Leon Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Well I knew what the emulsion tubes did, but not to that kind of level so thanks for the lesson Keiths stuff is expensive, and I dont get how certain things match up to the weber counterpart.... I like the idea of some of the things he has put together, but at $20+ a jet that adds up real quick. If you didn't understand it to that level, then you really didn't know what an emulsion tube does. Keith's stuff might be more expensive up front, but it's a hell of a lot better than assorting a hoard of jets without guarantee that you'll get anything right. He allows returns and jet swaps for free, as well as education. His stuff is cheaper in the long-run IMO, but that's just my thought process. With that said, I didn't buy his stuff until we did a "Weber test day", and with Keith being local, he brought his stuff and let us try it out. I understand the confidence issues here, but I'm happy being the test mule. EDIT: as far as matching jetting to your engine, that's the part where Keith helps you. Edited April 12, 2013 by Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duragg Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 If you didn't understand it to that level, then you really didn't know what an emulsion tube does. We are all hear to learn and enjoy the process of the mighty DCOE carb. They are quite the little teachers... aren't they? I can't tell you how many times I've been told: "Just go EFI with ITBs... its EASY!!!... At least the DCOE carbs talk with me, share a drink, and can hold a conversation over time (I don't condone their smoking however). Read the Megasquirt forums if you want to make yourself feel better: X-tau, impedence, boards, Can you tell I just discovered the emoticon archive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Hey Duragg, yeah, thats why I went with Electromotive. Just bolt on, and very minimal wiring. In 5-10 years, I plan on going full EFI/ITB. Alot of parts will move right over based on what I have already invested in.I have read from quite a few people, that triples love a non dizzy setup. I mainly went with it because its more modern, and its more finely tunable. up to a 1/3 degree of accuracy. And I also didnt want to go figure out how to modify the distributor. The Kaminari dizzy I thought was rediculously priced considering its only a few hundred bucks more to go Electromotive. I wont know where im at tho until I get it on the dyno out in Scottsdale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duragg Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I have to give a plug to Pierce Manifolds. Over the last few days I ordered a bunch of things from them and needed them all overnighted. Very helpful over the phone, pricing was fair... it is what it needs to be. Everything shipped and arrived as planned with zero errors. Its the little things that count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 We are all hear to learn and enjoy the process of the mighty DCOE carb. They are quite the little teachers... aren't they? I can't tell you how many times I've been told: "Just go EFI with ITBs... its EASY!!!... At least the DCOE carbs talk with me, share a drink, and can hold a conversation over time (I don't condone their smoking however). Read the Megasquirt forums if you want to make yourself feel better: X-tau, impedence, boards, Can you tell I just discovered the emoticon archive? Good post! I'm a fan of both. I wouldn't mind having one Z with triples and the other with ITBs. With that said, nothing good comes easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I have to give a plug to Pierce Manifolds. Over the last few days I ordered a bunch of things from them and needed them all overnighted. Very helpful over the phone, pricing was fair... it is what it needs to be. Everything shipped and arrived as planned with zero errors. Its the little things that count. Nice, I've had good experiences with them as well. They're pretty close to me so shipping is always quick. Only thing I didn't order from them are the stiff internal throttle return springs, since Spruell in ATL charged way less for them. Typically though, Pierce's prices are very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) PIerce Manifolds is the best place I found online to do business with these carbs. I highly recommend them as well. From the free parts I got, it didnt make sense to me, so I haven't implemented it, just the choke only. Maybe Ill try it out for the hell of it, but I cant see how going down 1 main jets size and going up two sizes in air correctors are going to help any. Im way lean as it is.... Car has by far been the most driven today than ever before. Since changing the chokes, there is a very weird problem at exactly 4000 rpms no matter what, the carbs cough/spit/pop ... I cant get over 4000 rpms even when mashing on the gas. Its extremely odd. (***EDIT*** Stupid Rev limit is way off LOL) Im pretty sure its because of the carb being setup wrong, but part of me wondered if it had something to do with timing? Im at 36 degrees at 3000 rpms on how I have it setup. Its leaning way out from what I can tell on the AFR.. I should have my new parts monday from pierce with the three day ship. Couldnt justify the 90$ overnight fee like some can Also had a wicked accident tonight in the garage. I had put a towel over the fender while I was doing some wiring work, and I started the car up. The first carb spit fire out and I got it started shortly after that. It took me about 2 minutes later to notice that the towel was on fire with 1 foot flames coming off it... Im just glad the wife didnt see, I wouldn't have heard the end of it... Edited April 14, 2013 by AZGhost623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 (edited) Tweaked a few things here and there, and its much better. Still more tweaking to do. Need to go bigger idle, maybe 60F9? Need to go bigger choke now as at WOT, my AFR is 10. Bigger chokes are going to mess with that IDLE too... Current setup on this test: 32 choke 165 mains 165 airs 55F9 idles F16 Tubes 00 Pump Bleeds 45 Pump Jets Found out my 5th gear on this car is toast wont go in at all when moving... so all high speed readings done in 4th gear. Will not go above 5200 rpms, just runs out of power, but probably due to the AFR being screwed up at WOT. hot engine idle / 800rpm / AFR is 10.9 (corrected to 12.5) 40mph / 2000 rpm /15 AFR 55mph / 2500 rpm / 15.5 AFR 75mph / 3400rpm / 15 AFR 85mph / 13.2 AFR (Guess I j ust need to always drive fast!) Its first "official" drive http://youtu.be/5S86FEphNs8 Edited April 15, 2013 by AZGhost623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 FYI, chokes don't affect the idle circuit. They're for the mains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Yep I was educated on that over at side draft forums. What do you think of my AFR's on the idle circuit when cruising? Too high? Where should they be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Yep I was educated on that over at side draft forums. What do you think of my AFR's on the idle circuit when cruising? Too high? Where should they be? I wouldn't mind that at all, as long as WOT AFR is richer (~13:1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) Got my new chokes in, and decided to double check everything again. and now Im fighting another problem. Can someone post a picture of what their pedal linkage from the firewall to the "rod" on the webers? Apparently from the changes I did, now the pedal has play in it. This is a problem because I have an old clutch spring attached to the pedal near the firewall to return the carbs all the way "up". Well the pedal is all the way "up" Since there is now "play" in the rod, the carbs dont return all the way up on their own because the spring isnt doing squat now. This leads to a 2000+ idle after a quick blip of the carbs. This whole linkage system is just not really constructed well imo. Its the standard linkage that comes with a weber kit and I have it going right to the standard throttle bar attached to the pedal. watch how I can blip it and the pedal itself on the firewall doesnt move. also I have my idle screw backed all the way out, its barely doing squat and its idling at 1200rpm. All idle screws backed out but, its not adjusting very well. I have removed all idle screws but one, so I just have one adjusting all three. I adjusted all the linkages, and made sure I still had a "half" covered first progression hole and that really appears to be what has messed things up. By making that "half moon" on that progression hole it has advanced the idle quite a bit. Apparently I was off before and now its correct. Should it really be setup that way?? or is that more of just a performance setup? http://youtu.be/0pq7RDh3C-U Edited April 17, 2013 by AZGhost623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 We cannot see your video. Youtube is telling us "it is private". When using bigger chokes, you decrease vacuum in carbs so you need bigger idle jets. If you haven't changed your idle jets with chokes, you need to do it. There's some slope on the linkage, especially at the U shape connection at rod tip (where the slotted hole is). You can reduce it with some springs inside the U shape. Extra slope could come from ball joints, make sure they are tight. If they aren't, change them. At the tip of the pedal, you have a pin also, one of them on clutch pedal was crushed. check it out. When I setup my linkage, I usually untighten every linkage arm from the main rod going to carbs, I get the carbs throttle closed & sync' before locking everything up. So I know everything is ok at idle. I adjust arms length to get Carbs 100% open at WOT afterwards. Some people are, as suggested, setting everything up by looking at progression holes for idle. Since I cannot do it (there're plugs instead of bolts on my carbs), I use the best lean idle method with a lot of success. I've got AFR at cruise at 14.0/15.0, good progression & smooth idle. My chokes are small (32mm) so it also helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I fixed it, looks right now. I seriously think there has to be a better setup for the linkage. Its crap, so much play in it. I did a good search and found some fantastic cable setups people have done, but cant find out where they got the parts or how they did it. I have seen some of the cable parts for sale, but it seems to be just for one carb not a set of triples. I would also be curious as to how/where people are mounting their return spring. I think I found a place last night that may work, but im not too keen on it right now ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) Setting up the linkage is non-trivial. There are some very good threads on this if you search classiczcars.com, especially pertaining to the Cannon manifold. When using bigger chokes, you decrease vacuum in carbs so you need bigger idle jets. If you haven't changed your idle jets with chokes, you need to do it. Bigger chokes don't affect the idle circuit, they only boost vacuum in the mains. Progression also should not really be affected. The idle circuit gets its deltaP from the downstream side of the throttle butterfly. I would venture to guess that people upsize idle-jets on larger choke setups in order to cover up holes that weren't as prevalent with the smaller chokes. Rather than upsizing idles, I'd play with e-tubes. Edited April 17, 2013 by Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) You might be right! I need to change my 32mm chokes with 34 in the future. So I'll experience it. The video now works, it seems the U shape is pinched without spring inside it. People who switched to cable came with very good feedback. The cam going with the cable allows for smoother action of idle compared to the very sensitive system with rod. Edited April 17, 2013 by Lazeum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Setting up the linkage is non-trivial. I dont agree with that statement. The linkage is an extremely important part to the operation of the effectiveness of the carbs. If you got slop in your linkage its going to make your entire system not run right. People who switched to cable came with very good feedback. The cam going with the cable allows for smoother action of idle compared to the very sensitive system with rod. Do you know what they use, or where they bought said cable system? I am extremely curious on how this is setup/works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I dont agree with that statement. The linkage is an extremely important part to the operation of the effectiveness of the carbs. If you got slop in your linkage its going to make your entire system not run right. I don't think you understand what "non-trivial" means... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 They call the cable "Lokar cable". Cable install on 4-barrel manifold - Arizona Zcar ....and this thread on Classiczcars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbeau Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 I put in 6 new plugs, NGK bpr 11s i think, and after driving for a few miles the first four plugs are sooty black, and the last two plugs are white. The car felt like it was driving fine. Good throttle response and speed. All carbs have the same jetting and same turns on the idle adjustment screws. The third carb has a sticky butterfly return. I have to use a stronger return spring to pull it shut so it will idle at about 900 rpm. The linkage makes sure that all carbs open and close the same so I dont see how that could be the problem. What else could cause one set of plugs to run so different? I have posted my jetting size on the last page if checking that will help yield some answers. Thanks for any help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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