12 inch Wilwood brake- hats and caliper mounts now ready

[Bob_H]

Sentence was removed refering to you.

At no time did I not applaud him for bringing this to market. At no time did I say he was stupid for taking a risk and bring this kit to market. Never. This is a discussion forum. As such, we all should entertain discussion. By its nature, not everyone will agree. Why does everyone automatically assume that means I don't support him or applaud him introducing more to the Z car community? I even said as much in more than one of my posts.

Should we all then bow down to everyone who brings a Z product to market? In some respect, yes. Yes because they are taking a chance on an unknown marketplace and a financial gamble in that respect. Yes because it makes our cars better in the long run. Yes because it promotes options for all of us. You are included in this with your suspension offerings,(although not any longer with the sale to Ross).

In other respects, no. No because sometimes there are better ways to make something. No because sometimes things are not well thought out and can be better. No because it keeps us honest and sometimes safe.

Honestly, why does this need to become a me vs Juan or anyone else. This should be about the product and how we can help Juan make it better, if required.... I don't have the resources or time to engineer products for our Z, so I am thrilled that there are those out there that will. However, if I can help make their product a better one, why not? I'm sure it will work, even if it has deficiences,(if it even has any). However, if we can suggest or come to a better product/solution in the end which requires very little if any extra money from the developers, why not incorperate it? At no time have I said absolutely it is inadequate. What I have repeatedly said is I personally don't see that it is adequate. I was looking for some equations, CAD analysis, etc.. to show where I was wrong. All I recieved in response was "It will be fine" with nothing to support that statement. Thure did provide some math,(thank you for that) but he was assuming only tension, which unfortuantly is not accurate. I myself didn't know that as evidence by my second or third post. But how could we model it? That is anyones guess.

I aplogize for the direct comments to Mike.

-Bob

[Guest Thurem]

I would like to again point out that my analysis showed that a 3/8" sliver of bracket would be adequate to hold the tension, the actual bracket will be much larger (minimum of twice as large at the ends of the bracket).

The twisting force of 3250# (see previous post) in the middle of the brakepads on a 1.34" distance (to the middle of said bracket) comes to a twisting force of about 363 ftpounds. This may sound like a lot but it is distributed between mounting point approximately 3.5" apart. So you get about 1244# of sideload trying to bend the 1/4" bracket at a maximum distance of 1.75" . Please look to some leafsprings on a truck for a comparison of the amount deflection that takes place over a distance 1.75" of the leafspring. This example does not take into account that this twisting motion would be countered by the length of the brakepad.

With the formula for leaf spring rate found in Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams I got a maximum deflection of about 0.006" or 0.15mm which is nowhere near the 2.5 mm padtaper bob was talking about, in his quote from the ford guy.

Maybe I should have wasted 5 years of my life to become an engineer.

 

Thure

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Okay here is what I can do. I will have 18 sets/pairs with the .25 inch bracket machined. There is no turning back because the material has been ordered ,is on hand ,and my machinist has begun to take prototype into full production. I do plan on making thicker bracket. It will change the hat size going from 14.35mm thick to 8mm roughly. Do not quote me on this cause I'm not at my Z measuring this out. Just brain storming. Should be done going into this mid-week.

I know I do not bring much for argument. I'm looking for help and will provide what you fella Zer's feel is best. Should anything like this arise I do have a webpage that accepts comments,ideas,and help towards a producing/ed part. Again I say many time I reward for time and effort. You do not want to know how much time is involved making the simplest things.

Right now I'm working with Adam from Z1 to get some big brakes out for ZX's.He wants to put some AP brakes on his Z and I will be able to provide that as well. O ring fuel rail coming also . Seems I like to make one part at a time.

You can clearly see that I have access to a great working team and do my best to provide everyone with affordable parts at my expense. I pretty much have no life and have turn my knowledge about 70-83's Z into another hobby. There so much to say. I will leave it at my little webpage. Thanks again and lets all be friends and work together. Juan

[Guest ON3GO]

well my word prob has no say in this at all, i mean what do i know. im just some 19 year old kid trying to build the best Z hybrid i can. Now i dont know Bob, but i will say he has always been nice and very helpful to me. He also knows what he is talking about. I wont say he is wrong or he is right as like i said im just some kid. But i will say that if those of you that know more then juan, and others who provide us with these parts knowing full well that they arent going to make big bucks, i think you guys should try to provide a helping hand, and try to make something EVEN better. Its really dumb to just yell and say this is how it is, and blah blah blah. I under stand most of you want numbers and specs and such. But maybe if you guys try to help each other out you can get those numbers together. i for one trust juans and others words about hus products and i believe his products are safe. and i have been doing my research on this type of topic, calling engineers, race car builders and such. know i always try to help juan out, not by telling him how to make parts and giving him designs, but just trying to do any little bit to help us Z guys and the people who try to help us out. now you can say what you will about me and this post, i dont care, hell i never even met up with any of you on here, but i do have respect for everybody one here.

So ill be more then happy to take the 1st set of brackets...

thanks

[Guest Thurem]

Juan

The amount of thickness you add to the "bracket" (when you say that you need to add a lot of echo and kind of like sound like a spacemovie) you need to add to the hat as well, to keep the caliper centered on the rotor.

So if you make the bracket 8mm thick the hat needs to be 16mm thick.

With the .25" 6.35mm bracket you only have 3.85mm of space between the rotor and the stock caliper mounting ears, so that limits how far you can go. There is also not a whole lot of room between the rotor and the control arm, so you wanna check that as well. If you wanted to make all the brackets 8mm thick you could add a 1.65mm 0.065" spacer, to put between the hub and the hat, to the kit. I have no idea how much that would cost you though.

 

ON3GO, Dude you are for real.

 

Thure

[Bob_H]

Thure, there are two ways he can approach making a thicker bracket. One would be what you mentioned,(which involves two changes - one to the bracket and one to the hub adapter, but makes a simpler bracket). The other is to mill an offset bracket. For that solution, the bracket would be thicker overall, but would keep the caliper relation to the rotor the same. The resistance to bending and twisting would increase even though there would be areas only .25 inch thick. It would also mean a more complex part to machine.

edit, I'm an internet retard. I missed Juan's post where it said he was going to change the thickness of the adapter. Oops. BTW Juan, do you have a different thickness adapter for the 240 style hub vs the 280 style hub? Or do you specify a certain year? I didn't see that on your website, and may have missed it. Arizona Z does specify a certain year as a reference. And just one note Thure, leaf springs are Spring steel, where the brackets will be mild steel. I don't know the difference in strenght, but I would gather spring steel is much stiffer as I know it is much harder to cut and drill.

Juan, if you can provide a CAD type diagram of the part, or even just a drawing with the dimensions, I'll see what I can do to give you a design to consider for an offset bracket or possibly an analysis. Something else to consider in the next batch is where the holes are. You can position the caliper anywhere on the rotor,(within reason) That means you can move the caliper around to change the relationship between the holes to make a stronger bracket. Something to consider. We might be able to talk Dan into doing an analysis if I promise him another 10 hp from his current 255rwhp.... Actually, I know Dan is looking for an aftermarket brake setup...

-Bob

[Guest Thurem]

Bob

 

I did an analysis on mild steel, just to illustrate that even that would be strong enough. I'm sure Juan is gonna one up me on the quality of the components we are gonna receive.

Thure

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Hey guys I wrote a large summary on how I was going to accommodate the thicker bracket but my session ran out and lost my info attending to normal life outside of here.

Well to make everyone eased a bit all I have to do is make the rotor hat 6mm thicker to add the .5 inch bracket thickness I would like. Seems like a lot but this gives me more work to be creative with design in the future.

Bob the offset bracket is out of the questions. It would be too complex machining which would raise the labor cost. You can get a sneak peek as to what it would look like. again this was a quick sketch I did last night at about 2 in the morning only showing a small view.

http://www.jskinnovations.com/caliperoffsetbracket.htm

Again I have this under control and is not a difficult task. I expect to come across some bumps along the way and will listen to what anyone has to say.

Thure I know I did say make the hat thinner. I ment thicker on the earlier post.Im sure there is plenty of clearance being under the Z to visualize just about everything. Going to be under it again today to test out some final figures. Aright I'll be bock/back Juan

[Mikelly]

This will be my final post on this thread unless things get out of hand again...

 

Depending on the materials used, 1/4 inch thick steel used in this application should be more than enough to hold a caliper of choice in as large as a 13 inch rotor application... How did I come up with this??? Again, I went out last night and did a little research. My rear caliper brackets from Jim Cook Racing are aluminum and less than 1/2 inch thick. My Mustang COBRA brake package uses a 13 inch rotor and PBR caliper. The mount ears?? They are just under 3/8th thickness, Almost at 5/16th. Coleman Machine, Stock Car Products, S&W, Port City Racing, Poskie Racing all sell mount brackets and adapters for Outlaw and Wilwood brakes. All of the units I found in those catalogs showed thickness of about 1/4 inch. I don't believe these are mild steel, but could be wrong. I'll be finding out soon enough since I'll be welding some onto my rear housings for the rear disc conversion on the race car.

 

Now, I know some of you have commented about the bracket you see in the web pics... Here is where I feel VERY Confident in making MY Statements (Since one of you challenged it in your previous comment..). I HAVE THE PARTS in hand, and I know WHERE the bolt holes should be based on Mike Gibson's design, The outlaw Calipers I own, The TWO KINDS of Wilwood calipers I own, and the JCR brackets. And as far as the comments about a 2500# late model Mustang... I'd have to see it with my eyes. The car is a pig. One of the largest complaints Steve Saleen had about the current generation car was its gurth. Hard to make a race car out of a vehicle with such mass... Lets stick to comparing parts ONLY on the Zcar since this is what we are applying THIS part to. Makes sense to me. Back to the brackets. I'd be MUCH more concerned over the type of hardware used in the application (Bolts) than a 1/4 inch piece of (EVEN MILD) Steel based on the way the steel plate will be used. You are talking about a piece of steel approximately 3 inches wide by 7 inches long with four holes (Two of them tapped with threads), Offset from each other the appropriate amount of distance (Figured athematically of course) to allow the mounting surface of the strut housing and then accomodating the caliper base. I'm pulling these rough estimate figures from last nights memory and the 5 lug setup I bought from Mike Gibson, so I may be slightly off in the dimension, but again I will Say with a great deal of certainty that it WILL WORK and stand by the simple statement that this same (Very SIMPLE) braket is used EVERYWHERE in racing where larger aftermarket calipers and rotors are adapted. This is NOT rocket science guys, and some of you engineers (Richard I respect your input and opinion GREATLY) are making this much harder than it is. The load should be spread out among the material from all four bolt mounting points to sufficiantly even the distribution when the torque arm (Rotor) applies its leverage load against the caliper, transfering the load through the adapter and to the bolts. Since we aren't applying the load directly, but from the sides, the loading doesn't carry the same fatigue or leverage rates. I'd be much more concerned about someone running down to their local LOWES and picking up some low grade bolts because they were in a huirry to throw on their new bling bling brakes to show their buddies.

 

I'm not a mechanical engineer. but I have worked with many of them, and I called TWO of them over the course of the last two days and gave them this data and this link. BOTH came to the same conclusion (Which means nothing since I rarely get two engineers to agree on anything) that this piece of steel, even in mild grade, and at 1/4inch thickness would not be the issue. However, both recommended atleast a hardened steel type, and Neither liked the use of aluminum, period. When the issue of heat came up (Serious concern for me personally since I've seen heat transfer from brake rotors catch brake ducting on fire!) both recommended further analysis to figure out what types of material would best be suited in that particular application. So I'm left to draw the conclusion (AGAIN) that we should use the same type of bracketry that the stock car and race car fabircators use, since they race EVERY WEEKEND and know what fails.

 

Oh, and I know, I know... "You don't know who has tested what and what parts are certified by X manufacturer..." Come on guys, really, do any of you, with great certainty know that ANY aftermarket parts have been certified by anyone you trust? Seriously? My guess is if Juan asked someone at Stainless Steel Brake's Tech department, he probably got someone who knows what they are talking about, but then again, I get the feeling that you guys are SO skeptical, I'm seriously questioning why any of you would modify your cars with anything but parts made from Nissan or some other known Auto Maker.

 

Bob_H, if you get the chance you should probably go to Stock Car Products in Richmond and talk to those guys. Last time I was there they had a buyer for Childress racing and One for DEI who were placing orders for their teams... These are two of the strongest teams in NASCAR and they deal DIRECTLY with the same supplier I use. Now I'm no genious, but I'd suspect anything that works on a grand national 200mph car would work just fine on my 2700# (I put it on weight gain just for you!) Zcar.

 

My personal opinion... You could take four engineers, send them to a brothel in Nevada and none of them would get laid, Even with a suitcase full of money. They'd spend too much time re-engineering the exact proper way to install a condom.

 

You guys have fun.

Mike

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

http://www.jskinnovations.com/finalbracket.htm

[80LS1T]

http://www.jskinnovations.com/finalbracket.htm

 

 

Here ya go.....

 

 

 

 

Guy

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Thanks I know its something wouldnt work for me. Juan

[80LS1T]

Yah its

 

 

Guy

[Guest zrl]

on Hondas

The difference in brake torque created by a 12 inch rotor vs a 9 inch or 10 inch rotor on a honda is significant.

-Bob

edit speeling...

 

bob, I found that you're not good with physics.

a 9 inch rotor will create more torque at its outer edge than the 12 inch rotor at its outer edge on the same car and same wheel (the torque at the location of 9 inch away from the center of the 12 inch rotor sees the same torque as on the 9 inch rotor's edge). that's why bigger (in radius) rotors have more stopping power. it's the opposite as when you're tightening bolts and nuts.

 

you're right:

"The difference in brake torque created by a 12 inch rotor vs a 9 inch or 10 inch rotor on a honda is significant."

But the significance is that the 9 inch honda rotors will experience higher torque than the 12 inch one on a Z will.

 

i know you're skeptical, but make sure you know what you're arguing, especially the weak area.

[Guest Thurem]

bob, I found that you're not good with physics.

a 9 inch rotor will create more torque at its outer edge than the 12 inch rotor at its outer edge on the same car and same wheel (the torque at the location of 9 inch away from the center of the 12 inch rotor sees the same torque as on the 9 inch rotor's edge). that's why bigger (in radius) rotors have more stopping power. it's the opposite as when you're tightening bolts and nuts.

 

Man I desperately wanted to make this point.

Thure

[Bob_H]

You missed me on this one.

First, the original post about honda brakes was deleted and I cannot find it anymore, therefore we may be taking this out of context.

Assuming the same braking force created by the caliper, the 12 inch rotor is capable of creating more braking force,(torque), to the wheel. Its called leverage. You may be talking about something else and I am not seeing it.

I think what you are assuming is for a given braking force at the tire, the 9 inch setup is required to create more torque on the rotor than a 12 inch setup on the outside radius of the rotor - to which I agree. We would have to apply more force in the caliper to create that higher force/torque. The 12 inch setup will in theory give you a higher braking force,(depends on tire type, coeff. of friction to the ground, and normal force on the tire). So still, for a given force in the caliper, the 12 inch setup will exert more torque to the tire, and that was my point, just maybe not worded well. Brake torque is generally refering to what the tire sees.

I believe we are talking about the same thing, just in different ways. The real question is what impact does it have on the brakcet? For the same braking force,(to the tire), it would be less. But the 12 inch setup is capable of more overall, so we are increasing the forces involved. To what extent? That is beyond our simple math and analysis, hence my comment that to compare a 9 inch stock setup to a 12x1.25 inch setup is not a good comparsion.

-Bob

[jt1]

I agree with Bob's analysis of brake torque.

 

I think the real question here is not one of ultimate strenght, but of allowable deflection and fatigue cycle limit. A thinner bracket will deflect more under braking loads, causing reduced braking efficency, more pad wear, and shorter caliper life. The greater the deflection, the more the bracket is fatigued, and the number of stress cycles it can withstand is reduced, generally not in a linear fashion.

 

A thinner bracket may deflect 0.025" under max braking and have a lifetime of 10K cycles before it breaks. A thicker bracket may deflect half that much and have a lifetime of 100K cycles.

 

So what's an acceptable deflection limit and life cycle expection? I dunno, someone with more experience with braking systems would have to answer that. I can chip in that my DPR brackets, using 12.2 wilwood rotors and wilwood superlites, have survived two years of approx 10 OT events per year with no problems. They are made of 1/2" steel.

 

John

[CruxGNZ]

So what's an acceptable deflection limit and life cycle expection?

 

Has anyone thought about the ears that these brackets mount to? Some of these brackets will be mounted to metal that has been through more than 30 years of braking abuse... If you think about it, the 3/8" ears would probably be the first to break from fatigue.

 

!M!

[Drax240z]

If you think about it, the 3/8" ears would probably be the first to break from fatigue.

 

Not necessarily Mat. You can design for an infinite fatigue life. If the design is strong enough, the induced strain from deflection is not enough to start a crack and propigate it. Even after millions of cycles this can still be the case. Obviously, imperfections in material and stresses and strains higher than those the bracket is designed for can greatly shorten this fatigue life from infinite, to a very finite and approachable number of cycles. A jt1 pointed out this relationship is not linear, a 20% increase in strain can cause a 90% reduction in fatigue life.

 

Back to the origional point, the 3/8" won't necessarily be the first to break due to fatigue, it depends what the new loads are and where these loads put the fatigue life.

 

If someone has access to CARLOS spectrum data somewhere through work, then we can see exactly what number of cycles we should be designing around.

[CruxGNZ]

Drax,

Thanks for straightening(sp?) me out.

 

!M!