Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Using the L28e:2.5" Exhaust straight through,newer headers,ITB's,Upgraded fuel system,Adjustable Cams,Underdrive Pulleys,Electric radiator fan. I'll probably throw a 50 shot of nitrous on if need be. I'm trying to pull atleast 200rwhp on a daily driven 280zx 2+2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I'd suspect you will need the 50 shot... The mods you list won't bring that car even close to 200 at the wheels... We spent a lot of bucks on one fo my Fprep motors in a 2 seater 260Z and barely cracked into the 14s at the track (14.94 for one pass only at MIR in 1993)... and that was with head work and a cam, header, tuning, digital ignition... AND I broker the trans on the 4th or 5th run... lunched 3rd real nice... You also have the extra weight penalty of it being a 2+2 ZX... Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Hmmm,how would I get 200rwhp out of a NA engine? The 50 shot would probably put me close to if not over the 200 with the mods I listed. It does come with 140ish hp doesn't it? I need to break,what,230 crank hp to get 200rwhp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Push it out of a C5 military aircraft??? Seriously, That car weighs in at about 3000# and it is pushing somewhere in the 140-150Hp range... Getting 230-240 crank HP is gonna take a WHOLE lot... John Coffey is turning 306HP (Correct me if I'm wrong John) on a SUNBELT built professional race motor... So don't get caught up in all the BS about people making huge HP gains with minor bolt ons... There isn't a single car out there without a power adder or serious internal reconstruction that is breaking 200HP at the wheels, N2o being the exception, and unfortunately, stock rod bolts and rings do NOT live long with lots of N2o! Good Luck! Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I guess Im used to Turbo cars. I guess I'll have to run the nitrous when I wanna really have fun. I'm not looking to build anything to fast really,just something to have fun with. I have my Z31 for fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 A set horsepower number does not make the break from boring to fun. 170hp at the wheels on a 240Z is lots of fun on the street and will get you a high 13 second car. Even on your 280ZX2+2 you should end up with a high 14 second car if you can get that much power to the rear wheels. Unfortunately the bolt-ons you mention might get you 10 more hp at the wheels if the rest of the engine and support systems are in perfect condition. So, my guess would be 120hp at the rear wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I think individual throttle bodies, aftermarket fuel injection, cam and header and full exhaust would net a lot more than 10 hp. Maybe I read his original thread wrong, or maybe Mike and John did, but I don't know how you guys can see that as a 10 hp increase. I don't think the pulleys and the electric fan are going to be a noticeable difference to the butt dyno, but you'd probably see a couple hp on a real dyno from those things. Maybe JohnC didn't read your original post... The things that are missing from his engine build ideas (in loose terms) are compression and headwork. The stock compression on your NA L28 is something like 8.5:1. Put a small chamber head on there with the rest of that to get 10.5:1 and you might be closer to your goals, but I don't think the 2 compression points (or even 4 points) gets you to 300 hp. Mike, I think that the hard part is NOT getting the first 85% of your hp increase, its getting the last 15%. There is a huge law of diminishing returns with the L series, and if you spend 20 grand on an engine you might get 20 more hp than they guy who spends $8K. And that last 15% takes you from an engine that can run pump gas to a finicky race gas eating tempermental bitch of an engine too. Look again at Dan's dyno chart. Runs on pump gas, 235 hp to the wheel. JohnC's going to hate this, but use the 15% rule, that's 270hp (it's just an example John ). Reduce that for the 2.8 vs 3.1 engine size, and you're now at 243hp. Back to Dan's motor again, it's that last 35 hp to get from Dan's engine to JohnC's engine that costs the huge $$$. Dan also says that his carbs aren't tuned to perfection. It would be a lot easier to tune ITB's with a programmable FI setup... so there is more hp there too. I DO agree that a high hp L motor is wasted in a ZX 2+2. Get a V8 if you want serious power without serious $$$. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Couple points here... John C.s car was making over 300 at the wheels... that is a huge gap I didn't think was possible without a power adder. However, that is a LOT of money spent... Second, My mistake, I didn't see adjustable CAMS (And there is only one cam) I though adjustable cam GEAR... but I digress... I still say that will the changes he outlined, he would be hard pressed to make real HP... To many missing parts in the equation! Your compression comments are exactly what I'm refering to. I just don't see the need to spend the kind of money that ITBs and a programable unit would cost... Why not just implant a Turbo motor and harness instead??? Did I just say that??? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 200hp at the wheels with an N/A motor... I think the biggest thing that will get you there is head work. N/A L6's get all there power from a well done head and good cam. You might want higher compression too, and a lot will depend on what head you actually have on the motor now. I built an overbored (brought the engine technically up to a 2.9 litre), high compression, SU carbed N/A motor for my 240 which ended up putting very close to 170hp to the wheels and also 170 lbft of torque. This was with a mild cam, headers and freeflow exhaust, and a few other tricks. I have very little doubt that had I had the head ported and polished and possibly gone with bigger valves... all very pricey stuff... that I could have broken 200hp at the wheels, but I also feel that unless you're building a stroker motor, that 200hp is pretty close to the limit for an N/A L28. And in my 2300lb 240 it was only good for getting me a high 14 second 1/4 mile and 0-60mph times of about 6.5 seconds. The only guys I've seen or read about running 13's have done the headwork I mentioned, which is pricey (I think $1500-2000 is about what it would cost, many just do it themselves), and of course there is Norm who runs high 12's but his is a stroker... Strokers can supposedly be good for up to 300hp or even more but I dunno how much fun you're going to have driving that motor on the street. Anyways, my total investment approached $5000, and remember that is non stroked, no head work, and only SU's for fueling. With programmable fuel and ITB"s like you mentioned you'll probably be good for a bit more than that but I wouldn't think higher than 220 but you are looking at serious money then, and if you add it up you probably would be better off just going turbo or maybe V8. I'm running a turbo motor in my 240 now but have had a lot of problems with it, so I lean more towards a V8 now though I will not say that the problems I have had would be 'common' I just had a serious stretch of bad luck. But I will say this, my $5000 N/A motor investment netted me 170rwhp. Now, I've spent a comparable amount on my turbo swap, the swap and donor motor actually only cost me about $3000 including the EFI, I also got a tranny and diff from the turbo car, and also ended up having to rebuild the motor, so now I'm in for about $5000 on this motor as well. My current setup is in my signature, bone stock motor with just a boost controller, blow off valve, no intercooler and crappy exhaust, and my EFI is not running exactly right either, and I put down 194rwhp and 236 lbft of torque.... over 25hp and almost 70 more pounds of torque!!! In the same car I'm now good for 0-60's in the mid 5's (when I can launch it right) and a mid-to-high 13 second 1/4 mile... enough to make me kick myself for 'wasting' the money on building an N/A motor. When I add an intercooler, better exhaust and a better fuel pump I should be good for close to 250hp at the wheels easy, that's a very common number for that setup. And it should only run me maybe another $1000-1500... for an additional 50+ hp!!! I gaurantee you wont get that kind of hp-per-dollar on an N/A motor. And that is still a bone stock motor/head/cam/efi system. The limits are pretty high with a turbo, and with just the mods you listed doing you could probably spend just about the same amount to swap a stock turbo motor into your ZX if you found a reasonably priced donor, and unlike me, most of these guys on the board have had GREAT luck with good running motors that have lasted very nicely, out of sub-$1000 donor cars. Anyways... food for thought... your money could be better spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 All I want is 200rwhp. I don't wanna make this car to much right now,as I have a 300zx that I'm building. This is just gonna be so I can have some fun on my way to and from school,on the weekends,etc while I build my 300. By the way,this is a Slicktop 2+2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 About the Cams thing,my 300 is a V6,thats why I said cams,wasn't thinking. Which would be cheaper,getting the 200hp from an L series N/A motor or doing the Rb25 swap? If I drop the Rb in,I'll have to add an LSD which won't be to bad. The Rb20det would be enough,and I can get one for around $1000,for the full front clip. The Rb comes with 200hp stock (flywheel),so it wouldn't be to hard to get 200 at the wheels with that motor,or I could just save a bit more and drop an Rb25det in. What would be the best investment? Oh and as far as having fun on the street,I just love to drive. I don't mean I'm gonna be racing every car I see on the streets. I would like to be faster then a few Honda's I know around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 yeah but for 200hp you have to do a LOT of work on an N/A motor, well not if you're using nitrous, but I agree, the stock ZX motor wont put up with that for very long. We're just saying for the money and amount of working you're talking about doing, you could easily do a turbo swap for about the same money and labor invested, and end up with a faster car to start with and much more potential if you ever decide you want more. You're saying it like you can just get 200hp out of you're N/A motor with the snap of your fingers but making it sound like the turbo swap is out of the question because there is too much involved or something and this is 'just for fun' when really, there isn't much of a gap between the two paths at all that makes the 200hp plan much more feasible for you. If anything, ITB's, programmable fuel, and nitrous all together will cost you MORE than the average turbo swap, and probably take longer to get set up and running properly too. Stock turbo motor, stock EFI, 10psi of boost (get a make-it-yourself boost controller for about $10, they work great and a lot of us use them), an intercooler and good exhaust and BAM you have you have just met your 200hp goal and exceeded it. You could have it all installed and running in less than a week, I did... the longest part would most likely be locating a good donor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 The RB swap, any RB, would be very pricey unless you are fabricating all the custom stuff yourself (motor and tranny mounts etc.) but again... you're straying to a harder path when you could just get a turbo motor which will drop right in with custom NOTHING. RB's are cool motors and are novel and rare in a Z, I've thought of doing an RB20DET swap, but it just seems kind of pointless. A skyline motor swap will cost you big time, I think the couple guys here who've done it have averaged at like $15,000 spent. But now you are getting very far from your "I just want something easy, quick and fun". If you want something that needs custom mounts and all that and want to spend money doing that then get a good V8 motor, you can find one that will get you more than 200hp at the wheels easy for that $1000 you would spend on your front clip, and at least the custom mounts and stuff are already 'mass' produced and aren't hard to find at all. Bottom line dude, if you want 200hp or more out of your ZX, and dont want to spend a lot of money or a lot of time, and want something easy, then either go turbo or V8. N/A motors are too pricey to build for what you get back, and something like an RB swap will be way too complicated and pricey for something you just want to do for fun on a car that isn't your main car. Stop fighting it dude turbo or V8! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I really don't wanna go the v8 route. Don't the l28et and the Rb20det have the same potential? Are the l28 blocks like the Vg30e blocks? With only a few things from the vg30et,I will be turboing my N/A block. (forged pistons,rods,etc are going in..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Couple points here... John C.s car was making over 300 at the wheels... that is a huge gap I didn't think was possible without a power adder. However, that is a LOT of money spent... Second, My mistake, I didn't see adjustable CAMS (And there is only one cam) I though adjustable cam GEAR... but I digress... I still say that will the changes he outlined, he would be hard pressed to make real HP... To many missing parts in the equation! Your compression comments are exactly what I'm refering to. I just don't see the need to spend the kind of money that ITBs and a programable unit would cost... Why not just implant a Turbo motor and harness instead??? I thought John's car made 285 at the wheels... John??? I think if he did all that he stated up front and just slapped on an shaved P90 he'd probably have met his 200 whp goal. EDIT--Bastaad's results were probably mostly due to the carbs. Bastaad, I can't tell you how much faster my car is on the track with the Mikunis. It was a HUGE difference, then I tuned them!!! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 After thinking about it,maybe a v8 is the route to go. I do want 200rwhp,but I also want reliability(rules out Ford ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 yeah I think power potential is similiar between RB and L28et, well not sure what stock block RB's max out at being able to handle though, I know stock block L28et's are good up to at least 300hp. But again, if they are the same potential, why go to all the extra cost and hassle of doing an RB when an L28et will drop right in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Bastaad was right. That is the cheapest easiest way to get 200 hp to the wheels. Pretty much any V8 that is not from the smog era will get you there, and you won't be pushing the engine nearly as hard to get it. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FinalRights Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 What v8 swaps do you suggest? Would be great to have a Vh45de,but thats a diffrent story. I'm probably gonna go Chevy as they seem to be the most common engine for the 280zx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Chevy 350 out of a... damn what year was it... '70-something camaro, right before they started seriously dropping in performance from emissions and other crap. Or... hell practically any 350 really... earlier ones will be more powerful I guess and easier to install. Later EFI ones start picking back up in power but complication goes up too with electronics. All the custom everything you need to put that in your Z is pretty much already available from places like JTR and Motorsport. You could probably get away with spending as low as $3000 if you got a good deal on a motor and tranny. Well that might be lowballing it a bit... I priced the entire package needed to install the motor once not too long ago and it was about $2500. Motor could be anywhere from free to several thousand dollars for a late camaro EFI motor or crate motor. I'd say get a 350 known to come with decent heads, find a junker in sorry shape for $100, then get it rebuilt and put a good carb on it. Later you can upgrade the intake manifold, cam, and heads and probably jump up to about 300hp easy. Whatever you do DONT go with the three speed auto trans, get a manual or a 4 speed auto... unless you never drive on the freeway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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