Baby on the way...buying my first Z car for the weekends stuck at home

[matsonjb]

So, long time lurker here...and I mean a long time. In the Navy and haven't been able to be in one place for long enough to start a project, but now the wife says we can.

Anyways I grew up in Z cars, mom had an 86ZX, learned to drive stick on a 300ZX, wife had a Z32, I had an R32 Skyline GTR when I was in Japan for 1.5 years (Miss it to this day), so it sort of runs in the blood. 

 

We are looking to buy our first classic Z car. Wife wanted another Z32 but I put the kabosh on that. Since we are due in July, this will be a baby present to ourselves, since we are going to be stuck in the house on the weekends for a while. 

 

I would preferably keep/swap an L28 in and minimize the electronics like a nice throwback, but there is another part of me that wants to put that RB in and restomod it. 

While we do not need a car this moment and I am doing my research thoroughly...which like opening pandoras box can be harmful to the wallet, have questions

 

1) What model would be the best for the situation above? I am looking at the 280Z since it has the L28 in it and I can refresh/mod that and make it into what I want to. 

2) Price? What would I be looking for a decent daily driver, non garage not yet rust bucket? 

3) If I go RB, which since the wife is pushing me to, body strengthening/reenforcement could be down by roll bar, but what else? 

4) Essential shop materials? We have a good amount but for body, need welder (Looking at Hobart), cutter and everything. We do not want to setup our own shop but want to do it as much as DIY as we can.

 

I know I am probably the 10^25 person to state this but given that 

 

1) My wife wants it - biggest hurdle 

2) We have the space - Standalone man cave/detached garage

3) We have the time - Yeah baby = no more drinking on the weekends 

4) We have the money - While there is a budget, we are not eating Ramen and water, 

5) We don't aim for the bushes - aka we are not that overconfident guy that rips apart his L28 and gets someone else to put it back together...

 

 

[dexter72]

If it were me, i would look into how much each engine/drive trane option will cost me on average. Engine Trans, and Rear diff.

 

RB Swap. L28 Turbo Swap is a possible option.

 

Are you going Standalone, factory, or RB Wiring swap also. 

 

Then figure out interior replacement costs.

 

Lastly body work, and that depends on what car you buy and what you find once you start checking for rust, previous bad body work and so on.

 

I don't think you need a roll bar for an RB Powered Z. Unless its going to be a track car.

 

Thats how i decide what im going to do, Good Luck.

[matsonjb]

That is the thing, I have learned in the past doing it cheaply (not inexpensive) the first requires you to pay for it twice.

 

I found an RB setup for 2K with tranny and such, but the motor was in pieces for a rebuild that never happened. but I can factor that in for 2-3K if I pick and choose my build. This does not include the required mounts and such which would put 750 or so on. 

 

Luckily I have an uncle that owns a big salvage yard in FL that can get me the parts I need aka I pull them myself for the R200 and such. 

 

I am pretty good with electrical wiring as I helped wire my friends Tomei built SR20 into his Silvia when we were in Japan. as such I still have my FSM from my GTR...which I miss a bunch. 

 

If I do go RB, I will probably keep it as stock as I can with doing away with non essential systems (EGR, etc etc). Run a Power FC which I had and really opened up the car. 

 

The reason I am leaning towards the RB is that if I get the L28, I will cam it, header it, triple weber it, etc etc and then I would be like...damn should have gotten the RB. Now I can always ask the wifey to allow to be another one but still...

 

For the interior, it will be a project with the wife for redoing it. It's like a big project on the body work, interior covering, refurbing and such. 

 

Wife has worked on her dad's 69 GTO or whatever year it is and wants to learn more. 

 

I have a background on Mech/General Engineering so I have the brain to work that stuff out...she doesn't...yet.

 

For the roll cage, I know it isn't just for race, my buddies GTR which was on HKS Twins made 550 at wheels and the roof paint was cracked due to the body warpage, want to avoid it. 

 

Now this car won't be winning award for the paint and such but most of it will be a stepping stone to other projects that we might come of, will be my mid life crisis car, or better yet ours because I have to say it like that. 

 

Since I am looking for a strong body, it would be better for the 280Z correct? Rust will be there but where are the points of failure besides the typical floor, rails, and battery tray?

[Pharaohabq]

Hey thank you for serving... 

 

There's a lot to think of when starting a project...  But first let me talk a little about Babies and project cars.  They don't mix. You won't have all the time you're expecting. I know. My daughter is 22 mo old and that's about how long my project cars have been stalled. Babies are wonderful, but they take up a ton of time and you can't expect your wife to do all of it. it just doesn't work that way. Your wife will be super tired as will you, since babies do not sleep more than about 3 hours at a time during the first 6 months. Maybe you know this. Also babies and car fixing don't mix, too much fumes etc. Z's aren't kid cars either.  Now if you can afford a nanny...

 

That being said, there's so much you can do to a Z car to improve it's performance and durability.

First I really think you should do a bit of reading on here about race prep. Even though you may not be racing. The information about stitch welding seams and replacing rails and upgrading various parts like brakes and suspension will be invaluable when you're making your budget.  It will be your car and your baby, so don't let anyone tell you how to raise/build either of them. All choices are yours and your wife's. We are here for constructive input. It's up to you to decide whether to listen to us or not.  We've written all about rust on here, so please search and read all about it and where you'll find it. This same holds true for how to do a lot of the upgrades we're talking about.  So again Please search.

 

When you do find a car, We can help you diagnose any issues and we can point you to where to look for parts and upgrades as well.  If you go with 240, 260 or 280Z, it's really up to you. the 240's were lighter, the 280's a little heavier especially with the bumpers. The early 240's are more expensive to start with, The 280's have fuel injection. There's a lot of nuances, which I'm sure you know already. So, no there's not really much any advantage to taking a 280z over a 240z, unless you're looking to save weight.  So really it's what S30 can you find in the best shape for the least money? 

 

There's a lot of skills that will help you, As a mech engineer, you're already programmed correctly to solve most things. but, can you weld? That will help a lot with body work.  Upgrading other areas will be up to you to decide what you want to do then we'll give suggestions on how we've seen it done. If you think up a better way then great, we'll add it to our knowledge, and you might be the Z king for the day. 

 

So YAY!  Welcome back and congrats on the Kid. Just plan things and budget your time. You'll do great. We can't wait to see pictures...

 

Thanks again

Phar

[seattlejester]

Welcome to the forums!

 

I'd say you are off to a good start. You have the most basic essentials taken care of, finances, space, time, and most importantly blessing from the spouse.

 

Definitely follow your heart. It seems like you are pretty set on an RB motor from fondness for the GTR. My only advice would be not to hold it up to the same regard. The interior won't be nearly the same in creature comfort, the fit and finish of the install will be quite different, it will be RWD, etc etc.

 

With that said, don't throw the L28 with triple webers and exhaust under the bus, it's quite a good combo, and as mentioned you can turbo it pretty easily. Just things to keep in mind. Plus if you do headers and triple webers, you can always sell the parts later on. Those two parts in general keep their value pretty well. If you get a chance find someone local and go for a ride, an L28 at full song with exhaust and carb induction noise is life changing.

 

I don't know what you consider a budget, but people will tell you an RB swap is not cheap. Like you can import a GTR or two not cheap (1990 model GTR's are now legal for import ).

 

If your key is to minimize electronics, the 240z will have the minimum. No fuel injection etc. If you choose to go RB later, you will have to replace all the fuel lines and the tank, so you won't even have to consider keeping the old stuff. The engine wiring harness will pretty much be new as well, so once again no consideration for keeping the old stuff.

 

So a 240z will initially have less wiring/electronics, the carbs are simple, the chassis is a tad lighter. For a future RB swap it is more of a blank canvas.

 

A 280z on the other hand will have the r200, a fuel injection system, a baffled fuel tank, etc, slightly heavier, slightly more reinforced. Granted all this stuff will be 30+ years old, so it may need refreshing at the minimum.

 

The general consensus though is to buy whatever car is in the best shape (least amount of rust). Unless you are absolutely married to a specific chassis and you are not willing to make aesthetic changes, you should buy the best condition chassis you can afford regardless of the model type.

 

If you want a race car a shell may be a good place to start if you plan on taking out the driveline and reinforcing the chassis anyway. Otherwise buy a complete as possible car that is maybe a little rough on the interior or mechanically unsound, buying a beauty queen to tear apart would be kind of a big blow to your wallet for no good reason. The little pieces will add up so having a complete interior if you want to keep it streetable will be a big blessing.

 

A full roll cage would be very uncomfortable and would be quite unsafe to drive it on the street. If 550hp is your goal you may want to look into weak points in the chassis rather then putting a jungle gym in the car that you can bash your head against. Unless you went all out with gusset plates and tied in suspension pickup points, I'm not sure you could rely on a cage to keep a flimsy body together. Would be more advisable to replace floors and put in reinforcement plates, braces, and brackets for more stress prone areas. As long as you aren't launching the car too hard chassis twisting shouldn't be too much of a problem. A local guy builds v8 swapped cars and was surprised when I told him about adding beams for stiffness. He said even with LS swaps he hasn't had problems with chassis twisting.

 

Places to look for rust. Someone familiar with classic cars or a local z enthusiast/shop will know the areas really well. If you haven't probed around old cars looking for tell tale signs of rust, it would be advisable to take someone who has along with you. The biggest problem I see is people mistakenly diagnosing rust as "oh just surface rust," or missing to spot a swelling paint bubble or chipping undercoating. A 20 here, lunch, or a few bottles of beer should be enough to ask an acquaintance to go look at a car with you.

 

 

For shop supplies...it really is limitless, I may come back to this list later as it is something I always wanted to make.

 

First off is to make a list of rules that you will follow yourself. AKA clean up garage after each use, put tools back, take out garbage, sweep, etc etc.

Peg board or tool chests will help in finding tools and making sure tools get back to their proper home.

If you plan on doing a lot of body work yourself and this is an attached garage, it may be time to consider sound proofing. It will help keep sanity in the house hold, a nice insulated door will help keep sound from transmitting too much.

Venting may be something  you want to look into. A small fan with a shutter can help vent harmful fumes from body work. Welding and painting give off copious harmful fumes and you would definitely want to keep that away from your family and yourself.

Heating may be important to look into if you live in a cold climate.

Lighting is really important. You want to have lights at a variety of locations, not just a central light. My dream garage would have detachable florescent lights lining the walls on the floor.

Shelves and boxes will be very helpful for keeping items organized for when you need to find them down the road. Making a habit of labeling zip-lock bags and boxes will be a true blessing when reassembly comes down the line.

Lots of tape (electrical, masking, painting, etc), and pens/chalk/stone markers will make it a breeze to reach up and grab them when you need to mark or label.

Shop vac for cleaning up dust from sanding and body filler will help keep dust out of the air.

Fire extinguisher...yea that would have come in handy a few times.

 

A big garbage can that you can fill and seal and take to the dump will be important. You will find problems if you are dumping your shop waste into your household garbage, you can definitely generate quite a bit of waste while working on a car.

A good broom and dust pan will definitely help keep the garage space neat and clean.

A large amount of kitty litter to absorb the inevitable spill.

Large amount of shop towels.

Disposable and non disposable gloves.

An assortment of tools will be handy, couple of sets of wrenches, basic, ratcheting, short, long, jointed etc will be useful. Ratchets of varying size and adjustability as well as a set of metric short and long sockets (3/8th and 1/4 for smaller spaces), a 1/2 inch set that is impact ready will be useful for heavier duty items extentions and ujoints, and wobble heads will make getting to some of the trickier bolts an easy task. A set of allen head sockets will come in handy in a few places, a set of allen wrenches for the really small inaccessable locations. A breaker bar to get the really stubborn bolts, they sell ratcheting versions as well as the basic version. Torque wrenches will be really useful for reassembly. Screw drivers, phillips and flathead of varying length will be great. Hammers, punches, chisels, impact drivers etc. Adjustable crescent wrenches, pipe wrenches, strap wrenches, and vice grips.

Impact gun, air or otherwise will make your life much easier. Depending on how lazy/thrifty you are an electric or pneumatic ratchet will make short work of tightening and loosening. An air hammer will be useful as well for bushings and sound deadening removal. A sawzall will be nice if you need to cut out some major body work, an air saw/electric saw will be nice for smaller pieces. A dremel will be great for those little deburring or shapping projects. An electric shear, flanger, and hole puncher can come in handy as well.

An angled die grinder will be helpful for fabrication along with a welder. You can get a lot done with your basic mig setup. I want to say mine is a hobart handler 130? and the only problem I've had is trying to weld a bead upside down. Having two tanks is also great so you can take the empty tank in when you run dry. An autodarkening helmet is also really a must. Will really help on seeing your welds. Attaching a light to said helmet will really make welding much more enjoyable. 

A good bench vise solidly mounted will make a great object for pressing out bushings and hammering and shaping metal.

Depending on the level of shaping, a bending brake and body shapping hammers and dolly along with sandbags will help in getting just the right curvatures and bends.

 

Plenty of protection, gloves, respirators, ear plugs, ear muffs, spark protector.

 

I will add more and organize this in a little bit, that should be more than enough to get you started.

Edited March 10, 2014 by seattlejester

[Phantom]

Welcome aboard sailor. Retired Navy myself.  Norfolk - been a long time since I was last there.

You've received a lot of good information in the previous posts.  I'm actually quite impressed with what I read. As already said - do a lot more reading and asking questions before you launch into this project.  It will save you time and money in the long run.

Body wise - Find the best, rust free one you can and then fix it before doing anything else.  Repair the rust, reinforce the welds, add frame rail connectors if it's a 240, and locate some good front and rear strut tower supports. One thing I do know from personal experience is that my LS1 will twist my car - and it's a stiffer 280.  I've had to reseal my windshield several times.  The original 240Z had the nickname "flexi flyer" by the guys who used to road race them years ago. 

I personally agonized over what I was going to do engine wise on my car.  I looked at an L28 stroker, L28ET, RB26 and V8's.  I settled on the LS1 because I wanted a solid 300+ HP to the rear wheels with OEM maintainability and reliability.  That said - to thine own self be true.

As you decide on your drivetrain upgrade (you'll also need an R200 LSD with CV's or an R230 out of a turbo Z32) don't fail to make decisions on the suspension modifications you want to make and braking upgrades.  Trust me, when it comes to braking, stock just won't cut it if you start getting heavy handed with 500+ HP.  What you do for suspension will also affect what you can do for wheels and tires as coil overs will give you more room under the stock fender well.  Then, of course, you could go with a fiberglass wide body kit like the ones from Reaction Research and be able to run huge tire widths.

Thousands of decisions to be made.  Develop an outline of what you want to do and then figure out the most efficient order to do it in.

Have fun!

[osirus9]

The import ban is starting to lift on the R32 depending on the date of manufacture. As long as it's 25 years old, you can import it legally. Just sayin....

 

I love my Z though, got a rust free California car for a good deal and it was a great purchase. Not having to do rust repair saved a ton of time and money and headaches. Also starting with the 280Z platform has been nice since I didn't have to swap anything to get all the desirable engine and drivetrain parts.

 

I plan on just turboing the L28, and I should be good to 350hp easily on the stock bottom end. If you're looking for more power than that, its certainly been done on the L28, and for a lot cheaper than an RB swap. But if your heart is set on an RB swap then just go for it, it's your car after all.

[superlen]

+1 on condition, condition, condition.....of the body. Engines, trannys, & Interiors are easy for the DIYer with the least amount of outlay for welders and bodywork tools, ect. Body work isn't hard per se, but you need another set of tools and it is messy....very messy. You'll be angle grinding grit all over the place, torching panels perhaps, grating bondo, sanding bondo, spraying primer. It's fun but so is swapping engines and cleaning engine parts and you can do that with a good basic set of tools.

 

If you farm out the body work, the less rust you have to start with, the less money you have to spend.

 

All of this advise goes out the window of course when you find "the" car. It could be a pile of crap with most of the parts in totes, but if it speaks to you. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

 

Congrats on the baby. My wife and I are expecting in April & I'm already planning on working from home three days a week all summer.

 

Lenny

[matsonjb]

Sorry I haven't replied but I thought I would save it, as I just bought in a package deal a 2 X 240Z and a spare L24 w/4 Speed and Triple Weber Setup for....$2500 bucks. The two cars are a father and son owned and have been sitting in a garage for decades.

 

The son was selling them to make space and they have been garaged for since 1981 and another since '02. They have slight rust in places you would expect, lower body panels, slight on the roof, and the doomed battery on one of them. Paint is pretty rough but it comes with it. 

 

Positives-1 has uncracked dash, other one has a small crack. All interior panels are good, floors seem to be good, and the trunk was rust free. Not a complete restore but good body.

 

The one thing that popped out was the spare motor that had a Triple Weber setup that was just mentioned as spare motor. When I saw the pictures that sold me. 

 

I can easily make money and flip one to pay for the other as I will but I will definitely be going over it. My wife will be coordinating it as I am Germany but definitely a good buy (hopefully)

Edited April 9, 2014 by matsonjb

[osirus9]

Sounds like quite a lucky find! Got any pics of the ladies?