2.8l Chevy Carb Conversion

[pa312d]

Hey has anyone adapted a chevy 2.8l Carb or TBI set up on to a 4 barrel intake for the 78 280z? Any ansers will help. Im sure it will work as long as one cylinder feed the 3 cylinders and the other one does its job.

[Six_Shooter]

2.8, 4.3, 5.0, 5.7, 7.4L all have the same foot print and mounting flanges. There are differences in the throttle linkage, and the IAC valves, and bores. 2.8 is the smallest, 4.3 and 5.0 are the same bore and then the 7.4L is the largest. Injectors were different for each engine size and even some applications. 9C1 (Cop car package) had larger injectors than the 5.7L non 9C1 cars had. Later 7.4L uses smaller injectors but higher fuel pressure than early 7.4 TBIs.

 

Many 2.8L V6 owners swap to the 4.3/5.7 (Same size bore) throttle bodies, and retain the 2.8 injectors. Most people claim an improvement and the intake is not the weak point of those engines, it is the heads that are really restrictive, so take that into consideration.

I was considering something similar with my car, back when it was carb'd, but using the 2.0L/Crossfire throttle bodies since they are single bbl, and would be decent for the SU carb intakes, but decided to just go MPFI instead

I wouldn't use the stock 2.8L carb, they are junk, well, finiky anyway, and everyone who swaps to a different carb as a replacement claims a marked improvement in every aspect. I can believe I had a carb on my 2.8 Jimmy for a while and it wasn't a carb I would want to keep for long. I went injected on that vehicle too.

[Tony D]

GM TBI has been adapted to just about anything. It's a matter of simply making a plate adapter for the TB to mate to the 4 BBL hole on your manifold, and getting the sensors plumbed up and running it.

 

They worked nicely on Corvairs, but a lot of guys liked using the L28EFI as it was a higher HP rating and seemed to work better on the 140horse Vairs. I figure on the 110's and 95's stock would work OK>

[pa312d]

well i wanted to adapt it to a 280z with a carb intake so it sounds resonable alright thanks

 

[Tony D]

Absolutely. They can burn a custom chip and do with it what you want. 

BEAR IN MIND THAT DIY EFI HAS PLUG AND PLAY MEGASQUIRT ECU'S THAT DRIVE THE STOCK GM TBI HARNESS. That gets you fully programmable fuel injection without sending a chip back to be reburnt and arguing with the guy burning the chip about what you want done versus what he thinks you need done!

[Six_Shooter]

Or for less money, you can get your own tuning equipment and use the Delco ECM, that has many more features than the common MS2, including on board diagnostics, VSS based parameters (Which I feel is far more important than the MS community believes), decades of proven reliability and available at any auto wreckers, IF you ever a problem. I've only ever had one ECM fail, and that was due to water getting dripped on it, which is no fault of the ECM.

You can even get equipment that will provide real time tuning with the Delco ECM, for less than most MS systems cost. This is what I use in my own car.

[NewZed]

The Delco ECM option sounds interesting but where do you get the products to tune it and how is the support?  Do you flash the board directly or have to buy a daughter board like Nistune?

[Six_Shooter]

The support is great in the community. I help run a website that is specifically for tuning, and the majority of us there use Delco electronics. www.gearhead-efi.com

 

www.moates.net sells the products, and I use a lot of products from them, Ostrich 2.0 (I have 3, one stays in my car as a "permanent" install), AutoProm, Chip Extender, BURN2, and a few other products.

Software is available at www.tunerpro.net. The software is fully functional as it is downloaded, but has a 10 "nag" window at start up that can be bypassed by sending Mark a $39 donation, that is for registration, that NEVER expires! You can also install the program on as many computers as you want without needing to re-register.

 

I will discuss OBD1 Delco, since I am more familiar with it than the OBD2.

You have several options for actual tuning. You can do it via the chip burning option that is the cheapest option, but takes the longest because any changes need to be made and the programmed to an EEPROM (AKA "chip"), re-installed, tested and repeat.

The option I prefer is "real time tuning", that uses an EPROM emulator that gets plugged into the ECM in place of the EEPROM, and is programmed via a USB cable that is connected to a laptop. Changes can be made while the vehicle is running, and even driving down the road (though it is suggested that someone ELSE is driving while you are making adjustments, if that's how you want to do it).

 

The actual hardware needed to install an EEPROM (or emulator) to your ECM depends on exactly which ECM you use, though there really is only two different adapters, because GM kept same formats for many years. The old TBI ECMs require an adapter that needs to be soldered to the daughter board in those ECMs. Most MPFI ECMs and newer TBI PCMs use a plug in "MEMCAL adapter". On some of the ECMs/PCMs that use MEMCALs I have removed the original EPROM and replaced it with either a socket or an EEPROM to make re-flashing easier.

[NewZed]

Thanks for the links. 

 

It would be great to see a general path laid out to a Delco ECM running an L6, with some links and cost estimates.  Just to make the case that there's another option out there than Megasquirt or one of the high dollar EMS.  I browsed through your links and there's a lot there but they are very computer geek oriented (no offense).  You have to get deep in to chips and EPROM's and communications, etc. to get anywhere.  Megasquirt is making their money by being easy to get directly in to running and tuning with good support.  I'm sure that Matt Cramer is on more boards than just this one, but he is available and has good insight on how to make things work.

 

If you could lay out a plan to get running with a tunable Delco ECU that would be noteworthy.

[Six_Shooter]

That's the thing, you don't need to be into computers to tune a Delco ECM, there are many newbies to Delco tuning that are not computer people and have successfully tuned their vehicles in a matter of days to weeks. The idea of tuning is very much the same regardless of which EMS is being used. The hardware is the only difference, and even most of that has the same needs and functions. If someone can tune an MS, they can tune a Delco.
 

The only "hard" part about using a Delco ECM, is that for different engine applications there can be better "codes" to start with. This is still not an issue, when you realize that your engine combination is similar to what was available in X car, and that code will work in Y ECM. This is where the people that have been doing it for a while can help steer newbies or people that are unsure in the right direction.

 

Since there are so many ways that an L-series could be injected (MPFI, TBI, dual TBI, N/A, forced induction, DIS, dizzy, etc.), it would be difficult to create a "one size fits all" type of how-to, this is where spending a little time researching will help each individual get to where they want to be.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Six_Shooter

[NewZed]

Still sounds interesting.  But you haven't offered anything very specific  The links were helpful.  Can you do some simple math to show that the Delco EMS can be up and running "for less money" as you stated.  You've made a proposal but it needs support.  Just saying.  Our own stuff always seems like the way to go.  Until the math is done.

 

I think that you and one other person are the only ones using the Delco system on an L6.  Seems like it should be more popular.

[Six_Shooter]

*sigh*

 

Assuming complete conversion where there are no existing use-able parts, no existing tuning equipment/softeware and not including fuel system, because that should, again be tailored to the use of the engine:

ECM: $25 to $50 from wreckers/used
Harness: $25 to $75 from wreckers/used

Sensors/supporting electronics: $25 to $300 (Same as MS, or any other EFI FWIW, either go used or go new)
 

Tuning aspect:

Datalogging cable: $10 to $80 (Depends on whether you make your own or buy pre-made, Moates: $80)
EPROM Programmer: $35 to $125 (Moates BURN2 is $80)

EEPROM: $3 to $5

ECM adapter for EEPROM: $30 to $35 from moates, if you're inventive and handy, you can make this part cheaper.

Tuning software: Free or $39 for Tuner Pro RT, there are other more expensive options but they don't seem as expandable or user friendly.

 

If you want to add real time tuning:

Ostrich 2.0: $175

And this is the part where it can get a bit confusing, because there are options, not ALL of the tuning equipment is needed, if you don't care about using an EEPROM at all, the programmer and EEPROMs can be left out, if you don't want real time tuning, the Ostrich can be left out, which is why I really say that the person that wants to do this has to do their own research and there really is no one-size-fits-all guide to this.

There are a lot of similarities between all swaps/conversions, but too many people think they need to follow one guide verbatim and when it's not an exact fit they have a hard time figuring out why their set-up doesn't run as well as it should. This goes for any EMS that is being used, there will be subtleties that need to be figured out before hand.

So the cheapest way: approx $155 (I've actually spent less on a couple conversions)

Add real time tuning: $330

Most expensive: $709
Add real time tuning: $884

There are other variables that will change the cost, like adding DIS, a trigger wheel will need to be made for the DIS system, and the parts which will add to the cost, above I assumed using an existing electronic dizzy to trigger the Delco ICM (Ignition Control Module). If the engine currently has a points dizzy, this will add to the cost, but the same applies for using any other EMS. The above pricing is based on only what would be different from using other EMS

I have never seen anyone spend more than a few hundred to install a Delco EMS in their car though, when they put the system together themselves. There are suppliers that will sell a complete EFI system based on Delco electronics for between $1200 and $2000, but you are paying for all new parts and their time to assemble everything for you.

MS is likely still easier to set-up, solely because it's designed to be "universal", and it's more popular in the conversion crowd, but the Delco is not difficult to setup, just takes a different way of thinking about it. Make the ECM happy with giving it signals it needs/wants and it will give the outputs that you need, which applies to any EMS.

yes, AFAIK there are only two of us using Delco EFI on our L-series, IIRC we are both turbo as well, soon there will be only one, since I am swapping to a different engine, but keeping my EFI system. I helped guide one of the guys in Australia that helped on that conversion. AFAIK, I was the first person to use a full Delco system on an L-series, but I have no real way to confirm that 100%.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Six_Shooter

[NewZed]

*sigh*

 

I feel for you Six_Shooter.  It's so obvious now.  Hard to believe that the brain-washed masses accomplish what little that they do.  Now that you've shown the way, some will be sure to follow.  Cheaper, easier, better - how can they not.

 

Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Tony D]

If it was OBD2 ECU, I'd say stick with something like Tunercat. But the original MS was constructed off the GM Coding with on the fly tuning in mind...so it's a nice simple update to power that old TBI unit. It's nice to run 15 psi....

 

Speaking of that, there are GM TBI adapters for the stock SU Bodies as well. www.pattonmachine.com