laxz6 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hey guys so I have a 280z l28et with ms2 v3.0 Running the turbo distributor. I have a 24x12x2.3 intercooler and running 440cc supra injectors with a tial bov and a boost controller set at 12psi. I have a 3in downpipe all the way out with a bigger compressor wheel on the stock turbo. So I just got my car dynoed 2 days ago and I'm unhappy with the result. I made 195hp and 237ft tq. I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the tune because I've seen Similar setup hitting 300hp and around 358tq. Does anyone have a map that has been proven to hit 300hp. I've spent too much time on Megasquirt and the wiring to just not see a lot of hp gain. Any help is appreciated, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winstonusmc Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 What are your AFRs and timing at full boost? How does the car feel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Can you post the AFR part from your dyno session and your MSQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Looking at the shape of the graph, you're not revving high enough and I would bet you're runnning a very conservitive timing map. The undulations around peak torque show a either a spark issue or a lean-rich-lean-rich issue...you're close, but it's all in the tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxz6 Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 What are your AFRs and timing at full boost? How does the car feel? Sorry for taking long to reply, been busy with work. Here is my afr map that it has, seems kind of odd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxz6 Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 The car does seem to run good but i wish to have more power and better gas mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkRev Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Laxz6 Your Air Fuel Bins is just a static rich number. Take a look at this thread and look at some of the posts of the afr. http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/34536-megasquirt-map-information-sharing-all-code-versions/ Also read up on MS extra docs. This will help you a lot http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Tuning_Manual.html. Unfortunately you just can not use someones proven map and expect it to be a plug and play. Every engine is different. But their map can help you get your car to a starting point. Best advise I can give you. Take your car to someone for dyno tuning. It will be well worth your money and time. Best of luck Edited February 9, 2014 by AkRev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkRev Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Also in looking at your timing map. I would have the high range in kpa at about 200. Also I am worried about the amount of advance that you are running at that high of boost. I would hope you have a knock sensor to protect you. Take to time to look over some of the timing maps of others. Here are some of the examples from that forum link I posted in my last post. http://dcer.smugmug.com/photos/172390692-M.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/X64v/TurboTiming.jpg http://forums.hybridz.org/uploads/1/0/1/8/4/spark.JPG http://forums.hybridz.org/uploads/1/6/0/9/1/ignition%20good2.JPG http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/X64v/SparkTable8-20-08.jpg Best of luck Edited February 12, 2014 by AkRev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winstonusmc Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 That's way too much timing as well. Are planning on boosting 28psi? The load in your ignition map is not very linear. Go to the map sharing thread in the FAQ and look at the ignition maps. I will post mine up in a little bit. I concur with what AkRev said, you can't just copy a tune. But that tune I have questions on the source engine as well. I did Copy too, but I used the stock ROMs from a Nissan ECU to give me a starting point with ignition and AFR. Hey, Nissan engineers know way more than me, even 30 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 AFR's are too rich, and not enough timing around 100kpA. You should hit full advance at 100kpA, and THEN start pulling timing. Too much timing at the higher boost ranges; as others have said. Really looks like someone took a performance 220kpA spark map and just re-scaled it for 300kpA...That won't work. AFR's will not be the same everywhere...you'll be richest at peak torque, about 12.5:1, and then a little leaner at peak HP, 13.5-14:1. Idle will be whatever the engine wants...mine likes it about 13.1-13.2:1, others want richer, others can go leaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Have you adjusted your fuel and timing tables yet??.. Any results???... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392596002&sr=1-1&keywords=advanced+engine+management+tuning Worth every penny. Covers not just how to tune your tables, but explains a rough overview of the science behind what's going on and WHY you tune WHAT, HOW, and in WHAT ORDER. These are all VERY key in tuning anything to it's limits to get the most power possible and also maintain good driveability and economy. Oh, and don't beat yourself up too much. Just under 200 to the wheels on a lightly modded stock turbo running 12psi on a stock head isn't THAT far off. The people making 300hp are usually running more like 20+psi on a lightly modded head, or 25+ on a stock head, and almost guaranteed on a MUCH larger compressor than I bet you're running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 So sorry to read your post. I am planning a swap that sounds VERY similar to yours. I was hoping for 300 RWHP as well. Did we get mislead or did I not read enough and let my mind think a little to far out there? Have you had any better results lately? I sure would like to read more about anything your learning. I'm sticking to the build plan and will upgrade as needed further down the road. I wish I was at your point right now. It might be later this year to be where your at. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) So sorry to read your post. I am planning a swap that sounds VERY similar to yours. I was hoping for 300 RWHP as well. Did we get mislead or did I not read enough and let my mind think a little to far out there? I've seen more primitive setups reach 300whp... But we have ZERO specs on the turbo, and 12 psi is NOTHING and won't get you to 300hp in your wildest dreams on a stock head. Ported, cammed etc? Now that's a different story. EDIT: To expand - The stock turbine MIGHT be able to reach 300whp, I've seen people get close, but it's a HELL of a lot of work to get it to flow that. I've also seen the stock fuel system reach 300whp, but it runs pig rich 90% of the time in order to do it, and takes a few hacks that are hardly "kosher" to most. The missing factor here is a tune running up to 18psi. Run THOSE pressures and MAYBE we'll be getting close to 300whp. Edited February 26, 2014 by Gollum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks Gollum What psi porting and cams will get us there? But like I said, I'll start small so it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Stock P90A head is about ready to go to the machine shop for a basic valve job. What do you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Stock P90A head is about ready to go to the machine shop for a basic valve job. What do you suggest. Spend $1,000-$1,500 to at least have some basics done. 1. Fresh valve grind is good, and a competition shop will know what to do here. You can reduce the seat surface and alter the angles slightly with a 3 angle job to improve flow a bit. 2. Clean up the chamber, this is by FAR the most important part. There's a LOT of material around the valve seat that can be removed to unshroud the valves a lot. After this the cambers will need to be CC'ed to keep them consitent, and to calculate compression, which will be needed for optimal cam selection. Most shops have done chamber work before, and what works on most engines will work on these, it's not rocket science. 3. Raise the intake ports. Leave the base of the intake port where it is, and increase the diameter/cross section to about 1.4-1.5", tapering down of course towards the bowl area. 4. Clean the ports. There's a thread showing a P90 cut up to display the ports. You can then EASILY see where the exhaust and the intake port can be opened up to provide a cleaner taper to the bowl. 5. Blend bowl area to the valve seat. This is another thing that most shops have done on other performance engines, and it nothing "special" here. The exhaust seats tend to have severe transitions into the bowl area that can be opened up and smoothed out. The intake isn't as BAD from the factory, but can still be opened up a bit to allow air velocity to slow just enough to make a smooth transition into the chamber. 6. Select the RIGHT cam. Not every cam will perform the same on all motors. A cam should be matched to the head work. Gather information from this website, and take it to your machine shop and discuss cam options. ISKY makes great cams for these motors, and will even do custom grinds to suit your needs. Also remember that what is good for NA is usually good for turbo. People like to say to limit overlap as much as possible for turbo application, but I've personally experienced and also seen plenty of cases that prove that overlap isn't always bad. Look at all of the hundreds of NA engines making 100+ hp per liter and revving to 8k and beyond that once turbocharged make plenty of horsepower and aren't suffering from "bad cams".... The cam works for the head, period, so stop trying to involve the turbo in head flow dynamics... 7. Setup the cam CORRECTLY. This can make MORE difference than the head porting if done incorrectly. This is something you can do quite a bit of research here and find a coupe of ways to come to the right conclusion. It's not JUST about wipe patterns... I won't even go into it because it's so well covered. 8. Port match the intake. This might be hard to do with the stock NA or turbo intake, but do what you can, even if you can't increase the radius all the way through the runner. What many people do is to cut the plenum open so you can easily get a hone all the way through the runners, clean up the plenum, and then weld it back together. I've listed those in an order of importance, but of course these all work together as a SYSTEM and when done correctly can yield amazing gains. It can quite seriously be the difference between making 150 to the wheels, or making 250 to the wheels, in NA trim, so imagine how much that can effect turbocharged setups. Beyond that, so much of the power comes down to the TUNE TUNE TUNE. There's lots of NA engines out there that are losing out on 15% or MORE of their potential power because it's not tuned well. And MANY times when people end up reaching optimal torque in ONE region they fail to optimize torque across the board, leaving tons of power on the table under the curve. Porting done right, you could be at 300whp at less than 14psi, well under even, but you're going to need something in the larger T4 frame size to flow enough air. That said, a STOCK completely OEM P90 ontop of a OEM turbo block and pistons will reach 300whp at around 16-18psi. You'll need fairly cool air though, so a T3/T4 hybrid is recommended, along with an intercooler, since even many T4 compressors are going to outside of their efficiency range at those power levels. If you can't reach 300whp at 18psi, then odds are either your air temps are really high, or your tune is leaving power on the table. Any combination between these two extremes is fine, just don't expect there to be a magic bullet. I can't stress enough, it's ALL about the SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM. The engine is an air pump, and if you don't do your homework on how it operates don't ever expect power to come easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davek Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 All valuable information. I will discuss with the head shop. The cost is however not in the budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elishallen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Hey davek, I ran across this when I was trying to decide what head to choose for my build. You may want to read the part about the Hydraulic head and using high lift cams! http://datsunzgarage.com/p90/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Did you do a datalog of the dyno session? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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