Guest livewire23 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 mike, i know about what happened in the past, I wanted to know what happened in the last 12 years. (since the last gulf war) I dont understand why we didnt take him out the first time, waited 12 years, in which time, comparitively he has been much more meek than the 10 years prior, and then suddenly decide he needs to be taken down. What gives? I understand that for 8 years clinton wouldnt take him down for fear of his public image, but why not take him down the first time round? In the past 10 years, has he brutalized or harmed anyone outside iraq, or even seriously threatened to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I have read these post with mixed emotions. But i find i must support President Bush and the war in Iraq. I heard someone say the other day,would you rather fight terror with the best trained and best equipped army in the world in Iraq, or fight it here in our country with Firefighters, Police, and E.M.S. As a professional firefighter i say 343 dead NY firefighters are enough. Do what it takes and bring the troops home. Get us out of the U.N. now. Thanks just letting off steam. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Livewire, Yes he has. In the last 5 years there have been traces of attacks on his own people with Chem/ Bio, and on the border with Iran. He also has had countless "sympathizers" murdered within his iwn country. The man has still managed to keep his people in the grips of fear, primarely due to the fact that he has a captive audience. On a related not I heard a woman as the gas station 15 minutes ago bitching about how long it has taken... We've been there going on DAY 8! We are NOT going about it this time the way we did last time. You know Why??? We do NOT want to kill any more civilians than is absolutely necessary. We won't be doing the blanket bombing this time that we did through much of Iraq in the first war. No, we are trying to be more selective and precise. That care for the Iraqie people has put more of our soldiers in harms way. As to the comment about Bush Senior... Plain and simple. He caved under pressure from the religious right, and allowed Gengrich to steer him down the wrong path to re-election. He screwed the pooch and considered it his biggest failure. He should have stayed the course, finished the objective and we wouldn't be here now, and he would likely have been re-elected had he remained a little more moderate. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest livewire23 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 hehe, "what's taking so long?" sheesh. people nowadays. they think that we just go into wars on a monthly basis, and its a little 3 day affair. I might be a bit slower to go to war, but once I'm set on bein there, I don't expect to end it overnight. If we're gonna fight a war, we'd better do it right. The way the war is being handled is definately something that I have no complaints about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I was not throwing around accusations about who the U.S. has put in power or who they are currently supporting. These are facts that I believe you can find on our country's national defense website. Sometime during the 70s our government helped to put Saddam in power. He's an evil man that tortures and oppresses his people. The government has known that for years and it became even more apparent after he unleashed bio/chem weapons on his people (some of which we gave him during the Iran/Iraq conflict during the 80s). My biggest question about all of this is "Why now?" Why is it so important now? The government has known that he's been an evil man for years, but why now? I fully agree that he should have been removed long ago, or never even have been put in power. Maybe Bush and his cabinet know something we don't. Some piece of intelligence showing that Saddam is planning something. It is our job as American's to ask why though. The minute you start to believe completely in your leaders is the minute you get burned. That was the sort of thing that happened in Germany and Russia years ago. Anyways, I just have a hard time believing that we are over their to remove Saddam, because he's a bad guy. If that was true, he should have been gone long ago (Then again, administrations change throughout the years. Maybe this is a start of a much better humanitarian foreign policy). This seems more like rhetoric than anything else. If, as a country, our policy was to remove oppressive regimes and install democracy, than why isn't there a plan to deal with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and many countries in Latin America? Maybe I'm wrong and those are next. Just to remind everyone who thinks I hate this country, that thought is far from the truth. This is one of the best places in the world. There aren't too many other countries where I could be typing this. I believe that if you truly have an interest in your country's actions, than you will pay attention and speak up when something doesn't seem right to you. I think the founding fathers of this nation designed it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bang847 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Moridin, I think you already know all the answers to your own questions. Why now? Why not? Why not yesterday? If it was an issue of intelligence then why do you need to know? Is it safe for you to know? Is it safe for Saddam to know? Why dont we remove other non-democratic regims? because they dont display the degree of malicious intent that Saddam does. I think the overall thing we should do is focus on the present. Support the President. Support the troops. It is useless dwelling on the past. Can can WE do NOW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Why dont we remove other non-democratic regims? because they dont display the degree of malicious intent that Saddam does. That is highly untrue. The Saudis support the Wahabbi extremists which sent 15 of there men flying into the towers on 9/11. Yet why do we still send them aid? Why haven't we removed them from power? There are many others who equal or even worse in their actions than Saddam. When the president says we are removing Saddam, because he's an evil man, I wonder why others haven't been removed. If this is a foreign policy that we are going to follow, it better be pushed all the way throughout the nation. Then again, that's like pointing a gun at someone and telling them to be a democracy. A little hypocritical, isn't it? We need to support our troops. They are already in the thick of it and need all the help they can get. Don't get me started on our president though. I didn't vote for him, so I offer very little support to him through this endeavor. The election was a joke too, but that is beside the point at the moment. I do not buy the reasons given for "why now?" They don't fit with the actions taken by our government or the policies that were and have been implemented. There is a difference between actions and rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Pointing a gun at someone and telling them to be a democracy??? Uh, I hope you are being a little dramatic with your example.... In Haiti the war lord used to hang tires over the heads of people who spoke out against him. He would then set them afire... We rescued those who weren't already charred. In Panama we finally righted a wrong that was created by us. In Grenada, same thing. In Bosnia We created peace where there was mass murder. In Kuwait we liberated a country, freed them from the terrors of a horrible man. I don't know what answer you will accept Moridin. Maybe there isn't one. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ProfessorRog Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 It is useless dwelling on the past. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. The sad thing about this division of supporters and protestors is the self-righteousness this in-fighting breeds. The supporters who believe that the only ramification of this war is the liberation of Iraq and the protestors who believe that this action is simple warmongering are in equal confusion. It is too bad that in order to gain support for their individual causes they believe they must show themselves as totally righteous in their actions. It would be wiser instead to simply acknowledge all possible outcomes of this war and how people will be benefitted and disadvantaged. Yes we will have access to a more stable environment in the middle east that will be more likely to regulate oil production without fear of loss of our fuel. Both soldiers on our side and civilians on their side will die. We will be able to test our weapons in a real-time war environment. We will have cleansed ourselves of yet another one of our fears, namely Saddam supporting terrorism. We will monetarily pay for this war over the next number of years. We will alienate borderline islamic extremists building anti-american sentiment. The Iraqi people will be in a much better position without Saddam, less murders, tortures, and crimes against humanity. The UN's authority will have been undermined yet again (seems like a regular occurence these days.) I think fewer Iraqis will die at our hand than at Saddam's hand which raises the question whether we believe our servicemen's lives of greater importance than all the benefits of this war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strotter Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I've been monitoring this thread (with a bit of dread, to tell you the truth), and even contributing a bit, and I have to tell you, this group is the only one that I read has managed to keep the conversation pretty civil; in a number of other places that I monitor, there are threads about the war, and almost all of them have either degenerated into "Screw you!", "No, Screw YOU!", or been cancelled by the moderator. This is really unusual, and pretty impressive. Perhaps people that are open minded about politics and the opinions of others might also be the kind of guys that be open minded about all kinds of things - like putting weirdly powerful motors into cute little sports cars... hmm. Well done, guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest livewire23 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 y'know this debate has answered many a question that I was wondering about. It has proved most informative.It has also forced me to ask even more questions. Honestly, I believe that nothing but time will tell, and since I'm not a part of the government, and I have no voting power, I am content to sit back and allow time to tell the story. In some ways i'm fortunate to be in such a position. But there is one realization that I've come to thanks to this discussion. The beauty of this system of government is, regardless of what is going on now, there's always the next administration. I mean, I'm sure many people were unhappy we didnt take out iraq 8 years ago. But now its being done. I dont really know how to put my epiphany into words, its more complex than that, but it has definately improved my image of the united states. I guess it could be called the changing climates of the US. Perhaps Im just a little tired right now. I know im not making any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ProfessorRog Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I agree Strotter, I think we seem to have a strangely disproportionate number of people posting on this board who actually realize that a disagreement over politics/thought processes is not a personal attack and does not require an epithet in return to the disagreeing party. And people think mechanics are uncivilized. tsk tsk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I play a little bit of devil's advocate in all this. I tend to overplay my side of things to see if I can make the other side think a little more (Not sure if there really are sides). Usually I get the "screw you" attitude, but here it is very different. I commend that. I do agree that the outcome of all this could be very good. The Iraqi people could be liberated and oil prices may come down. (I'm a little split on oil prices though. Part of me wishes they would come way down for the Z. The other part of me wants them to skyrocket so automotive companies are forced to create more fuel efficient and cleaner running vehicles. Toyota is coming out with the RX330. Keep your eye on that one.) I do hope for the best in Iraq, but I fear the worst. This may have opened up a whole can of worms that we haven't even seen the start of yet. We have helped many areas of the world, but it seems like we only hold true when it suits those in power. As my IR instructor put it, "This isn't a war of the people of Iraq and the people of the U.S. This a war between two elite with a lot to gain and little to lose." Of course this isn't exactly true. Saddam could lose his life (don't think we are going to find him), but Bush is definitely not going to lose his. If it were up to the people of Iraq and the people of the U.S. I think we wouldn't have a problem. An Iraqi auto mechanic probably has no beef with an American auto mechanic. Sorry to get a little abstract, but it made a little sense of the situation. I do agree that Saddam must be removed, and if now is the time, now is the time. I do not want to see U.S. foreign policy stop at this. We must cut ties to all those regimes that oppress their people and support terrorism. I don't like hypocracy one bit. If this a foreign policy that the people want than it must be something that is stuck with for the years to come. Problem is, I see these things about Iraqi liberation and such as only rhetoric. I think there are hidden reasons that we won't see for years to come. Maybe for decades, because Bush just had some classified information acts. Those acts supposedly push the release date of that classified info back years and years. Now why would you wanna do a thing like that? I'm just like anyone else though. I'm looking for answers. I want the best for the United States. I don't think is in our best interest for national security, although it may have a beneficial impact on the humanitarian effort in Iraq. Hopefully we get the truth (I'm a little skeptical about the U.S. media at the moment. You never know what the owners of these media conglomerates interests are. You will never hear anything about GE pollution the Mississippi on NBC, because they own it.) and can help make educated decisions when we go to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bang847 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 It is useless dwelling on the past. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. Dwelling on things and forgeting things are very different. If you see my previous post I emphasize that learning from mistakes is important. I thinking dwelling on things can be a mistake in itself. Example: How would you like it if you constantly hear about civil unjustices of the past? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 You guys get an A+. Most people can't talk politics and in the past we have had to lock one or two religious/ political topics.... But it is rare that we have to. That is why this site is simply the best on the web. Mature people, Open minds, No limits! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ProfessorRog Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I concede that "dwelling" and "remembering" have different connotations and perhaps in order to ensure that the repitition of history is not committed we only need to periodically remember past actions and consequences rather than dwell on them. "Dwelling" seems to have a more negative connotation that communicates non-productive idleness. Obviously not all of us can dwell on history as that would send us into an economic tailspin but I believe that there must be some among us who study history in depth and can recognize when certain events have happened before and warn us of impending disaster. Those people must have a clear unbiased view of history otherwise they will be doing our society no favors. The majority of us must also have a general knowledge of history so that we don't make a completely uninformed decision regarding whatever calamity is presently involved. I think the best answer to someone who asks, "why do we have to learn about a bunch of old dead white guys?" is "So you don't make the same mistakes they did." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest livewire23 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I think the best answer to someone who asks' date=' "why do we have to learn about a bunch of old dead white guys?"[/quote'] So that you'll realize if the living old white guys are making the same old mistakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 You guys get an A+. Most people can't talk politics and in the past we have had to lock one or two religious/ political topics.... But it is rare that we have to. That is why this site is simply the best on the web. Mature people' date=' Open minds, No limits! Mike[/quote'] Not only that, both positions have presented good arguments, based on factual information and not heresay or dare I say "emotion". Kudos to all of you for doing so. This is by far the most intelligent and civilized thread about the current war and US position I have read ANYWHERE; and that's saying quite a bit. To be honest the openness in which the Z car community seems to carry itself continues to amaze me. One of the main attractions about the Z car, aside from the car itself was the community around it. Every Z owner I have met has been quite open about differences between people, in fact most embrace them. I've met everyone from truck drivers to to machinists to doctors, engineers (<-ME), Real Estate brokers to waiters to you name it. Funny thing is, you wouldn't be able to tell as there was no snobbery or evidence of this "better than thou" type attitude. We are all willing to learn from the next guy and share our experiences and our passions with no attitude. Maybe it stems from the fact that the Z car is so accommodating to different tastes, whether it's nostalgic, hybrid conversions or even Ferrari replicas...Whatever it is, this thread is just further proof of that tolerance that this community embraces. I know return you to our original programming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ProfessorRog Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Touche Livewire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest livewire23 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 My mom just told me that lately she "worries about my values." So much for people in my house having an open mind. The sad thing is that I agree with her to a degree on most things, I just like to point out the other side of things occasionally, even if I don't agree with it. She talks like I'm the antichrist. I guess its about time I get a little space... I agree (yet again) with what strotter and some of the others said. This community has demonstrated itself to be more open than many of the rest of the people I know. People here have been very good about having facts to back their position, whereas a lot of other people I know like to just apply blanket statements about the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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