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baggedgoods

Timing control problems

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Hey guys. I guess I'll consider this a follow up thread from my last one here(http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/124831-megasquirt-ignition-and-timing-problems/).

 

The car cranks and runs. I don't think my MS is controlling the timing but it's producing the spark at the least. I've gone through the tests to check for my commanded timing and my actual timing with no luck. The timing on the crank is really sporadic at idle and the timing marks disappear and reappear when I increase the RPM. It seems wherever I adjust my dizzy manually, is where it stays at during idle. The stock dizzy on 85T vg's is electronically controlled. Could my stock ECU be interrupting the MS's signal? (I haven't gotten around to going completely standalone YET, but I'm taking this one step at a time). I've got the car running which is a big step, but I've got no timing control, either in "fixed advance" or "use table". I burn and cycle the ecu whenever I'm prompted to. I've hit a wall with this.

 

Hardware

Pin 36 connected to the ?signal wire? on the stock power transistor. (I've tried all the other wires going to the coil, and this one is the only one that seems to work. It's the G/B wire)

Pin 24 is connected to the CAS correctly because I am getting an RPM reading on the dash and in Tuner Studios. (It's also really sporadic)

 

I have the B&G prebuilt MS2 v3.57 with 3.3.0 firmware from DIY

Stock dizzy and ignition coil + power transistor

DIY Nissan Optical trigger wheel

 

Here is a datalog while idling and my current tune. I've got the tooth/composite/trigger logs but they are .csv files so they aren't of much use. I still haven't really figured out how to troubleshoot with the datalogs, maybe one day.

 

Thanks

zx2.zip

CurrentTune.zip

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The stock dizzy on 85T vg's is electronically controlled. Could my stock ECU be interrupting the MS's signal? (I haven't gotten around to going completely standalone YET, but I'm taking this one step at a time). I've got the car running which is a big step, but I've got no timing control, either in "fixed advance" or "use table". I burn and cycle the ecu whenever I'm prompted to. I've hit a wall with this.

 

I'm confused by these two sentences. Are you saying that you have BOTH the stock ECU and the MS2 hooked up in some parallel configuration?  What does this mean? " I haven't gotten around to going complete standalone yet "   

 

It sounds like you are trying to run fueling with MS, and spark with the stock ECU....? If so, that could be your problem. Stock ECU is probably in fail safe mode and has locked the timing at a default value.  Stock ECU shouldn't even be in the car at this point. It should be sitting on a work bench.

 

Have a look at the electrical flow chart on this .PDF. Lookat page EF & EC-6. Note the Input for the Crank Angle sensor.  Then note the output from the ECU to the Power Transistor. If you've cut or spliced into that wire to connect to your MS 2, then the factory ECU may still be controlling Dwell.

 

You could keep the Factory ECU if it still controls things like Air/Con control, Digital Dash Gauges etc... but you have to totally separate it's control over both Fuel and Spark to use standalone effectively.

 

You should not be using the factory Power Transistor. Take that out of the circuit and put it on the work bench.  Connect the Dizzy directly to the Mega squirt and use the built in  coil drivers of the MS2 to drive the coil. That is the only way that the MS will have complete control over Ignition Timing and coil dwell.  

Edited by Chickenman

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The car cranks and runs. I don't think my MS is controlling the timing but it's producing the spark at the least. I've gone through the tests to check for my commanded timing and my actual timing with no luck. The timing on the crank is really sporadic at idle and the timing marks disappear and reappear when I increase the RPM. It seems wherever I adjust my dizzy manually, is where it stays at during idle. 

 

MS must be doing something, if you're actually seeing a timing mark and it moves with RPM.  Like CM implies, the distributor (actually the CAS) doesn't control anything.  You could set your timing tables all to the same number,no change, and see if the mark stays steady with RPM.  

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My stock ecu is basically piggybacked with my MS. I sort of had an epiphany this morning about how my stock ecu may be conflicting with my megasquirt for ignition because I have only one wire from my ignition to my MS and the rest are to the stock ecu. I have 3 out of 4 wires from the distributor going to my megasquirt, and the one (360*) not hooked up.

 

I will be making ms completely stand alone once I've gotten everything sorted out with my stock wiring. Like I said, taking one thing at a time, there's no rush.

 

Have you taken a look at my logs? Maybe unraveled what I've got going on with it?

Edited by baggedgoods

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The 4 wire connector from the Dizzy, which is your CAS  connected Directly to your Mega Squirt 2 ONLY. I'm thinking not. If the stock ECU is connected in any way to the circuit, it is probably confused as hell, because you are using the DIY trigger wheel.

 

DIY just revised their Z31 trigger wheel instructions on Jan,31,2017. Included are complete setup guides and instructions for using the DIY Trigger wheel. Have a good read at the following link. Make sure all your Ms is configured correctly.  

 

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/hardware/nissan-trigger-disc/

 

 

 

Using the MS-II V3.0 or V3.57 ECU with MS2/Extra

  • Make sure it is set for Hall / optical input (TachSelect to OptoIn, TSEL to OptoOut).
  • Cut out C12 and C30.  (Only needed when triggering from the – terminal of the coil, which you are not)
  • Remove D1 and jumper it, or just install a jumper wire across it’s leads.  (Only needed when triggering from the – terminal of the coil, which you are not)
  • Cut out R57 if fitted (this won’t be there on my units though).
  • Connect S12 to TachSelect using a 1K resistor. (Or you can use a 1K pull up in the wiring, between pin 24 and a 12V source.)
  • If you want sequential coil on plug (or sequential injection with the 3.2.1 code), you’ll also need a second trigger input. Solder a 1K resistor onto a length of wire, and cover the resistor with heat shrink tubing. Connect this resistor-on-a-wire combination from JS10 to SPR1.
  • Solder a 470 ohm resistor onto a length of wire and cover with heat shrink tubing. Run this resistor-on-a-wire from the 5 volt terminal in the proto area to SPR1.
  • Connect a 0.1 uF capacitor from JS10 to SG or the proto area ground.
  • Install the spark output of your choice. BIP373 or QuadSpark output mods are two possible choices. OEM Nissan SR20DET ignition modules require 5 volt logic level ignition outputs.

Hardware mods – V3.57

  • For a V3.57, you’d have to remove a lot of parts to use the Hall / optical input, so we’ll just bring this in through the VR conditioner instead.
  • Place the JP1 jumper in the 1-2 position.
  • Place the J1 jumper in the 5-6 position.
  • Put a 1K resistor in the R57 slot (Or you can use a 1K pull up in the wiring, as above.).
  • If you want sequential coil on plug (or sequential injection with the 3.2.1 code), you’ll also need a second trigger input. Solder a 1K resistor onto a length of wire, and cover the resistor with heat shrink tubing. Connect this resistor-on-a-wire combination from JS10 to SPR1. You could also use PAD7 if you’d rather bring the input in through the DB15.
  • Solder a 470 ohm resistor onto a length of wire and cover with heat shrink tubing. Run this resistor-on-a-wire from the 5 volt terminal in the proto area to SPR1 (or PAD7 if you used this in the preceeding step.).
  • Connect a 0.1 uF capacitor from JS10 to SG or the proto area ground.
  • Install the spark output of your choice. BIP373 or QuadSpark output mods are two possible choices. OEM Nissan SR20DET ignition modules require 5 volt logic level ignition outputs.

TunerStudio settings (Batch fire / wated spark or single coil)

  • Settings under Basic Setup -> Tach Input / Ignition Settings:
    • Spark mode: Toothed Wheel
    • Ignition input capture: Falling Edge
    • Spark output will depend on what output setup you’re using. BIP373s and QuadSparks both use Going High / Inverted.Getting this setting wrong can damage the ignition module and/or coils. If the ignition module or coils get hot with the key on and the engine off, turn the key off immediately and select the opposite output setting.
  • Settings under Basic Setup -> Trigger Wheel Settings:
    • Trigger wheel arrangement: Single wheel with missing tooth
    • Trigger wheel teeth: 12
    • Missing Teeth: 1
    • Tooth #1 angle: 345 (This varies slightly between individual engines. Check with a timing light and adjust as needed.)
    • Wheel speed: Crank wheel

TunerStudio settings (Sequential coil on plug and / or sequential fuel)

  • Settings under Basic Setup -> Tach Input / Ignition Settings:
    • Spark mode: Toothed Wheel
    • Ignition input capture: Falling Edge
    • Spark output will depend on what output setup you’re using. BIP373s and QuadSparks both use Going High / Inverted.Getting this setting wrong can damage the ignition module and/or coils. If the ignition module or coils get hot with the key on and the engine off, turn the key off immediately and select the opposite output setting.
  • Settings under Basic Setup -> Tach Input / Ignition Settings:
    • Trigger wheel arrangement: Dual wheel with missing tooth
    • Trigger wheel teeth: 12
    • Missing Teeth: 1
    • Tooth #1 angle: 345 (This varies slightly between individual engines. Check with a timing light and adjust as needed.)
    • Wheel speed: Crank wheel
    • Second trigger active on: Rising edge
    •  

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My stock ecu is basically piggybacked with my MS. I sort of had an epiphany this morning about how my stock ecu may be conflicting with my megasquirt for ignition because I have only one wire from my ignition to my MS and the rest are to the stock ecu. I have 3 out of 4 wires from the distributor going to my megasquirt, and the one (360*) not hooked up.

 

I will be making ms completely stand alone once I've gotten everything sorted out with my stock wiring. Like I said, taking one thing at a time, there's no rush.

 

Have you taken a look at my logs? Maybe unraveled what I've got going on with it?

 

 

As Mythbusters would say. " Well there's your probelm!! "  You cannot do it that way. Period. Hook your MS up correctly so it is controlling both your Fuel and Ignition. Right now your Stock ECU is still controlling the Ignition... although very poorly and in fail safe mode because of the wya you've hooked things up. 

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MS must be doing something, if you're actually seeing a timing mark and it moves with RPM. Like CM implies, the distributor (actually the CAS) doesn't control anything. You could set your timing tables all to the same number,no change, and see if the mark stays steady with RPM.

See, now that's the thing. The timing doesn't seem to want to stay where my MS is telling it. Even when I have my advance set to "fixed advance". I've toggled between fixed advance and use table, but it doesn't seem to do anything different. I believe that if you have the advance using fixed advance at #*, revving the engine will not change the timing at all, because it's set to a fixed angle. But it doesn't stay fixed, it seems to jump and sometimes seems to be firing in between the 1st and 2nd cylinders.

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As Mythbusters would say. " Well there's your probelm!! " You cannot do it that way. Period. Hook your MS up correctly so it is controlling both your Fuel and Ignition. Right now your Stock ECU is still controlling the Ignition... although very poorly and in fail safe mode because of the wya you've hooked things up.

After work I'll be disconnecting all fuel and ignition inputs/outputs from my stock ecu.

 

With your post above, I was hoping I wouldn't have to make mods to the board whatsoever. But it seems I may have to. Which mods am i going to have to make for sure?

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Baggedgoods. Going back to the original Post in September 2016, you stated that you only had 1 wire from the CAS unit hooked up to your MS. The other 3 wires still went to the Nissan ECU. Are you telling us that it STILL hooked up that way?

 

That thread ended with a pretty clear explanation that you had to have all FOUR wires of the CAS hooked up to the MS 2 and let it handle all timing. Factory ECU and Power Transister should be out of the equation COMPLETELY. 

 

OP was typing his reply as I typed this. All cleared up now. I think baggedgoods is on the right trcak now.

Edited by Chickenman

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After work I'll be disconnecting all fuel and ignition inputs/outputs from my stock ecu.

 

With your post above, I was hoping I wouldn't have to make mods to the board whatsoever. But it seems I may have to. Which mods am i going to have to make for sure?

 

 Take the Factory ECU out of the equation first. You can't have it piggy backed with the MS. You may not have to do anything at all to the MS. It's likley configured properly already. Doesn't hurt to check though. 

 

We may be typing at the same time.... You replied to my last question while I was still typing it.

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Baggedgoods. Going back to the original Post in September 2016, you stated that you only had 1 wire from the CAS unit hooked up to your MS. The other 3 wires still went to the Nissan ECU. Are you telling us that it STILL hooked up that way?

 

That thread ended with a pretty clear explanation that you had to have all FOUR wires of the CAS hooked up to the MS 2 and let it handle all timing. Factory ECU and Power Transister should be out of the equation COMPLETELY.

Bit of a miscommunication. 3 of the 4 wires are connected to my MS. The pullup resistor is in place and the only wire not connected to anything is the 360* wire. I don't have a HOME pin, but I don't plan on doing sequential injection or wasted spark as of right now.

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See, now that's the thing. The timing doesn't seem to want to stay where my MS is telling it. Even when I have my advance set to "fixed advance". I've toggled between fixed advance and use table, but it doesn't seem to do anything different. I believe that if you have the advance using fixed advance at #*, revving the engine will not change the timing at all, because it's set to a fixed angle. But it doesn't stay fixed, it seems to jump and sometimes seems to be firing in between the 1st and 2nd cylinders.

CM's right, MS isn't designed as a piggyback system.  How did you even decide to try that?  You're inputs and outputs are all whacked out, who knows what's controlling what.

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Take the Factory ECU out of the equation first. You can't have it piggy backed with the MS. You may not have to do anything at all to the MS. It's likley configured properly already. Doesn't hurt to check though.

 

We may be typing at the same time.... You replied to my last question while I was still typing it.

Haha, let's just say I'm glued to my phone right now. Trying to get as much information as i can. Can't take enough shit breaks in a day though lol

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CM's right, MS isn't designed as a piggyback system. How did you even decide to try that? You're inputs and outputs are all whacked out, who knows what's controlling what.

First MS install plus the stock ecu has like 30 more wires than my ms so I planned to take it slow as for getting rid of it.

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First MS install plus the stock ecu has like 30 more wires than my ms so I planned to take it slow as for getting rid of it.

 

Sounds interesting but you're probably squaring your problems, not doubling them.  Good luck.  Probably going to be slow for sure.

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