Guest Tim McArthur Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Staying with stock rotors and calipers (78z) and just upgrading pads for street/track use. Im more concerned about the pads being able to take the heat of doing HPDE events without having to swap pads out for regular street driving. Local parts store recommended Axxis Metal Master Ultimate series (rated up to street driving to 760* temps) opinions? I understand that Hawk "blues" are real good but comp only. Hawk "Plus" are suppose to be street/track but both Hawks are going to go through rotors quick. Anyone else running a street/track pad that takes the heat of 20-25 min HPDE sessions and are still safe for street use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Try a set of carbo tech pads. They will do what you need. http://www.carbotecheng.com/main.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 For a stock 280Z brake system run on a track you'll need brake pads that can handle spikes to 1,000F and brake fluid that can stand at least 500F. Hawk Blacks can go to 900F and are ok on the street. Also use Motul 600 fluid and switch to Ferodo Green stuff rear brake shoes. You should also get in the habit of checking the rear brake adjustment after each session and bleeding the brakes before each track event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim McArthur Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Johnc, can you tell me what you meen by Hawk Blacks? I see they offer the Hawk HP Plus, then to the Blue's. Are you refering to the HP Plus pads? So, with your advice I am considering: Hawk HP Plus pads $60 Nismo AM4 "Greens" $44 I currently use Valvoline synthetic brake fluid (rate just over 500*) with stock calipers and rotors. I am considering either removing the rotor "heat shield" (yes, no?) or cutting a notch into it and mounting some ducting to assist in the rotor cooling. Sound reasonable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Maybe Hawk doesn't offer the blacks for the stock front caliper. HP Plus should be fine. Don 't use DOT 5 (synthetic) brake fluid in a performance applicaiton. Get a good DOT 4 (Motul 600, ATE Super Blue, Catrol SRF). And getting air to the front brakes is always a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest the_dj Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Where does plain ol' DOT 3 fluid fit into this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Just check the wet boiling point of the brake fluid. Motul, ATE Super Blue, Ford HD (supposedly, I've never bought the Ford stuff), pretty much any racing brake fluid will work. DOT3 is unlikely to survive - again, check the wet boiling point. Yes, fluid really makes a difference. Not that expensive either. I seem to remember buying Super Blue for ~$12 quart. As to the pads I don't know exactly how Hawks relate to Porterfields, but I went through a set of Porterfields R4S (hipo street/autox pad) in about 1/2 hour on the track, then the lining went away and I pushed the piston through the back of the pad like it was a giant hole puncher. I'd go with the Blues or a Porterfield R4. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Ultimates are a good dual purpose pad and will take a fair bit of heat. Kind to rotors too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim McArthur Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I talked with the guys at StriclyZ and Motorsport and it seems that all street/performance pads will most likely NOT handle the heat generated from hard braking on a road course. Axxis Ultimates were my first choice, but considering that the Hawk HP Plus pads costed only slightly more I went with them. I have not picked up any performace shoes for the rear just yet but will most likely go with the NISMO "green stuff" @ $44 each side. The problem with the Hawk pads is that they are going to eat through the rotors faster then stock or Axxis pads, but no one can answer how much faster The Hawks are not rated up to the temps I desire either, but with the addition of ducting (to be installed) I am hoping to keep the brakes cooler then my first HPDE day. My main problem from my first day was the type of wheel I had on the car (Centerline type... no ventalation at all) so my brakes could not purge the hot air. I have cured this problem with some new wheels, which I am hoping will do a lot for the brakes ability to cool off after each use. I've decided at this point, that if I eat through the pads or rotors too quickly at my next HPDE day, I will go with some hi-temp Porterfields (swap out at the track from stock pads), and find the best Shoe's I can come up with for street/track use. Ducting, doubled if need be, and removal and/or alterations of the debri sheild surrounding the rotor. If all that doesnt work, well then I will just have to deal with it. I want to run the car in the ITS category and have to use the stock brake system if I am correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 A lot of it has to do with how you use the brakes. Medium pedal applicaiton over a longer time (easing into the corner) puts more heat into the rotors per lap then getting on the brakes hard and then getting back off quickly. Also, as you gain experience you'll use your brakes less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 John, I've heard the EXACT OPPOSITE from roadracers before. I have had this argument before, but it had been settled the other way the last time. Now you just opened up a big can of worms in my mind... Tim, I drove to the track on R4's and didn't really have any problems. Whatever you get, test drive it around the block, and I think you'll see that only an endurance pad is really unsafe on the street. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm just repeating what I was taught at the Skip Barber school. Either be on the brakes or not. Trying to save the brakes through medium pedal application over longer periods of time reduces the amount of time that the rotors get cooled. One instructor said that even a light brake pedal application puts more heat into the rotors then the flow of air can remove. The only time the rotors are cooling is when the brakes are off. More time off the brakes, more time for cooling. For example: some will argue that cooling the brakes from a 1000F hard brake application down to 500F cannot be accomplished in the additional 8 seconds per lap (of no braking) allowed when compared to a medium brake application at 800F down to 500F. Can you pull 200 degrees out of a solid rotor in 8 seconds? Most likely on a 70 degree day, maybe not on a 100 degree day. All this is assuming you're trying to maintain the same lap times. Lifting early and coasting for a second or two before applying the brakes is a brake saving technique but your lap times will suffer. Using understeer to scrub off speed is another way to save the brakes. Early apexing is yet another technique but that can really hurt lap times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 OK, well I was told the opposite by Dennis and Peggy Hale, and by the racers from Maximum Motorsports, and I think it was in the book Driving Faster. Unfortunately, I can't seem to control myself - I always brake hard, always drive deep into corners, and I always overheat my brakes. I guess the real solution is get a brake system big enough to take whatever you can throw at it. That's how I'm going to deal with it, but maybe some ITS guys will have something to say on the issue. Don't really want to jack this guy's thread, but this concerns him too I suppose. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Carbotech's are a great street/track pad and are kind to the rotors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 https://www.kvrperformance.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I think the confusing parts is "...the same lap times." If you're willing to sacrafice some time per lap then going easier (less pedal) on the brakes over a longer time will make them last longer. You're just backing off a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I use Ultimates on the road and track but my brakes are upgraded and the fronts have ducted cooling. With stock brakes I'd guess you would want somthing able to stand higher temps. Talking of higher temps, I saw a pair of Ultimate pads the other day which had got so hot that all the paint had flaked away from the metal plates and while the brakes were still working, the pad material was looking very sick. On Hawk blacks, my single experience reaction was 'how can they sell this rubbish?' They screamed in use and ripped hell out of the rotors. There are far, far better racing pads around than those. Ferodo DS3000 compound are a pretty good dual use pad. Will take more heat than the Ultimates but are bloody expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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