zredbaron Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Phone calls made. According to TWM, it is well worth the wait for the 2000 series ITB setup over the DCOE replacement series. They expect a much higher midrange power output with the...manifold-like thing. (Well, what do you call it? It's kind of a manifold, kind of not....) Anyways, it's $3k without the injectors. I called Electromotive. My HPV-1 ignition system is not capable of controlling an injection system. They just released the TEC3, which they claim adds 10-40% hp to ANY setup, is $2k. Haha. Side note: he thought I was upgrading to FI from a single carb. I asked his professional opinion if it was really worth the money for just a few ponies. Once I told him I had triple webers: ".........Oh........." Obviously he'd been burned by some trips before, eh? So, I can either tune my webers, possibly upgrade to 45mm or spend $5,000 for some hp and tuneability. Hope this gives the silent readers an idea of what this setup really costs. $5k just for spark and intake is a lot. I'm thinking carbs. Not the Atkins kind. The good ol fashioned atta kid kind. I didn't really like the idea of ditching my carbs anyway. I'll call it a sign. So now I just need to go back to the cam choice. Sounds like the .550 lift and 305 dur cams we were talking about several replies ago are too much for a weekend warrior. I want it barely streetable, but streetable nonetheless. Where is the line where it stops being a car that can idle and park and being a car like johnCs where he just "launches it." .500 lift 290 dur sound about right? Can i push a little higher than that if I go with high compression? Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 If you're going really high compression I would think that the .550/305 would work. IIRC Dan drives to events, so that means that it is at least marginally streetable. JohnC has a trailer queen with a flex plate and multi pack clutches, so that certainly wouldn't be streetable even if he had 10:1 compression and 180hp. What I really want, and haven't found, is something like .525 lift and 300 duration. I think that would suit my engine well, and I'd probably be able to run pump gas. If you don't want to change or fly cut the pistons, I know that my .490/280 cam works with no internal mods, but you'd still need the springs and retainers, and if you're unlucky like me, might need the retainers cut to make it all work together. If the compression is 11:1 though, you'll need to mix the gas... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katman Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Just one quick note. There's more to a cam than lift and duration numbers. The amazing thing about the Sunbelt cam is that it can use less spring pressure than stock due to the lobe profile. This is free horsepower. It takes something like 75 hp just to drive a stock cam at 5000 rpm. A roller cam (nee Malvern) or low spring pressure cam like Sunbelt's gives you some of this back. The Schneider and other traditional vendors' cams are very old profiles, often copies of copies of somebody else's. The software for designing cams and simulating the results to the engine is much better today as you might imagine. Dang few people are still developing the old L series motors these days. Sunbelt is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 Thanks. You say very few...who else other than Sunbelt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted March 30, 2004 Author Share Posted March 30, 2004 JohnC: Jim Thompson at Sunbelt has a lot of different cam grinds for the L6. My cam has a .534 lift but I don't know (and Jim won't tell me) the duration or the lobe centers. DanBaldwin: Ditto what JohnC said re Sunbelt. My cam from Sunbelt is something like .550"/305 or 310 duration. Those guys probably know more than anyone else about building up high-perf NA L-series engines at the moment (and btw Dan, I just saw one of your replies that I previously missed from another post--I think you're right, you've helped me with just about every post I've ever put up! Thanks!) Well, this was some time ago that we started this one, eh fellas? At the time Sunbelt was prepping for race season, so I was asked to wait a few weeks before I inquired again. I waited about eight weeks, called today. Chet mentioned only a .550 grind and a .475 grind, but admitted Jim was the man. I need to get back to him with some specs, but his rough ballpark estimate really surprised me. I was thinking the maybe $2k, 1500 for labor and 500 for parts. Guess I was wrong...$3000!?!? If you don't mind me asking, is that about what you guys put into your heads alone? I know, I've heard it. Put all your money into your head, it's worth every penny. I just wanna get another confirmation. $3k is a lot of money to a kid. You two say go? I've never experienced a change in head, I can only imagine. My head right now is probably worse than stock (I'm only getting 157hp at the wheels, with a stroker, and i do know the block was done right) So obviously my head is a real POS (and the 40mm weber arg, but I think my head is the choke point right now). Side note: dropping in a 4.375 R180 (with a Quaiffe ATB, baby!) made a real difference, lemme tell you! You should have seen the look on my friend's face when his new Vette lost to me (up to about 100mph, im sure I would have been toast seconds later) and showed him the 157.2 rwhp printout. Haha. That diff is hot! You guys may have the fastest NA Zs around, but I might be able to win the fastest ~150hp bracket! haha.... (And I'm still deliberating the 3x2 throttle bodies, btw.) Oh, and I'm not sure if my memory serves me right but I think it was John Mortenson who, like me, wanted to find a grind with about .500 lift and around 300 duration.... Sunbelt told me they would custom grind me a cam for whatever they could fit onto my block (this was assuming I would leave the pistons alone), and basically whatever power band I wanted. So there's that option for us, John. Hey this one could have used a bump anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Please let me know if and when you do that .500/300 and what it costs. I might just have another cam reground if it is really expensive. Thanks for the update. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted March 30, 2004 Author Share Posted March 30, 2004 Jon, I was told almost as a side note, that the cams accounted for $500 of the cost of the head. I'm not sure if that was for the custom-grind or regardless if they had to grind it or not. I do think I remember the custom grind being about a 6 week wait, regardless of time of year. I would think that if you wanted to, they would let you just buy a cam, but I'm not sure. I won't be calling them back until next Monday, as the man I really need to speak to (Jim) won't be back until then. You want me to ask if he'll sell a cam as is? Sounds like Jim has all the knowledge for the L6 motors, it wouldn't be hard to get a little clarification for you. Who knows if the $500 included something else, it did seem a tad high to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Yeah, ask him. Thanks. I'm betting it includes rocker arms at $500. Not a bad deal, but I've got other places to spend $500, since I already have a fairly similar cam now. It would be a small step up for me, but a huge one going from a stock cam. Thanks, Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I'm not a good case study of how to spend money on a head. Jim made three custom cam grinds doing the R&D on my N42 cylinder head. As an example, I'm running valve springs that have 25% less seat pressure then stock Nissan springs but my engine's soft redline is 7,500rpm. I'm not sure if Jim is putting that R&D knowledge into customer cylinder heads yet. You'll know if you have single valve springs on the head you get back from Sunbelt and the 3 & 4 exhaust ports look "funny". I wish my headwork only cost $3K... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyzbear Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 I'm jumping into this thread a little late. I to have had a Z since I was 16 and I'm on my third but I'm 36. I to have a 3.1L with 3 40's an 3.7 lsd in the rear. I used a P90 head which I gave to a friend of a friend to port that does racing heads. When I showed him my N42 head he said the P90 was better. He charged me 1200, ported the hell out of it and matched ported the intake. He also but new swirled valves and went bigger on the exhaust. He took all the metal out around the valve guide and put new ones in. It looked great. He told me it flowed almost twice as much. I put it on my 2.8L at the time to see the differents. It was like 3/4 throttle was full and full throttle was a rush. My old 2.8L put out 240hp, flat tops, N42, 3 40's, Crane Hi-6 and cam 495 lift and 280 duration. It has good power from 2000-6500 rpm. I had a 510 lift and 308 duration cam in it along time ago but wasn't much good for street and had problems with wear. Good power from 3200-8500 maybe even 9000. I use to set the rev limiter at 9000. Never got that one on the dyno. I just got my Z running again. I kept breaking trannies and stuff. Now I have a t-5 trans hopefully it will stay together. Next, I have some 45mm Webers to put in. I'll update in a few. One thing that I have found with Z's is heat. I run mine at 160-170. I built a custom heat shield that bolts to the fenderwall and goes under the intake. I put a heat blanket under it and over it. I also lay one on the header which is ceramic coated. I tried wrapping the header but it ruined it in a year but did work. You can get a heat blanket from Summit. Have you ever noticed she runs real good when warm? I work on cars for a living but if I was you. I'd get a ported P90 head, 3.1L, Total Seal rings, turbo oil pump, 15 pound or so flywheel, Crane or MSD, ZX dist. or better, maybe keep 40's with bigger chokes or 45's get them jetted right and nice big linkage. I would not go crazy with the compression 10.5 or 11 to 1 is fine. Mill the head and shim the cam towers. Pop-up pistons are $ and pain with big cam, forged if you plan on putting it on juice. If a big cam is for you, get a expierenced guy to set it up for you. A medium sized one is easier, less $ to setup, streetable and comes on sooner but ends sooner which is better for more gear. In a quarter mile 3rd will be your best friend. When you get this bad boy in there other things will break. I broke an axle stub a week after putting in my 3.1L, rebuilt 5spd a month later. Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyzbear Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 And I would get an ITG air filter and get those fuel lines away from the header, keep them cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyzbear Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Soory one more thing crome valve covers retain heat. I read it in a Hot Rod Mag that did a very good article on it. I didn't believe it either until I read it. An upper stress bar will do wonders. I like the brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyzbear Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Ok this will be the last time, where is the hose going that is coming off the valve cover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted April 6, 2004 Author Share Posted April 6, 2004 billyzbear, The hose is going into my intake manifold, #2 cyl. I used to have a breather, but it made a mess out of my engine bay. A mechanic told me that I should let my engine suck it out for me. I never really liked the idea that much, mixing that mess into my gas/fuel, but I blindly trusted him. Thoughts? I've got a 3 point strut brace. I had it chromed but it was flawed so they're doing it again. It will be on soon. What's the problem with retaining a little heat in the valve cover? And by the way, I'm working on getting a TWM cold air intake. The K&N chrome is pretty, but cold air will help a lot, and I won't have to mess with blankets and such. Thanks, the brakes really hold up. I fully recommend Ross and his MML kits. They are very sturdy parts, and he goes out of his way to set up up the way you need to be set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 So cyl #2 is getting air/fuel and oily crap out of the crankcase. Have you considered a catch can, or routing it to the exhaust? I can't imagine that routing the vent to #2 only is doing you any good. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted April 6, 2004 Author Share Posted April 6, 2004 Haven't really considered anything. To be honest I had forgotten about it. What do you do? I think the exhaust option sounds the most appealing, how exactly do you pull that off? Drill a hole and put in a check valve, or what? On another note, I'm shipping out my head to Sunbelt tomorrow. Whoever told me a while back that the 3.1L stroker kits have a .025" positive deck height was right on the money. I measured it: exactly .025". Translation: I can put in a cam with ~.520-.525 lift (using a 2.0 mm gasket). I wasn't told the duration, but was told I would have power from 3200-7200. And yes, JohnC, Jim is using what he learned from your R&D, I will have single springs in the head. He expects a little over 200 cfm per cyl., and thinks my 40mm webers will be just fine if jetted and choked properly... And Jon, I just realized I forgot to ask about buying a cam individually! I'll get back to you, I promise! I know you mentioned before that you were unsure about swapping out a cam that might be .500, but heres the .525 we always wanted. I was really impressed talking to Jim. Plus, with less spring pressure thanks to their lobe shapes, thats even more power to the wheels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1783&prmenbr=361 Just weld the fitting into the collector and connect to the valve cover. I guess you could connect via a tee to the vent on the side of the block as well, but if you look in the How to Modify book it warns about having too much vacuum. For this reason I was thinking I would put a breather on the side of the block (just a little K&N filter) so it would really just get rid of pressure and not create a huge vacuum. Or vice versa, maybe connect the hose to the side of the block and run the filter on the valve cover. I am going to do this as part of my latest round of modifications, if you want I'll buy this and I can send you 1/2 for $20. You really only need the nipple and the check valve, the other stuff fits V8 valve covers, and the L6 already has a built in baffle in the valve cover. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billyzbear Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 The port on the valve cover is the breather, put a K&N little filter on that one. The pcv port that would get vacuum is under the exhaust manifold up front. The cold air induction sounds great, I plan to do something like that for mine. What about the fuel in the carbs and fuel lines? What about the heat coming off of the header onto the intake manifold? I'm telling you I can feel the difference without the heat shield. Not sure why your fuel pump is on the driver's side. It should be on the other side. The fuel line out and return is on the passenger side. Put the pump there and route it over the engine and to the carbs. You really don't need a fuel return. The line on the driver's side is for the fuel evap. Originally on the driver's side there was a portioning valve that that line went to and the other end went to the pcv hose(vacuum). On mine, I have two pumps. One that puts out 1 pound of fuel pressure and another that puts out 6. I run just the one pound when I'm being mellow. Leans the mix out some but not to much. I didn't plan this it just happened. The other is a 260z pre pump or the same one you find on a 85 truck. It has lasted over 12 years. With a crome valve cover the oil runs a couple of hundred degree hotter. All so when you pop the hood people go wow look at that shine. Black is best. I think thats why the turbo valve cover is black but not sure. What pistons did you get? Do you have MSD or Crane? What are you useing for ignition? I hope you don't get valve float at high rpm's with only the one spring. Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 With a crome valve cover the oil runs a couple of hundred degree hotter. You've got to be joking, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted April 7, 2004 Author Share Posted April 7, 2004 hahaha, easy john. by the way thats the second time you've cracked me up today. i read one of your older replies to the gas mileage thread....6 gallons per hour...i love it! even better was that no one seemed to notice, everyone was so proud of their 30mpg... i assume that was a typo about the temperature, billybear. if it were a couple hundred degrees, there would be some serious problems. the water temp in the radiator isn't even a couple hundred degrees. and by the way, the hoses topic is not what this thread is about. i will reply in case any silent readers are wondering or confused, but lets keep this post about performance head and camshaft stuff, shall we? feel free to email me if you have further comments or questions about that stuff or my setup. i will be the first to admit that my hose setup needs revamping. thats not a fuel pump you see at the bottom, its a pressure regulator. my fuel pump is electric (nissan competition) and it mounts near the fuel tank. the two fuel lines you see are both sending fuel to the carbs, there is no return line. yes, im sure they are a bit warm there, and yes, I plan on moving them. i also think i'll take out the pressure regulator, i dont think i need it with the nissan comp pump. you may be right about the intake manifold getting warm, particularly sitting at stoplights and such, but at speed i would bet it is negligible (johnC, what does the racer's voice say?). the pistons i have came with the 3.1L overbore kit i got from nissan (more or less flat tops). my ignition is direct, no sloppy points--three coils and a controller. thats it. (which is why the distributor has been replaced with a blanking plate, and you see not spark plug wires, they are on the other side, and short) electromotive ignition allows me to plot an advance curve that changes with rpm (electromotive hpv-1). i am an electrical engineer and i stand by their design over msd, crane, etc anyday of the week (if anyone wants details why, email me). i literally experienced a 19% increase in power from this ignition (dynoed, have the printout to prove it). i attribute this to the advance curve that you can dial in, and the fact that my timing was mildly retarded on the initial run (to protect the engine since the e31 head brings high compression with the stroker kit). as for the valve float at high rpms with only one set of springs...this is engineered by sunbelt, reputed to be the best in the business. they have a cam lobe design that doesnt require firm spring pressure in order to hold the rocker arm in contact with the cam lobe. just believe, buddy. they're that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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