Turboing my Z

[s30kid]

So I currently saving up my money right now so I can go on a shopping spree of turbo Goodies and before I make all the purchases I would like to run my shopping list by you guys for your input. 

 

My current setup is...

F54 block n47 head Dished pistons I believe

Megasquirt II 3.57 assembled board with relay board as well running fuel only (needs to be tuned)

5-speed

3.9 diff soon to be welded

Shaved and ported intake with 240sx tb

Stock Injectors

Headers (not relevant with a turbo I guess) 

 

My plan is to run 5-10lbs safely Its my DD so I am afraid to blow it but I have the ability to rebuild it..... again....

 

The motor is really strong and I am a very spirited driver. Anything I throw at my car it can handle. So I think the motor can handle boost.

 

Things I want to buy are..

 

MSD 6al with spark rev limit and I think they have boost retard. I don't have a 280zx dizzy so I am wondering if I can run Megasquirt fuel only and use the msd to handle the spark. (is it possible to run the stock ing? Im worried about detonation..)

Turbo manifold

Stock turbo and wastegate

cheap intercooler

BOV

2.5 inch down pipe

boost gauge

and eventually a wideband. 

 

I work right next door to Mckinney motorsports and a few other race shops so I am going to ask around for a good tune/dyno shop. 

 

I am also wondering if the stock injectors can handle 5-10lbs of boost if I increase the fuel pressure and maybe the pulse width(duration) of the injectors through megasquirt? I know everyone is going to tell me to get turbo injectors or rx7 injectors but im on a budget so anywhere possible to save money im going to take it.

 

I have done alot of research on the subject and I think I have a decent beginner setup I am just wondering what your thoughts are on my build before I spend the money.

 

[~KnuckleDuster~]

Where do you work? You have probably seen my black Z around those parts if you've been there awhile.

Edited June 24, 2014 by ~KnuckleDuster~

[s30kid]

I work at ProAuto 

 

This is my Z

 

[~KnuckleDuster~]

I've heard rumor of this Z flying around town with no exhaust.

[s30kid]

Another question I have is if I get the 280zxt dizzy does it have a trigger wheel for megasquirt or do I still need to get the trigger wheel and sensor from diyAutotune?

[s30kid]

Thats me haha. Headers 2.5 exhaust and a cat that's it.

[seattlejester]

Wideband should be one of the first things on your list, as well as a way to control ignition, you have untapped potential in your current setup, might as well use it while you await boost .

 

Your thinking is a bit unconventional.

 

Not sure why you would want to run an MSD box when you have megasquirt, that seems a bit backwards. You have megasquirt 2 already, and an MSD box costs upwards of 200$. I'm pretty sure you can get a turbo oil pump and distributor for less then that. Or you can definitely get a a trigger wheel, hall effect sensor, and coil packs or a megasquirt friendly type distributor for less then 200$.

 

Upping regulator pressure to force more fuel through the injectors is a bandaid, you could potentially hold them open for a bit longer with more fuel pressure, but you are fighting a couple of factors. The longer they are held open the faster the fuel pressure drops, to remedy this you up the fuel pressure to help with the recovery. Upping the pressure opens a couple of other problems, really not the best idea.

 

As you say, some 440cc supra injectors on an aftermarket cockerstar or palnet fuel rail will be much more reliable. Or at least the injectors from the turbo car. The factory injectors are 188cc I believe. A really really really really really really really rough rule of thumb is 1hp per cc with about a million other variables, but as a rough guide line it is not bad, you usually want an injector to run no more then 80% duty cycle and a bone stock 280zx turbo will run ~180hp so you would want a ~220cc injector (factory turbo is 265cc). So you could possibly run more pressure to get you by, but not necessarily recommended. If you are on a budget maybe perusing some american makes for injectors/junkyard diving or maybe taking a look at some injector service companies that can modify injectors may better fit your budget.

 

To get most of the parts you are going to need to harvest a turbo car anyway. Might as well take the other parts to really make use of the swap, turbo, manifold, oil pump, distributor, crank pulley, injector, etc. You don't need the AFM since you have megasquirt and the 240sx throttle body. The most budget friendly way you are going to be able to proceed is to take a l28et swap and massage that into your car. You already have the most expensive part of the process which is megasquirt, so putting an L28et complete swap with your intake manifold/throttlebody/ecu would be the most budget friendly option. 

 

Looking forward to what you decide.

[s30kid]

I have no problem swaping a complete turbo motor into my car, the only contributing factors are 1) I need it done in a weekend (not to hard i have done it before) and 2) I need to source a good running motor and in socal junkyards is not an easy find.. 

 

I just wanted to turbo my motor that I have because it is already a turbo motor but if I swap then I have a spare if I happen to blow the turbo motor.. So I guess I have some thinking to do and some part sourcing. 

 

The reason I liked the msd idea was because it is a stand alone thing and I like all the features they have like spark cut rev limit and 2 step. 

 

So now I guess I need to find a tuner who is familiar with Megasquirt and start sourcing a motor.

 

Ill keep you guys posted 

[seattlejester]

Given how easy it is to pull the L-series, I would say having a complete motor to swap in would actually be faster then removing and reinstalling manifolds etc. A weekend is going to be mighty tight to get it all sorted, should be a fun adventure.

 

Just for your information, MS2 also has the ability to do both fuel and spark cut, and since two step is essentially a spark cut at a certain rpm, it can definitely accomplish that. I believe it even has a launch control tab in the current stable version, haven't looked into it much, but there are a few people running around with it. 

 

Just so I don't come off all weird, you can definitely run megasquirt to control fuel only and run MSD to control all the spark/ignition related items, nothing wrong with that.

[dexter72]

You still need a few parts so I would start making a list and checking prices.

 

Turbo oil pan or weld a bung onto a stock pan.Turbo drain pipe and hose, to the oil pan. engine block fitting, oil line and turbo line fitting. J-pipe, hose for j-pipe to stock turbo. You can use the stock oil pump. Crank pulley and so on.

 

You can use the turbo dist with megasquirt, Add an ignitor and it works fine.

 

If you have megasquirt already just set it up to run spark also, look up some MSQ files that match your engine setup. start tuning from there. engine should run off of someone elses tune. You just adjust that tune to fit your engine demands.  

 

I would recommend turbo injectors, I tried using 315cc injectors and they were not large enough for my Na-t. Once I added 450 injectors problem solved. Depending on which fuel rail you want to use, may help with your injector options also. Stock rail, 11mm o-ring rail. Barbed rail??..

 

I have had an na-t turbo L28 engine for 6 years now, About to go Toyota 2JZ though. )

[s30kid]

My motor is fast already Its a turbo motor with a cam and a port job. It is twice as fast as my old stock motor that I blew.. anyway I am just looking for a little more omph on the top end that being said I am comfortable enough running 5psi daily and maybe 10 if I take it slow to make sure my motor can handle that boost. But of course everyone knows once the turbo bug bites... it bites deep..

 

So this is my plan as of now (might change over the course of time but who knows)

I already have a turbo motor. I just dont have the turbo.

So my shopping list consists of

 

Turbo manifold

stock turbo (or simple T3) with internal wastegate at 5psi

2.5 down pipe and full exhaust

280ZXT dizzy

280ZXT oil pump (if I don't already have one ill have to check)

Cheep front mount intercooler so no J-pipe needed

Intercooler piping

turbo oil line kit

Tap my oil pan for the return line

280zxt injectors (I have seen some 400cc l28 injectors floating around the internet that may be an option as well)

I am going to make a custom fuel rail as well I already have the fittings for it.

Blow off valve because every turbo car should go choo choo (MCM reference)

I have a brand new 280z clutch i can throw in as well

boost gauge

Wideband o2

 

I think I am forgetting something.. I have the list written down somewhere.

 

I am going to post a thread in the for sale/trade section because I have some parts lying around that maybe I can trade or make some money for my turbo build.

 

If anyone has any parts I may need please feel free to pm me.

[gorillaman2012]

For your ignition I'd recommend going to 123ignitionusa.com. You can get a distributor through them that you can program the timing curve and everything. From 5 psi and under as long as your running high octane fuel you won't really have to worry about timing hurting you. If you start hearing any spark knock then retard your stock timing system about a degree and run that. But 6 to 8 psi your going to need something to retard it. You can use msd box with a boost retard and I think it retards off of vacuum pressure but by the time I looked at everything I was going to need through them I liked having the programable distributor that cost the same if not less than the msd setup. Just my $.02

[seattlejester]

^I'm pretty sure those units are pretty expensive, like upwards of 600$.

 

If you have the turbo block, you should already have the turbo pistons, the oil source, the tapped oil pan etc. It really should be a bit of a dog right now if that is the case with the low compression numbers. Are you just going off based off the of the casting code? Now would indeed be a good time to check what you actually have. If you have the flattop NA block then you really won't be able to boost much without something drastic to reduce the cooling charge.

 

If I remember, my turbo manifold had square ports and your N47 head has circle ports I don't quite recall the overlap though. Something to look into.

 

A cam with an NA grind will not be ideal for a turbo just for reference. And if you want top end, a T3 turbo really isn't going to give you much in the high end, it would be more useful for the bottom end/quick spooling it really will run out of puff at the top. 

 

Looks like you have quite a bit more reading ahead of you, definitely take advantage of what you have megasquirt is pretty powerful if you put a few hours into it. And focus down on what you really want. What you state and what you plan kind of clash at times.

 

Need to add a fuel pressure regulator of some sort, fittings, lines.

 

Good luck.

[s30kid]

Thank you all so much for showing some interest and giving me advise instead of dogging me about posting a redundant question.

 

The block is F54. I took a snap on camera probe inside the spark plug hole to check the pistons. They are dished. So. The engine calculator states that I should have 8.2-8.4 compression. Depending on which calculator you use. The n47 is round but if you put a square port exhaust on it fits. You can't go square to round. But you can go round to square.

[s30kid]

Quick question, are thease the correct supra injectors?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-6-NEW-FJ57-FUEL-INJECTORS-TOYOTA-CRESSIDA-SUPRA-1989-1992-3-0L-6Cyl-/111345272477?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1989%7CModel%3ASupra&hash=item19ecb2069d&vxp=mtr

 

Im about to buy thease but want to make sure they are the right ones

[dexter72]

No, those are N/A injectors. those are the 315 High Impedence injectors i mentioned in my earlier response to your post.

 You need 440 Turbo injectors, I have only seen them Black in color. The Turbo Supra injectors are also low impedence injectors. If you want turbo supra injectors, you have to make your fuel rail an 11mm o-ring style rail. Otherwise you need barbed fittings on the fuel rail to use barb style injectors.

 

Remember with Megasquirt you can use Low or High impedence injectors. You choose by which fuel rail you want to use or make, and by which way you want to set megasquirt up. I like High impedence injectors with megasquirt because to change to a larger cc injector, all you do is change the calculated injector setting. Then adjust your Fe table during tuning.

[s30kid]

Just picked up a Garrett AVO turbo. Casting number on the exhaust housing is 449010-1. The compressor wheel is twin scroll. Its oil and water cooled. I also got a msa downpipe. The turbo has a 5 bolt downpipe. So I need to cut and weld the old down pipe flange that came with the turbo to the new downpipe. I am not sure what flange is on the turbo but it doesn't look t3. But I can fab up an adapter plate. Also Tuesday I get paid so I'm going to pick up some 515cc high impedience supra injectors. Now I just need the dizzy, manifold, fmic, oil feed and water feed, boost gauge and wideband.

[dexter72]

Remember to get or make the fuel rail to match the type of injectors your buying.

[s30kid]

Alright some time has past since my last post I though I might make an update and ask some questions.

 

In my possession I now have:

280zx turbo manifold

stock turbo

Oil lines

Mishimoto 3 Inch intercooler

msa 2.5 downpipe

HKS turbo timer

screw type boost controller

280zx wastegate

 

All I need to buy now is  Intercooler piping, wideband, Blow off valve, intake/exhaust gasket, t3 turbo gasket, boost gauge, and a gasket for the downpipe.

I also need to buy a 3/8 npt barb fitting for my return line on the turbo. So I need to drill and tap my pan. 

 

After I get all that I can start tearing the motor apart and putting all the turbo goodies on. 

 

Here is where I have some questions,

 

I have read a few posts about how some people have boosted 280z on the stock 280z ecu with 5 pounds and the car ran fine but anything higher then 5psi was not enough fuel. Now, Im not saying that I want to use my stock ecu but what I was thinking was stock ecu means stock dizzy. And I also read somewhere that someone had stock ignition and megasquirt fuel and he just retarded the timing on the distributor, ran 91 and said he had no detonation at 5-10 psi. But now for the life of me I cant find the post so I was wondering if anyone has any experience doing this and how to set up the stock dizzy for 5psi. Then eventually ill swap over to the zx distributor. But right now Its not possible.  

 

My next question was about intercooler piping. 

my intercooler is 3" inlet/outlet and the stock turbo has I believe a 2" outlet on the compressor, so would it be okay to just run 2" intercooler piping and just use 2" to 3" couplers at the intercooler and throttle body?

[seattlejester]

Once again kind of a strange route you are going. 

 

To answer your question, yes there is some leeway built into the stock ECCM so adding a bit of boost, will not be the end of the world since most older EFI systems tend to run quite a bit on the rich side, so you could get away with low levels of boost. You have megasquirt so that is not really an issue. And yes you could mechanically dial in some retard in the distributor and essentially lock it in place by removing the vacuum source, that's how turbocharged carb'd hoon cars run where the minimal amount is spent and a budget for a boost retard cannot be entertained. You would have a harder time starting and driving off boost though if you did it that way, or you would have more risk once you hit boost, with that style you get one or the other really.

 

Yes you could run whatever pipe size you wanted and adapt to fit the openings, the smallest diameter will be your flow restriction though. Smaller diameter pipes do mean it will take less CFM to pressurize the system, but it also means if you move up to a bigger turbo that can flow more you will slow the turbo down. We are talking big numbers for this to happen though. The 3 inch intercooler may just make it more difficult to route pipes since you would either have to get silicone 90 3 to 2 inch reducers or run a straight reducer and run a 90 2 inch pipe. My intercooler is tiny and it barely made the bends, I can only imagine how much more difficult a 3inch outlet would be to play with.

 

You will want the extra capacity of the turbo oil pump as well, since the NA pumps run really quite low when the engine is not revving.

 

Really really weird to do it the way your a planning though. Wait a little longer and get the parts you need. At this point you are a man with a prada shirt and no shoes. With that low level of boost, you don't actually need an intercooler, and unless you like to drive around like a maniac and shut the car off right after, you don't need a turbo timer (I believe MCM actually covers this), and you really should not be messing with a bleed valve until you have a way to control ignition at the minimum. If you have limited time to take advantage of space or something of that nature, you can just do the hard stuff and mock up or even everything, make sure everything fits, and then just disconnect the intercooler pipe until you get the money for the really necessary parts.