Afshin Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Off course it wasn't the turbo, It's the seals, it's the seals!! You really should go back to the head shop that did the crappy rebuild. While it seems that you like/trust the shop and they have done good work before, they did screw up this time. Maybee a new guy with no experience did it. Any way, they messed up, if they are a 'good shop" or reputable, they should assume responsibilty for their mistake and fix it for free (or in the least at minimal cost). You paid them, THEY have caused you a LOT of pain and AGONY, they really should fix it. Go talk to them, be nice at first, if that doesn't work give them hell (they deserve it). Tell them that the seals are leaking and that THEY need to replace them, end of story , and since the head has to come off, they need to do it. What do you have to lose ? You can't trust them for any future work anyways. Good luck man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 okay look I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm tellin you I pulled two of the seals off (the intake and exhaust from the 3rd cylinder) and I know for a fact that a)they used the brand new seals I provided them (unless they only used my new seals on the #3 cylinder? either way there was oil on all six spark plugs) and that they were installed correctly. Now I still do believe (and hope) that it could be the seals, because that will mean I dont have to replace the block and that yes the machine shop will have to fix the problem free of charge. But still... it doesn't make sense... Okay humor me here, answer me this. If I know for a fact that they used my new seals on all the valves, which I will find out when I get the head off, and if I know for a fact that they are all installed properly, and can see that none of them are damaged or anything... what else could the machine shop have done wrong to make it be a problem with the head? Just curious what else I can/should look for before being 100% sure one way or the other , if it is the head or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Can't think of anything else right now what they could have screwed up on when they did the head. I am glad to hear it's not your T3 and the J-pipe test worked. About the seals - i just picked up a set for my cousins '83zxt (smokes just likes yours, out of the blue) and i asked and double checked if there was any different part #'s for the N/A and ET motor. They only had one listing for 1981-1983 turbo and non-turbo Z's. He's even got the hydraulic P90A head and asked to make sure there wasn't any diferent part #'s for that and their weren't. And i'm hoping my guy was wrong as well and there is 2 different seals and you have the wrong ones installed. Hopefully i'll get my hands on his ZXT within a couple of days...as long as this damn Isabel hurricane doesn't crush us here in NJ! I will post what i find. Maybe they're related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 First. I read every post here, and I may have some ideas not presented thus far. 1st. Never assume new parts are good just because they are new. If everything in the engine was working fine, and you change 1 new part, chances are its the new part. (assuming nothing else was changed.. or broken, or bent etc etc..) 2nd. Crank case ventalation is important to these engines.. simply leaving the vent pipe open to atmosphere is not good enough.. Granted at idle it should not make much difference.. 3rd. which head gasket to you have. Felpro makes one for turbo and one for NA. both look the same.. the turbo one has a few more holes in it to allow oil and coolant to pass from the head to the block. 4th. why do you need to pull the head to look at the seals? there is not much to look at with the head off the car, and with the head off, you can no longer trouble shoot ideas with the car running... unless you think the valve or the seat is not right. 5th. My buddy and my self have 77 and 78 280's. We both had the same problem with our tps. we mearly left the rear most wire off (pretty sure.. its been many years since we had the prob) my buddies car is still running this way. it seems the ecu doesn't like screwy readings, and it prefers no reading to wierd ones. BTW we both had weber big throat throttle bodies. ( we eventually found out it had something to do with CA emissions. either the ecu the tps, throttle body, or the afm.. not sure which..) both of our cars are Canadian as far as we know it though... It took a long time to figure it out, but we have had no problems since unhooking the last wire.. last ditch attempt for the turbo seals, is to look at the turbo itself.. is there oil on the compressor side.. or even the exhaust side?.. the shaft?... Just putting out ideas for ya.... Good luck, and don't worry too much about the tps.. worry about it later.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 there is nowere else in the head apart from the valve stem/seals leaking that could cause leaking into all 6 cylinders. Also an incorrect head gasket would not cause this problem either. Ventilation which you already looked at would not result in this pattern of smoke either, specially at idle and start up. the symptomes are classic for valve stem seals even if it had not happened the second after you put on the rebuild head. the only other thing would be rings, which would make no sense and would also cause a different pattern of smoke (less at idle more with RPM...). You may still want to check compression, since it would also be highly unlikely for all 6 oil rings to collapse with other rings all being intact and to have normal compression in all 6 cylinders. Also did you reconfirm that there is leaking in all 6 cylinders ? what do the spark plugs look like ? Also valve seals and stems need to be oiled before the seal go on the rebuild to prevent high friction resulting sometimes in scuffing/tearing (many times people don't this), seals could be the wrong size (wrong part number or wrong item in the right package, it has happened to me) or the might not have been FULLY clipped/locked into the grove or they will leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ZR8ED - I was assuming that the valve seals would be good, but you are right, you never know for sure, so I will be taking them back off to inspect them and be sure that they are in good shape/the right part/installed correctly. You are also correct that I don't need to remove the head to do this... i actually just figured that out yesterday, that as of yet there really is no reason to pull the head, just the seals. I dont have the engine breathers vented to atmosphere any more, one is blocked off (I'll remedy that soon) and the other is vented into the intake before the turbo. The Felpro gasket I asked for was specifically for the turbo. I put it on myself and was checking to be sure no passages were being partially/fully blocked. As for the TPS... I'm not sure how unhooking one wire would do anything... that would just cause the TPS to remain always open, and my problem is that it runs like crap when the TPS is open, when the TPS is closed (at idle or when tricked into remaining closed off idle) it runs much better but advances the timing too much. Also the TPS on your car is a three wire unit, the turbo TPS has only two wires... at any rate, I will try your suggestion anyways For the turbo, there really was not any oil on the compressor side, I didn't check the exhaust side as it's gonna be a pain in the keister to take off the downpipe, and anyways, there probably will be oil there as oil is getting burned off into the exhaust, and also, since there was oil on the spark plugs, if it were the turbo it'd have to be coming from the compressor side right? Afshin - Thank you for explaining the different patterns to me... I've actually asked a few guys about how it would smoke if it were the rings but didn't really get a clear definitive answer. I agree that everything I know about this type of problem, and the pattern of smoke, does suggest the valve seals. So my next priority is to pull ALL of them off and check them out. Since I dont need to pull the head to do this it's not a problem. I'll make sure that they are not damaged, that they were installed correctly, and will do the best I can to determine if they are the right part/right size. Hell, I may even replace them just for the heck of it whether I can tell something is wrong or not. When I do go to take the seals off the spark plugs need to come out anyways so I'll recheck them all again at that time. Last I looked at them, they looked just about right color wise (maybe a little on the rich side) and had a light film of oil on them, and had some deposits around the outer ring (where the threaded part is). The plugs only have maybe 1,000 miles on them so the buildup is all new. Again, when we pulled the plugs to do a compression test before removing the head, they all looked PERFECT. I probably wont do another compression test until after I take off/check out/replace the valve seals... and then probably only if it still smokes. I'll take your tip also and put some engine oil onto the valve stems before I reinstall the seals. I'm also getting another alternator today.... I HOPE that is the problem there... I have to figure it must not have been charging the battery. See if this sounds right. I put a brand new battery in it, and every time I drive the amp meter gets lower and lower, lights get dimmer and dimmer, and the car cranks slower and slower when I try to start it. Then I park it for 3 days, and disconnect both cables from the battery. When I go to start the car up, reconnect the battery and turn the key, it barely cranks at all and wont start, cranks over easy with my g/f giving me a jump though. Sound like the alternator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 One other little trick I learned. The datsun B210 valve guide seals are also used when using a very high lift cam. they are approx 3mm shorter and allow a little more clearance for the extra lift of the cam.... I know its a 4 cyl, but they fit exactly the same, yet have a different part #.. it may not help, but it is an example of different parts that fit perfectly on our valve stems. why I asked about the turbo was is if the turbo had a bad seal, it usually blows out the tailpipe. For the plugs to get fouled, oil would have to be coming from the compressor side, and if it did, the compressor wheel, as well as most of the pipe from the turbo to the intake would have oil on it as well. I also had a brand new engine in the Z many years ago.. smoked at idle right from day one.. now in my case, I found that some of the valve seals were not even installed!! We installed the rest of the valve seals (found at the machine shop.. he didn't think they were important... and wala.. no more smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 one other thing. put new plugs in or at least clean yours very well. It is extremely difficult to trouble shoot your plugs if they have already been fouled. It can take a very long time to see changes in any tuning you've made as deposits slowly burn off...if at all... And for the TPS I was not aware that the turbo had a two wire. Yes ours have the 3 wire, and we were only using two of them. The whole tps problem came after we both started modding our cars.. both were dead stock when we got them. Mine happened after I put on headers.. it would not run after the exhaust swap.. all done the same day!.. very frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 As for the TPS... I'm not sure how unhooking one wire would do anything... that would just cause the TPS to remain always open, and my problem is that it runs like crap when the TPS is open, when the TPS is closed (at idle or when tricked into remaining closed off idle) it runs much better but advances the timing too much. Also the TPS on your car is a three wire unit, the turbo TPS has only two wires... You have just identified an ignition timing problem. You must set the ignition timing with the TPS closed. If you have too much advance when you close the TPS, just adjust it to the right mark, then you should run better off idle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I set the timing to 20* BTDC at idle, with the TPS hooked up and closed (in the idle position). I thought that was the way to do it? What I'm saying is, it advances too much if I rev the engine, but trick the ECU into thinking the TPS is still in the closed, idle position, which it was never meant to run that way. I'm also pretty sure that this also causes it to run leaner as the injectors stay in the idle, low rate mode... at least that's how it was explained to me. Should I set the timing with the TPS disconnected? Some little good news, I talked to the guy who did the swap again yesterday (he gave me the alternator for free... I think he really feels bad about this whole thing) and he said that if I inspect the valve seals and they are bad he'll reimburse me, and if they are not bad (even if they look fine I"m 90% sure I'm going to replace them anyways), I can bring him the block that I'm buying from my friend and he'll swap the head to the new block and install the whole thing for dirt cheap... I guess I couldn't expect him to do all that for free, at least he's cutting me a break. Now I dont have to worry about finding some way and place to do the block swap myself, so a huge burden is off my shoulders there. So now it's just a matter of time... thanks guys for smacking me around a bit when I was about to give up and sell sell the car... By the way I replaced the alternator today but all still does not seem right... problem is I dont know squat about amps, and this is the only car I've ever had that reads amps and not volts. After I replaced the alternator, the amps now read a little above the mid point at idle, and will get almost all the way to +45 when I'm actually driving around... Is that normal? Also, I noticed that after i went for a drive to charge the battery up (it didn't seem to need it, fired right up after putting the alternator) and got back home, turned the car off and back on, it was cranking slow again. The battery is new as of last week, so this leaves me thinking either a) the voltage regulator is bad and it's still not charging the battery right or the starter/starter solenoid is bad. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 MY KINGDOM FOR SOME DAMN VALVE SEALS!!! Called EVERY auto parts store around here and the soonest I can get replacement seals is two weeks???? Actually 2 out of 3 of the big chains say they flat out don't carry them anymore. Kragen has them as a special order item... for $8 A POP (x12!!!) and can't have them for two weeks... why doesn't that make sense? Anyways... I may just end up taking them off tonite at work... it's real slow where I work with nothing to do, and a friend of mine offered to come lend a hand. Kinda pointless to take them off I guess but it would put my mind at ease one way or the other, to know if its the seals or the rings. Hell I may get lucky and find out they just arent installed properly... snap them into place and then no more smoke. I know the chances are slim but hey... it's a chance. Hey at least it will make the time fly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus70ZT Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 have you tried your friendly nissan dealer? it was about a year ago but they got the seals to me within a few days and i can almost guarantee they were less than $8 each. but we do get a pretty nice club discount here in austin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 MY KINGDOM FOR SOME DAMN VALVE SEALS!!! E-mail me your mailing address - I have a set here that I'm not going to use. They are the good Viton (brown) ones, too. Also on the battery charging thing - did the new battery help for a while and then go flat, or did it just have no effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 As for the TPS... I'm not sure how unhooking one wire would do anything... that would just cause the TPS to remain always open, and my problem is that it runs like crap when the TPS is open, when the TPS is closed (at idle or when tricked into remaining closed off idle) it runs much better but advances the timing too much. Also the TPS on your car is a three wire unit, the turbo TPS has only two wires... at any rate, I will try your suggestion anyways Bastaad525 - I made my timing comment because I read this "...(at idle or when ticked into remaining closed off idle) it runs much better but advances the timing too much..." I interpreted that to say you had not timing at idle with the TPS closed. When the TPS is closed, I don't believe the timing will advance; I could be wrong on this, but it seems to me when I time my car, idle speed will not change the timing, but as soon as the TPS opens, the advance changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 TimZ - That would be awesome dude thanks!! I was gonna call nissan tomorrow and see how much they were going to rip me for those same brown ones... awesome dude thanks I'll email you. To answer your question, putting the new battery helped for a little while only. I just changed the alternator day before yesterday and now all seems to be fine. The amp meter has stabilized at about two needle widths above the halfway mark, this is with the headlights on or off. It still jumps around sometimes but it's holding up, and the car fires right up now, no slow cranking. Sleeper - sorry for the miscommunication. Actually I screwed up there also.... something I misread. Some info I read lead me to believe that leaving the TPS closed would cause the ECU to advance the timing along a flat preprogrammed curve, instead of tailoring the timing to different conditions and retarding it as necessary. Still not exactly sure how that works, but it made sense because when I did run the car like this, though it ran well it would ping if I got on it. If I get a chance I will try checking the timing with the jumper in the TPS connection, and rev the engine and see if the timing changes. I would think that it does though... the car really did run very well with the TPS closed like that... I would think it wouldn't have run that well if the timing was just stuck at 20* thru the whole rev range. The other explanation for the ping which makes more sense is that it affects the fuel curve... I do know that I've read on here that when the TPS closes it puts the injectors into a lower pulse mode or something... basically causing them to spray out much less fuel when the car idles. That's why I was baffled that the car would be drivable at all with the TPS bridged like this... let alone run really well. I would think this would be equivalent to running the car with the AFM disconnected. one other thing, is that when the TPS does open the timing retards about 4* before slowly starting to advance with revs. That one still makes no sense to me either. Does that mean the timing is too advanced? I'm going to replace the TPS with a new one when my friend re-rings the block and hope that helps. If not that, I believe it is a problem in the wiring harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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