Audiophile Techies - Your Opinions Please

[Phantom]

Let me start this out by say I do NOT have an unlimited budget - but I do want to install a good sound system in my 280Z.

Right now it has a 4x35watt peak head unit running 6 speakers, two 4" in the stock location even with the seat backs, two 4" in the door panel at the knee, and two 6x9's in an MSA sound enclosure at the back. OK but definitely on the weak side.

First - I am going to Dynamat the entire car. Wasting my money on the sound system otherwise.

What I have in mind is something like this:

A combination 4" system up front with mid-range 4" in the door and tweeters on the A pillar,

Use the stock location 4" units for filler and then use 6x9's in the back for the base.

No - I am not going to install a subwoofer. Don't even go there.

I need suggestions for:

Speakers. 4" combo, 4", & 6x9's

Head unit

4x50watt rms amplifier Install under the passenger seat?

CD changer - Install in the deck well behind the passenger seat?

Any other ideas that would improve the system without going extreme.

[Guest Phailure]

There are the usaul MB quartz and Boston Acoustics for those of us who have money. If you need cheap and decent, MA audio isnt bad. Sony car audio isnt supposed to be that great so i'd stay away form it. Also, from what I hear, cd changers tend to skip alot so you might want to take that into consideration. You should try going to some retail stores like myer emco and tweeter and listen to some of the speakers. A general budget might help direct the way you want to go. For some, a limited budget is $500 and for others, its $2000.

[innerware]

I've got some 4" polk audios in my car and they sound great for just two 4" speakers. I good place to mount the gear is right behind that bumber thingy as you go into the trunk area. There is a bunch of space under it and you could easily have doors that swing up and is covered in carpet. I have a 78 too and that is what I plan on doing. For a car with as limited space as it has I am amazed this area was wasted. I also have run a sony head unit (the same one ) for 5 plus years and have had no problems with it. I own all sony stuff inside the house and out. I love sony products. I can't vouch for there car cd players but my home one is going on 5 years without a skip. Good luck

[Guest Phailure]

Sony makes some good stuff but I've heard form multiple sources that their car audio isnt up to par with the other stuff they make. *shrug* Of course, I have never bought their stuff or listend to it so I wouldnt know.

[Guest 2slo4u]

The alpine type S speakers sound great, don't cost a lot and are very sensitive so you can use a relatively small amp with them. I don't know of any amps small enough to fit under your seat that actually put out good power but I wouldn't use Power Acoustik, MA audio, or Pyramid. My friend sold those products at his audio shop and had numerous problems with all three brands. Pyle also came back a lot. I would stick to a Name brand. They are name brand for a reason. Pioneer's amps are very reliable and sound good.

[Guest Phailure]

I've never had a problem with MA audio *shrug*. Oh yeah... theres two MA audios by the way. Theres some company called Mobile authority or somethin that goes by MA audio. On the other hand, my brother's 4 chan pioneer amp lost 2 of its channels with in a year. Generally, pioneer's stuff is good. Of course, in the whole scheme of car audio world, pioneer is only average. Alpine makes good stuff... especially their head units. Its obvious you need the alpine f1 status

[Mikelly]

If you get a decent head unit (And I urge you to buy an MP3 version), you won't have as much of a need for amps... And I'd look into a powered sub-amp combo if you desire a little thump for your rump.

 

I'm using some Boston Acoustic/ Blauphunks in the vette... two 6.5 three way cloth up front, and the same in the back, with a pioneer 6.5 inch powered sub in the rear. I'll do something similar with the Datsun IF I install a stereo in it.

 

Mike

[Guest Phailure]

If you get a decent head unit (And I urge you to buy an MP3 version)' date=' you won't have as much of a need for amps... And I'd look into a powered sub-amp combo if you desire a little thump for your rump.

 

I'm using some Boston Acoustic/ Blauphunks in the vette... two 6.5 three way cloth up front, and the same in the back, with a pioneer 6.5 inch powered sub in the rear. I'll do something similar with the Datsun IF I install a stereo in it.

 

Mike[/quote']

 

Do you find it annoying how the vette turns up the sound when you floor the car? Sorry for the hijack

[Guest 2slo4u]

Having the stuff installed properly makes a big difference also. Some people try to bridge amps with too many speakers or too low of an impedance and burn them up. I see that a lot at work when people change the way we properly configure their amplifiers. Their friends seem to know more than we do and bridge the speakers incorrectly to get them louder. Yeah, it works for a couple of minutes until the amp. goes into protection or meltdown. They think we can't tell the install has been changed and they're like "I don't know what happened, I was just listening to it (not that loudly of course) and it just stopped playing.

After attempting to explain why the amp is burned they sometimes fess up and admit their friend messed with it. I guess they figure we're trying to limit how loud they can play their system. "spl nazis"ha ha

[Phantom]

I've talked with three installers so far including Car Toys and Hawk. I've had Alpine, Cadence, Focal & MB Quartz speakers recommended.

I've looked at Pioneer, JVC, & Kenwood head units and CD changers.

I've looked at Eclipse, Cadence, and Alpine amps.

The costs are coming in around $2k

By the way, the CD changer will be installed vertically rather than horizontally which I think will help with the skipping problem. I know it took one heck of a hit to get the vertical changer in my Jeep to skip but the horizontal JVC unit in my sons Bronco II skips as much as it plays.

Anyway - was just hoping someone who has maybe walked the walk on a system for the Gen 1 Z car might be able to pass on some do's & don'ts.

[Guest Phailure]

I've looked at Pioneer, JVC, & Kenwood head units and CD changers.

 

I still say alpine f1 status

[Drax240z]

You'll never get good sound without an amp, even the best decks out there only put out about 18watts rms, though they may peak as high as 45w. The output rating is always in peak unless specifically stated in rms. (45wx4 on a deck for example)

 

I've had good success with Kenwood and Alpine decks and would recommend them. However with Kenwood in particular look at the higher end decks as their low end ones aren't nearly as good in my (limited)experience.

 

I'd also consider a small (10") subwoofer to really complete your sound. I don't necessarily listed to music that needs a sub to sound good, but with a sub it sounds better and fuller. A sub doesn't automatically mean pouding bass that is going to give you a headache, you can set the balance.

 

I'm interested in hearing your results with a vertical mounting of the head unit too. Ever since I put in the coilovers/illumina's, etc. my cheap (and old) Clarion head unit skips a LOT.

[Guest Aguyandaredhead]

I'll keep it short and simple.. PM me I have 18 years high end audio exp.. I now manage a high end custom home theater company. We also have a 12volt side of the biz, I can help you design it and I can also sell you the equipment from middle of the road to high end alot less than you will get it walking into a shop..

 

Let me know if I can help..

Jeff

[Brad-ManQ45]

Instead of 6X9's in back I would consider an array of 6's and a couple of tweeters - possibly some 3.5 or 4" - I don't like 6X9's. Shouldn't be too difficult to have a custom enclosure made to acommodate this.

 

In my 83ZXT I have a Sony CD head unit, CD changer, ADS speakers with the 5 1/4's in custom enclosures on the doors, the tweeters mounted in the door about 6" above that. A Hafler 100 w/ch amp feeds these.

 

I have a simple set of Pioneer 6.5" coaxes powered by a Rockford Fosgate Punch 22 in the stock behind the seat location for rear fill.

 

I have an Audio Control Eq/Crossover for the front and (yes I DO USE a) subwoofer - a Competition 12" in a 1.75 cu. ft. enclosure powered by a R-F Punch 100. The enclosure has the CD changer and Punch 100 attached to it so that I can remove the whole rig if I need to haul something.

 

This was all put together over 9 years ago. It's not the loudest but it is accurate, and I can hear it well with the t-tops off on the freeway at illegal speeds.

 

I did put DynaMat in the doors...

[Drax240z]

Instead of 6X9's in back I would consider an array of 6's and a couple of tweeters - possibly some 3.5 or 4" - I don't like 6X9's.

 

Can you be a bit more descriptive about why you don't like 6x9's? Something a bit more logical/scientific/descriptive perhaps? I'd like to hear your thoughts as I was thinking about adding some Mid to low range boost to my system using 6x9's.

 

Sorry, but this is like saying "YOU shouldn't put a V8 in YOUR Z because I don't like V8's" Back it up with something!

[rc's240z]

I too have extensive experence in the car audio industry. There are a couple of things I would suggest. Simple is best. Look at your budget and lets talk about what you are looking to do.

 

I would suggest a reasonable deck, Amp front separates and small sub. for best results and the least amount of investment. Dynamat will help some, but you are better off spending the money elsewhere. A little dynamat in the right places will help some...

[Mikelly]

Phailure, I removed the stock system from the vette and don't have the bose interface anymore, so no speed sensetive volume control in the vette anymore!

 

For the rest of you guys, for 6+ years I owned a recording studio part time, and worked full time as the chief producer/ engineer for sound and Video for one of the CIA's Multimedia production centers... We made the "PEB" or presidential daily briefs on video (Paper versions were so talked about during the 9/11 hearings)... Anyway, I had a number of years of audiophile experience and was certified through the Sony Institute for sound theory. I know a thing or two about reproducing sound.

 

What I'm getting to here is, I found it impossible to truly reproduce the kinda sound quality I wanted in ANY of my Zs over the last two decades and found that anything larger than a 10inch sub was over-powering in the Z, mainly due to the fact that the volume in the rear hatch, combined with the slope of the rear hatch, caused some reflective characteristics I wasn't real happy with. I also agree with the other recommendation to look at alternatives to 6X9s, but not because I don't like them. It boils down to placement, as well as the design. You need to match all the components based on the car, and the placement of each in it.

 

However, the wind noise in that car, the thinner metal allowing engine and more specifically exhaust noise, will cause problems even with a LOT of dynomat. I also got tired of removing the sub box and amps every time I autoX'ed or track day'ed the car.

 

I had some polk 6X9 plates I loved in one of the earlier Zs, but it wasn't garaged and the paper cones didn't hold up well... If the car isn't garaged, I'd look at something else for the cone material... also, I would avoid using a CD changer... Why add more complexity and wire to run?

 

Buy a decent head unit that does CD, MP3 & WMA files so you don't have to carry 20-30 CDs with you... 10 hours of music on one disc certainly is more attractive to me!

 

Mike

[Brad-ManQ45]

In a word - distortion...From the oval driver, and the blocking of same by the speaker(s) in front of it.

 

Two 6" speakers will have more area and produce less distortion than a 6X9.

 

You could probably have 6 or more 6" across the back panel along with mids and tweets and have much better sound than two 6X9's.

 

Of course this will cost more, but by using an array of 6" you can somewhat make up the lack of a subwoofer.

 

Since I don't autocross my ZXT, I rarely have to remove the sub box assembly - especially now that I have the Loncoln Town Car with its' big trunk...

[Guest Aguyandaredhead]

One word of caution.. When you start to add multiple drivers to a system it is very likely that you will experiance a phase issue between them. There are a few things to consider first. 1 the goal of the system first, Sound quality with more than enough volume or nothing more than a SPL vehicle that only excel's in low freq response. 2 budget. 3 how you wantg the system to look, show quality or shadetree mechanic style...

 

Lets talk about number 1 first.

Based on the acoustics of the Z the best course of action for a sound quality system will involve not only a fair amount of acoustical treatment as well as proper placement of the speakers. I have had great sucess with average quality stuff being installed in the correct manner in the past.

 

As for the treatment of the vehicle it's self, the body is very thin and transfers sound very well. There are 2 issues here first low freq cancelation the sound of the exhaust and the tires will produce a sound that will no matter what you do try and cancel the bass resopnse of your subwoofer or midbass drivers. To reduce this effect as much as possible you need to eliminate the transfer of these sounds into the drivers compartment. Dynamate and the likes are a good start but will have a greater effect on the 2nd issue we will discuss next but it will help a small amount. Unfortunatly the freq's below 200Hz are very long in their nature, meaning that a thin layer will do nothing more than stop the body of the car where it is applied to resonate at its own resonant freq ( read BUZZ here). Now What I am about to suggest I will not do in my own car for reasons that are not related to the Audio system. I feel that the addition of Jute pad to the floor pan area will just promote rust if you do have any moisture in the floor areas. As well as it just adds alot of weight. However it does a good job of eliminating 60-70% of what I would call road noise. When applied under the carpet on the entire floor pan front to back as well as inthe upper side areas in the rear of the car will quiet it down greatly. Once this has been accomplished you can move on to the business of the audio it's self.

 

First off buy as much power as you can, Not that crap at the local expo sale event. Good quality clean power, I won't mention any brand names here as to try and stay as neutral as possible. The first thing about power is that it is where all the dynamic's in the system will come from, speakers can not do it alone. Picture a 4cyl car going up a big hill and he needs to pass a big rig he is going for all it's worth already and has no chance to pass it now. Now picture a nice light Hybrid Z like my R33240z (rb25det powered) he is just cruisin no big deal and now needs to pass the truck lets just say power to spare... Now to put this in audio terms, You have a little over 100watts to the entire system and you are listening to some of your fav (fill this in with your favorite music type) and it's playing at a moderate level and then there is a increase in dynamics like a rockin guitar solo or the crashing of cymbals in a classical piece or maybe even big boom from you hardest hip hop.. Guess what the thing just fell on it's face. No headroom for dynamics, Same system with a little power to spare had the headroom to get the job done.

 

Ok you now have a good quality amp with enough power to get you by lets talk about the source next. I will second the opinion of getting a MP3 deck but keep in mind most MP3's are compressed a true cd in wave form will sound much better. But you can't store 100+ songs on one CD. Stick with any of the major brands and you should be OK, just don't buy the cheapest one you can find. Try looking for a good deal on a used one, you can usually find a higher end head unit for less money if you have a buddy who forgot he had to pay rent before he bought that brand X with all the bells and whistle's last week and needs the money like now..

 

Ok on to the business end, speakers and sub's. I'll just say it now and I am sure I will ruffle many feathers. You must use a Sub.. There I said it, it will make all the diffrence in the end. Ok for the front stage I must say separates if you can swing the cost. When you start to divide the freq's the speakers have to play they become more efficent. The crossover design also makes a big diff as wheter or not it is 6-12-18 or 24db. The higher the number the better but don't expect to see the higher ones in most line's as it costs bucks to produce them. The front stage for a Z I would say should atleast consist of a 6.5 separate setup in the kick panel area, stay away from the door. The reason I say that is, one nobody who buys the car later in it's life wants doors that are all cut up and two and more importantly there is the function of equal path lengths. A example would be to say sit in the drivers seat with a tape measure and hold it infront of your nose. Extend it to the drivers door where you thought you wanted the speaker note the distance, now do the same to the pass side door from your nose to the pass side door note the distance. Now find the diffrence between the 2. Ok now sit in the drivers seat and measure from your nose to the drivers side kick panel and note the distance and then do the same to the pass side kick panel. You will find the distance that is the diffrence is less between the 2 kick pannels than it is between the doors. Given this the sound from the speakers will arrive at your ears closer to the same time. This will enable you to hear a more accurate front stage meaning that the instruments are placed on your dash where they should be as well as maybe seem to come from farther even outside the car by the mirrors. More width to the stage means more separation.

 

Jeez where am I now i feel like I am ramblin on. So I guess we need to touch base on Sub's which most of the young crowd will express the most intrest in. Now bigger is not always better here ( regardless of what your girlfriend or wife may tell you) as the interior volume of the car as in size may be too small for a large driver (sub). What happens is when that hellatious bass note rumbles out of a 12 or 15" sub in our cars it matures out over the front bumper which does the person in the car no good. Sure you can hear it from miles away but who is the sound really for you or your buddy who lives next door. In short the length of the wave is way too long for our short interior. So with this being true I personally think something along the line's of a 8" or 10" sub is much more appropriate. The reason someone in an earlier post thought the sub was too much is the hatch area acts like a horn and loads the sub so yes you can get away with a smaller sub and have the same output. Please either put the sub in a box of the correct interior volume made from MDF or a fiberglass enclosure, don't try and use the spare tire well as the back of the box. You will not like the twangy sound that it will produce as well as it flex's way too much and the volume changes as the sub plays so the control is limited.

 

As far as the look of the system this is where the bulk of the cost can come from. I prefer a nice pair of kicks made from fiberglass that are painted and colormatched to the car to one's covered in trunk liner or carpet. When it comes to the back of the car it really depends on your daily routine, do you haul a bunch of crap around or is it wide open most of the time. Also you must consider the weight addition of a fully trimmed hatch area in either fiberglass or leather trimmed trim panels. I have made more thanone hatch area that looked like it was one piece of carbon fiber and smooth as glass.

 

Well I am sure I have said enough to make you all want me to shut the hell up, I hope it was somewhat informative but not too dry.. If I can help in any way just give me a shout..Sorry for any spelling errors as I typed this way too fast and it is getting late..

 

Jeff

[dot]

Hey Phantom:

You certainly have opened a can of worms. Stereo equipment has as many options as there are tastes of music.

My solution was a Sony CD head with a pyramid 600W power unit driving some pyramid 6X9s. MP3 was not available at the time.

The sound is merely adequate. Enough base to give you a headache and enough highs to make you’re ears bleed. Audiophile? NO.

The sound from the motor and road noise (in my car) make it imposable to enjoy hi end sound. I can do that at home. I would just as soon listen to the V12.