V8 Handling question

[fl327]

initial z, thats good.

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[BLKMGK]

Hrm, I think if mine were Scarab from the get-go and I wasn't moving to a stick shift trans I'd skip the $200 cost (driveshaft) of changing over. Obviously some folks have switched and enjoyed perceived benefits but it's a PITA and does cost some cash. I'm lazy enough that taking a perfectly good project off the road to do that would probably be just enough to not make me do it

 

Starting from scratch though I think it's a no-brainer, I'd go JTR. The only added cost is the setback plates and some hoodpins. Everything else I'd do pretty much the same including an electric fuel pump because that's my prefrence. (shrug) I do find it most amusing that someone with an all iron setup would presume it to handle better than a Scarab style setup that used aluminum bits. The change is subtle moving the engine back and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize it's pretty fuzzy as to which would be better. I'm pretty sure this guy wasn't a rocket scientist (lol). I guess that's almost as amusing as those L6 folks who ASSume that a V8 is going to handle terribly and be "slow" I often wonder what runs through a purists mind when statements like that are made

 

I think at this point that it would be REAL interesting to get some corner weights from a JTR setup car. If I knew where I could get it done I'd have my car weighed since I think it would be a good example. Wheels on my car are probably heavy but coil-overs, billet calipers, and other things might offset this some. Battery is dead center in back with an aluminum cell belowbehind it (shrug). Heh, now I'm curious - I'll have to ask around and see if anyone close by can do this.

[fl327]

wow, this right here was one of the best threads that i have seen on this site, good stuff from both sides. currently i run the scarab position, and i kinda like it, but i can understand just from reading the jtr how nice the conversion is, im also lazy enough to not want to do a jtr, simply because the 327 doesnt burn oil, starts for me every time i want him to, revs and drives great, tranny clutch linkage are golden, car drives great in general right now, and i think my car handles great, and does not overheat, and i run a stock datsun radiator and run 170 on a 160 all day. once its time to drop the blower/turbo motor in, im gonna go jtr, it just makes sense, but i wouldnt rule out the scarab at all.

[Guest potterma]

Hi all,

I'm glad to see opinions batted around without anyone getting flamed. How refreshing.

Unfortunately, I can't jump in with personal experience on the Scarab/JTR/V8/I6 debate. My 280ZX is still an inliner (although I find it terribly underpowered!), but...

Anyway, I'm rather supprised that no one here has seen fit to "quote the experts."

Remembering back to my first read of Fred Puhn's book "How to Make your Car Handle," Getting the heavy stuff, like engine, battery, etc, low and between the wheels is a good thing. Especially when going racing.

 

Just my 1.5 cents worth....

[pparaska]

I guess it was a senior moment that kept me from quoting. But I bet Puhn's book and others of that ilk, along with my Mech. Eng. training had something to do with my gut feel that putting the drivetrain CG close to the for/aft CG made sense. Now, if it makes a big enough difference to really matter, that's somewhat debatable. But if you're starting out fresh, and understand all the variables involved, hopefully this thread will help you decide.

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

How well do those 240Z's handle?

 

I know for old cars they handle pretty damn good. I'm still in the daydreaming stages of owning a V8 240Z.

 

I owned a 1986 300ZX Turbo which handled pretty well, and I currently own a 1991 300ZX Twin Turbo which handles like it's on rails. How would the 240Z handle compared to my other cars? I know it won't touch the TT, but what about compared to the 1986 turbo?

 

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: MegaShaft_2000 ]

[Mikelly]

Punn... Oh yea, I have that book and shame on me for misisng that one... Bottom line is lowering the CG and moving the weight so you can get closer to 50/50 distribution is an advantage for any car.

 

At the risk of starting a war here (And please, lets keep it civil) I'd say that putting a cage in, doing coil overs, and all the usual suspension mods will absolutely make the V8 Z handle as well, if not better than the last generation 300ZX. If you do the JTR method, lower and slide the weight back, and get the right moytor and trans package together, I'd suspect that you would have a strong advantage. Those 300ZX TTs are heavy, and that will be the handicap here. I have a buddy who ownes a 300ZX TT and we have lined up on curvey back roads and he gave up. He is a much better motorcycle rider (Wheelie-ing past me on the interstate at well over 90mph) than car driver, but he was super impressed with how my car handles. BTW, his 93 300ZXTT ha the Stillen suspension kit on it, and his car is no slouch...

 

Mike

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

It's good to hear that the 240's handle very good, but saying it can handle with a TT Z is stretching it I think. The TTZ is in the A class in AutoX, competing against Porsches and Ferraris. Modded 240Z's a class down in B class. The car is lower and wider, and while it is a bit heavy, it's still very nimble.

 

Some people are under the misconception that the TTZ's are heavy dogs, but they forget that they dominated almost everything else when they came out in 1990.

[pparaska]

Doesn't a modded class A 90-96 TTZ have a good bit more power to weight than a modded class B 240Z? That alone can make a difference.

 

Autocross classes are one thing, but if you are not worried about what the envelope of what the racing classes allow, a 2500-2600 lb, 400-500 hp 240Z with a stiff chassis and highly modified Z suspension and brakes is going to be hard to out handle or out power.

 

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ]

[Mikelly]

Weeellll I'd say that 400-700 punds of weight difference is a big issue (Depending on the mods and options). Also, true the ealry Zs are in a different class in competition, but remember that a lot of that has to do with the displacement and weight of the car and years produced. I'd bet large dollars (Once my car is back together) that I could pull very respectable times on an autocross or track day event and I wouldn't be surprised to see a "Fastest time of Day" or two. Now I say this based on the mods I've done to my car, but knowing what I do now, I wouldn't do anything less to make it handle well... You know, cage, coilovers,larger swaybars, 17X9.5 wheels, lots of welding, lots of lightening, and BIG BRAKES and Wide TIRES!!! Not everyone will do this to a Z for personal or financial reasons, but this is what I would do to make up for the fact that the car is 30+ year old technology.

 

In 1995 I went to an invitation only track day at mid-ohio where my car pulled over 1.1 G on 15x8 wheels and goodyear 9inch wide qualifier compound slicks. That was with Boge struts and stiff i inch lower Suspension technique springs with a cage and urethane bushings. This was also with that car weighing about 2700pounds. I also did my best slalum run with a trap speed of just over 68mph. I now know that I could beat the heck out of that because I didn't have enough caster dialed in, and no rear camber and toe adjustments. I was also wheezing on about 200 flywheel HP.

 

If you are talking bone stock, these cars handle "OK". But if you want to go modified, then I'd go dollar for dollar with ya on my current project when it is done. My buddy with the 300ZXTT thinks I'm nuts, and he pretty much thought I was BSing him when I made the same claims before I took him for a ride... And that was on old 1980s KONI shocks and MSA springs with flexy floorpans! Next summer we'll have to hook up between Va and Jersey and I'll let you decide if I'm pulling your leg. Maybe By then I'll be able to start making suspension parts for the 2nd generation 300ZXs! I've already had several requests to look into it...

 

Mike Kelly

ZF racing LLC

[Mikelly]

Mega,

what is the dry weight of a 300ZXTT??? I thought I read that they were in the 3400# Range... But that sounds high... Also, wet weight would be good to. I know what my car weighed, but that was before welding in my substantial cage...

 

BTW, the F-prepared 240Z I'm sponsoring out in Northern California is Killing the field out there. Of the last 5 races they have captured FASTEST TIME OF DAY 3 of the events, and one of those they got 1st and 3rd. The only competition they currently have is in the form of GT2 class (Full on Race) Cars... Our car has a 2.8 liter non-asperated motor and Nissan 4speed, no coil overs, no cage, weighing right at 1900 pounds, although that will soon change with the addition of cage, wider tires, and a few other mods, including some of my adjustable rear control arms.

 

Mike Kelly

ZF RACING LLC

[SpeedRacer]

Yeah, one of the greatest cars I ever owned was a black 1994 300ZX TT. It's an amazing car - very comfortable but went like stink and cornered like it was on rails.

 

Remember the 300ZX TT had very sophisticated aluminum suspension and "Super HICAS" which was rear wheel steering. It was always strange to look under the rear of the car and see a steering rack! R&T Road Test summary indicates the car pulled .91g in stock form. When the car came out in 1990 that was a very impressive number. Actually today that’s still a pretty impressive number and I think just a set of today’s tires with there improved compounds/tread would improve on that number. Anyway, it was a huge jump for the Z car as an earlier copy of the magazine listed that the 1987 300ZXT could only pull .79g.

 

BTW, the 300ZX TT was also speed limited by the ECU chip to 155 MPH! Change the chip, (which eliminated the speed restriction, added a bit of timing and boost) and it would easily do over 185 MPH.

 

When you drove it, it didn't feel as heavy as it was because of the excellent power to weight ratio and superb suspension. Even with some aluminum body panels, mine weighed in at just over 3,400 lbs.

 

All in all the 300ZX TT was (and still is) one of the most impressive sports cars ever made.

[BLKMGK]

I'd agree. The ZX TT, the Supra TT, and the FD3 RX7 are all sweet cars that I'd group together. Each has it's good and bad points but together they're terrific examples of engineering that I'd love to own. I wanted a Supra but they were too expensive, and mostly still are. I didn't see any ZX TTs in my range and the density underhood was pretty scary, so I ended up with an RX7. It too handles like it's on rails and it's light weight really helps. One of these days I'd liek to own a Supra and I wouldn't mind the ZX either. My Z doesn't come close the RX7s handling but more time behind the wheel might raise my confidence

[Guest Anonymous]

300 ZXTT vs. V-8 240? The difference between fast and quick is a lesson best served without warning.

TTOD at Shasta this year and last was not won by a TT. Not only did they not win, they lost to the most nose heavy engine mounted 400 V8 240 I have ever seen. Driver differences? Maybe. Two years in a row?

The 400 in this car idled like a kitten purring. No serious HP development there.

Add a better balanced car, and some serious HP the V8 would prevail in any venue. Period.

Normally aspirated cubic inches gives any Z the ability to access low end torque and hp unseen by turbo cars. The potential for HP production with a turbo is prodigious, but races are a matter of fractional seconds. The car which can access the most HP the fastest has a decided advantage in any contest of speed. With the exception of autocrossing, handling is a privelege which can only be practiced from a leading position. One I highly doubt the TT would find itself in.

[pparaska]

The SERIOUS weight difference has got to be a factor in autocross as well.

[blueovalz]

I'm thinking that was close to the NA version, and that the TT was around 3600 wet. I was quite surprised at the weight gain in the TT.

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

I understand the TTZ is much heavier, (3475 lbs), but it is still in a higher class than the 240Z. The TT Supra is also a heavy car, but it is also in the A class with the TTZ. Even the NA 300ZX is in the A class.

 

I know the 240Z is a good handler, but don't forget that the 300ZXTT was designed by the same company 20 years later, they had to have learned something about suspension setups.

 

But like other posters have said, if you take a light car, give it fat tires for lots of physical grip and a big engine, it will be hard to beat. I geuss in stock form the TTZ has it made, but once you start modding a car the sky is the limit.

 

I'd be interested in taking a ride in a V8 240Z sometime to see how it feels.

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Idaho Z Car:

Add a better balanced car, and some serious HP the V8 would prevail in any venue. Period.

Normally aspirated cubic inches gives any Z the ability to access low end torque and hp unseen by turbo cars. The potential for HP production with a turbo is prodigious, but races are a matter of fractional seconds. The car which can access the most HP the fastest has a decided advantage in any contest of speed. With the exception of autocrossing, handling is a privelege which can only be practiced from a leading position. One I highly doubt the TT would find itself in.

---

 

You seem to be biased for the V8 without considering any strongpoints of the Z32TT. How come the Skyline, Supra, and 300ZXTT seem to dominate most race events, and they are turbo cars?

 

I seriously doubt that an equal driver in the 240 would beat a Z32TT. Have you ever driven a TT?

[Mikelly]

We're talking apples and oranges here.. I have driven a TTZX and here is where I think the waters got muddied... You do all the mods we're talking to a 240-280Z and it becomes a seriously different animal...

I'm biased towards the V8 Zs because I own one, but make no mistake, I WOULD LOVE to ahve the aerodynamics of a 300ZXTT. In stock form, hands down, the 300ZXTT is the faster/ maybe even BETTER car. Deep down inside I'd love to do an LS1 conversion on one someday!

Mike

[Guest Anonymous]

Mega,

Mikelly is right. The waters got muddied from your first post to last. Your first post stated (handling) "I know it won't touch the TT". Your last post stated "seem to dominate most race events".

Your first post would tend to suggest an anytime anywhere approach to a handling contest, whereas your last seems to want to put parameters on it. (Race events have rules)

I simply prefer the former. Most races are fairly imprompto affairs, where one must be ready at the drop of a hat, or the change of a staging tree "go" bulb.

One local Z Buick turbo car (600hp) needs several seconds to build up boost enough to match my 60ft. times. I leave the line from an idle, whether it be on the street or on the track. If I were to race you, I certainly wouldn't give you time to spool up! Adavantage: V8 Z car.

I built this Z car to allow me to play in and hopefully make a good showing with the car in as many different venus as possible. Many V8 converted cars enjoy better than super car acceleration performance at a fraction of the cost. At 3475 lbs. your TT would have to develop 700+ Hp to match the power to weight ratios many V8 conversions here have.

I simply do not believe that even if you could develop that kind of HP that you could access it as quickly as a high compression normally aspirated V8 can. By the time you spooled up turbos big enough to develop 700 hp, the V8 would be in a different zip code.

Until you have experienced 1.6 second 60ft. times, it is really hard to fathom the feeling. It is hard to beat a "40 quarter mile blasts for $1.75 worth of gas" offer but here it is. Leave me the title to the TT for ransom and I will hand you the keys.

Perhaps then you will come to appreciate the advantage of instantaneous throttle response.

Handling is a subjective judgment, but raw acceleration most often leaves the driver or passenger with a concise opinion as to its effect on them. In fifteen years, I have never grown tired of the "gee whiz" factor these cars can deliver. Hopefully you will get the opportunity to experience a quick, fast, super handling version of the Z conversion in the near future.

My small block produces close to 250 hp at 3000 rpm and tops out just under 500hp at 6200 rpm without nitrous and this is on a 350 platform. Many guys here have 400 plus cube motors which make 500 hp look puny.

Traction requirements go up along with increased weight, a factor which for even the heaviest Z conversion is 500 lbs less than the TT.

Most races are a combination of corners and short straights.(sometimes really long straights). If the latter is true, HP and gears are going to win.

Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects in motion tend to stay in motion. The heavier car will always face a greater challenge to get moving, slow/stop or corner as compared to a lighter car.

Having a car which can accelerate from a standstill to 100 MPH in 7.0 seconds is an advantage which is going to be hard to overcome with handling alone.

Have you looked into the weight reduction of the Chevrolet 4.25 inch bore all aluminum V8 block?

That coupled with a 135 lb. T56 would be the TT I would like to have. Make it a pearl yellow convertible and I will have a Z for sale!

Thanks for being a good sport. All this talk is just to get you to try a Z V8 anyway. Who knows there may be a V8 Z in your future.