basic and effective means of repair and rectification. If you want REPAIR OF ELECTRONIC DEVICES coursework, sign up at your local Community College...this is a book on how to get the car running properly again in the quickest, most effective way. Not limp it along on a starving college student's budget, or a teenager's allowance. Once you IDENTIFY the faulty component, REPAIR is up to you. Troubleshooting identifies defective components. The FSM Takes into account a very low repair skillset, and as a result recommends component replacement. The examples of what happens when unskilled people "repair" these components is self-evident reading thes boards...no need to repeat it other than to,say " most times it ultimately fails in some form or another..." A third permutation is getting to the first failure point and stopping the checks...and going from there, without doing ALL the steps to check all the possibilities or see a correlation between two that may be close to failure which individually don't mean anything but combined cause a problem. The contention that factory engineers with cumulative years exceeding several lifetimes concentrating of failure mode analysis and using group brainstorming could not reasonably be expected to come up with a competent guide to how to diagnose issues in their system is laughable. If "The FSM provides little, to no troubleshooting or insight into solving problems. Besides how to rebuild items, disassemble parts and track every single part or electical wire, its not useful for these types of problems"---it's a failure in basic troubleshooting skills and comprehension on the poster's part. The troubleshooting in the early manuals was specifically aimed at very-low skill technicians who likely never dealt with EFI Previously. As such, the step by step guide of FOUNDATIONAL CONDITIONS/CIRCUIT/COMPONENT Checking methodology is precisely laid out. Skip steps, shortcut, you get the impression that the FSM is useless. "When all else fails, read and follow instructions!" It takes roughly 45 minutes to check the EFI system in most S30/S130 Vehicles. From that I warrant ANY vehicle will be completely diagnosed and have a list of items requiring repair to go frm a yard ornament to running/driving vehicle. From there repeating the process to determine drivability issues is another similar process. And yes, it's generally all in the FSM. Over 99% by my experience. I don't try to think I'm smarter than he guys who built it. I listen to their advice (FSM), act accordingly, and am rewarded with solutions very quickly. I don't celebrate the process of "individual discovery", I don't have the time to waste rethinking that which has already been thought out 40 years ago. Usually when things go wrong, go back to the basics, follow the instructions and you come to a solution. Out hinting the creators usually gets you in a repetitive logic loop of incorrect assumptions and false data caused by improper testing or intuition that has led you from he simplicity of OEM Engineering into a glorified realm of complexities that simply doesn't exist. Fly 8 hours, move a wire from terminal 102 to 103 and call the national service manager to tell him that's the problem, that it was ALWAYS the problem, and to cancel the $5,800 in parts ordered by "the other guy" a few times and you realize people skip the basics, and you just can't do that. When the National SM blurts out "that's on the wiring diagram!!!" all you can do is say 'yes, it is...' First step in that troubleshooting manual under "MD Drum does not rotate" is what? "Verify wiring connections" -- not that wires "are present"... but that 1 goes to 1, 2 goes to 2, 3 goes to 3 ... 102 goes to 102, and 103 goes to 103.... Not glamour work, but a FIVE MINUTE TEDIOUS CHECK that solved the ROOT CAUSE: incorrect field wiring. Across industries, it's universal. The steps seem vague and stupid... But when you do them...it works! To say "The FSM provides little, to no troubleshooting or insight into solving problems. Besides how to rebuild items, disassemble parts and track every single part or electical wire, its not useful for these types of problems" is just plain wrong, and unfair to the guys who spent collaboratively man-years writing a manual for people to use to troubleshoot in an effective manner. Page 58 proves the disingenuous nature of such a comment. The side issue that you aren't really assisting Connor solve his problem spewing your problems with the FSM -- it doesn't progress the situation. Obi-Wan came back to Luke in the Trench with a phrase....one I paraphrased and used once with a co-worker long distance..."Trust your instruments, Tim!" In the heat of the moment it gets easy to overthink things. Since that time, now close to 20 years ago...Tim has called me several times laughing as he was out on a site troubleshooting, getting frustrated, at the end of his rope exasperated and the "I hear your voice from that damn phone call at XYZ 'Tim, trust your instruments'...and I just go back to the troubleshooting chart, MAKE SURE everything is set up like it says, and I find the problem!" It's a joke between us now, it was kind of a joke then...but in humour lies underlying truth...which is why it's funny. In 30 years of NOT trying to outthink the guys who made it, and just listening to their advice...it hasn't steered me wrong yet. And infecting others with that mindset has made their lives easier as well! "Connor, use the FSM! Trust your instruments." Edited August 25, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) T, I knew once I posted that someone (probably you....!) would torch me for it. I hear ya but I've been in the same situation before and been frustrated with the manual. Yes, tracing wires is troubleshooting. You are correct. I just get tired of people responding to other peoples problems with the here: "go to Xenon and read the manual". BTW, you're much better than the FSM! This forum is not Cars 101. If you can't figure out the basics, then go back and do some more learning. Edited August 25, 2013 by ktm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Obi-Wan came back to Luke in the Trench with a phrase....one I paraphrased and used once with a co-worker long distance..."Trust your instruments, Tim!" In the heat of the moment it gets easy to overthink things. Since that time, now close to 20 years ago...Tim has called me several times laughing as he was out on a site troubleshooting, getting frustrated, at the end of his rope exasperated and the "I hear your voice from that damn phone call at XYZ 'Tim, trust your instruments'...and I just go back to the troubleshooting chart, MAKE SURE everything is set up like it says, and I find the problem!" It's a joke between us now, it was kind of a joke then...but in humour lies underlying truth...which is why it's funny. In 30 years of NOT trying to outthink the guys who made it, and just listening to their advice...it hasn't steered me wrong yet. And infecting others with that mindset has made their lives easier as well!"Connor, use the FSM! Trust your instruments." Tony, I've read many of your posts. Maybe most of them. Above is one of your best. Yes, I was over the top. It was a quick response to what I mentioned before, the "go check xenon" stamp response. Really got tired of it over on Zcar.com. Saw it too many times. One particular problem came to mind when I posted that response. I had a problem that I couldn't find a solution in the FSM. Car would run fine and start choking off after about 30 minutes. Let the car sit for 5 minutes and I could get it home. That was 5-7 years ago. I went through the FSM back them and couldn't find a solution to the problem. What was the problem? Car acts like its out of fuel after 30 minutes. Let it sit and I can limp it home. Did I guess the problem/solution correctly? Yes. Did I find it in the FSM after looking? No. Right now I just went through my hard copy FSM for the early 74 260z. As it sits in front of me, the solution is on page EF-11. Under "Condition" it says: " Fuel pump fails to discharge sufficient flow." "Probable cause:Clogged Filter". Bingo....Well, its not so simple. To the novice mechanic or wanna be mechanic, which I was at the time, I had no idea the; "Fuel pump fails to discharge sufficient flow" was the problem. Actual problem could have been a bad coil, bad plug wires, degraded wiring from the steering column on down, bad fuel pump and ok filter, battery terminal corrosion....list goes on. Would FSM be a better reference if it addressed the RESULTS of a clogged filter upon the fine car? Hell yes. So, is the FSM perfect for the novice? Nope. Not at all. Is everyone here a competent mechanic? Nope. Am I? Nope...... steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Well, my post didn't post... See KTM's answer. It is not fair to blame a manual that is designed for a minimum level of competency for one's own incompetence. There is no "How to Keep your Datsun Alive, a Step-By-Step Guide for the Compleat Idiot" that includes the Z-Car. http://www.datsun510.com/manuals/How_to_Keep_Your_Datsun_L_Z_Series_Nissan_Alive_1968-1986.pdf There was a time up to the late 80's where it wasn't unfashionable to acknowledge we ourselves are indeed, idiots. After that it became fashionable to push the blame on others for our own lack of effort or preparation. Indeed, the FSM assumes a level of competence not had by all. But that is not to say it's useless...more aptly it's "youseless"--not he manual, YOU! I had a much better post before...it's a shame the Internet is so buggy right now. It was a nice bit including a bit about John Muir, a man who's writings were influential in shaping how I approached all things mechanical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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