jeromio Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Okay, I have a personality flaw. I must try one last shot at this. Read this thread: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10173&highlight=camaro+turbo for some reality based commentary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Nice, a complete thread where NO ONE own the system in question. In some of MY links, there were track times and slips, even Dyno numbers. I loved your link tho.... obviously some talent and knowledge in there, when applied to higher efficiency, higher boost systems. Not one person there owned the system tho, or had seen it in a car. The best point they brought up was the turbo's proximity to the gas tank.... tho I imagine this is mitigated by the lower RPMs, lower temps, and lower pressure of the STS system. I still find it interesting that of all the people already using STS (including some fairly knowledgable types in their own right) I have been unable to find ANYONE unhappy with the product. I am certain that if I post some upcoming success stories, with Dyno sheets, time slips, ect.... the first reply will be how it could have been done faster at higher compression (and higher cost) by using what everyone else already has. Does your personality flaw allow for reading posts by existing owners, or are you restricted to just opining as to how impossible that system is? It just seems to me that some people are over-anxious to bash something they not only dont have, but obviously never will get. Doesnt seem to go with the general vibe of HybridZ all that well. I understand how some of what STS is doing flies in the face of convention, but this site kinda stands for doing that, and discouraging bashing, unless there is something concrete to show, like an owner telling us how bad his experience was. I found the darn thing interesting, and partially because it flew in the face of the very little I knew about turbos on car engines. I probably wouldnt have given it a second thought, but I talked to a guy that had it in his Tacoma.... and was thrilled with it. I had to jump online as soon as I got home, becauser it seemed wrong. All I have really seen since is happy owners, and non-owners who are either curious, or run the gamut between indifferent to hating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I second Jeromio on this - Buy it. Forget all that physics crap. Forget that the people pushing it on LS1TECH are dealers for STS. Forget that it's way too expensive. If you feel that it is the right system for your needs, what does it matter what anyone on HybridZ thinks? What are you looking for - support? justification? Most people here are knocking the kit because there are better ways of doing what it does. Different isn't always better. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I think it's cool. Definately "outside the box". So what if it's an expensive way to make a little more power? Follow this: One guy wastes $60,000 to buy an exotic car to run 12.5 seconds. Another guy spends tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of struggling hours to make a cheap, ugly, sedan with a "park bench wing", and a 1.5 liter motor run as fast as the $60,000 guy. A third guy builds a $5,000 Hybrid Z that rivals both of them. Who is right? ANSWER: The Hybrid Z guy of course Get my point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 tannji, I am not going to try and get into with you over this system. Let me just make a point about the logic of your arguments so far. It is not necessary for someone to own a system to see how flawed it is or that it is bad value for your money. For instance, if I see that a company is selling perpetual motion machines, no matter how good reviews they are getting, or how what incredible forum posts I see, I don't need to buy one to know it's BS, because I understand the laws that make perpetual motion machines impossible. If someone makes a discovery that changes our understanding of physics - I'm sure I won't just be hearing about it from an internet vendor. By the same token, saying that other people with the system are happy with the results is also not an argument that the results are good. There is no need to trust those people when you can look at the facts yourself - without wasting money first. If you want to buy it, go ahead. If you want some facts beyond what has been provided so far - check out the diy-turbo group on yahoo groups, or pick up some good books on the subject. Then see if you still think this system sounds like a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 It always amuses me when people try to argue against the laws of physics. They usually end up meeting with some kind of gruesome death while trying to prove their theory mind you, but up until that point it is quite amusing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 It always amuses me when people try to argue against the laws of physics. They usually end up meeting with some kind of gruesome death while trying to prove their theory mind you, but up until that point it is quite amusing to me. ROFLMAO!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Gruesome death on dyno while trying to flout the laws of physics..... Shaken shop owner said "Everyone was having fun right up until 3500 RPM, when the car suddenly maxed out at 168HP and 145 Ft/lbs of torque, and the owner suddenly collapsed with a fatal embolism". Investigators suspect the car's unproven and technically suspect turbo system unduly raised the erstwhile owner's expectations too high, in spite of cautionary advice from forums across the web. According to one bystander, the result was all but inevitable; "I told him he should have gone with the D1SC.... but he wanted to cut corners... It's a damn shame." (name withheld by request). http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Hey I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just saying it isn't efficient. I'd be interested in seeing those dyno graphs from an earlier rpm, say 2000rpm though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I think the same turbo placed up closer to the engine would creat much higher exhaust temps on the turbine and therefore spool it faster, much faster... and have a longer power band. The pressure drop everyone complains about across an intercooler... hell, when you've got 15 feet of pipe to fill, theres a pretty massive chamber you must pressurize before the engine sees any boost at all. Most intercoolers lose 1psi. Simple solution, turn the boost up 1psi. If you're only running 4.5psi or 6psi or whatever, then more boost is really easy to come by. All these comments about how its 'better' than a conventional setup are ignoring the fact that conventional setups work great. Stuff they call benefits seems pretty backwards to me. It does work, I don't doubt that at all. I still think its a stupid place to put a turbo, and I would never do it. The system could be so much more efficient. I have a question: Why should you put the turbo back there? What benefit does this have, aside from hiding the turbo and cleaning up the engine bay? (which I don't see as a benefit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Most intercoolers lose 1psi. Simple solution' date=' turn the boost up 1psi. [/quote'] I wonder why my I/C loses more like 2psi Maybe too small? It's made by Trust (Greddy) so I don't think it's like... a low quality issue or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 I do not believe IC's have a set number for PSI loss, it depends on the size of the IC, the design, the routing of the tubing, ect. I also didnt see where anyone ever said STS was better, or more efficient. I think that if your intake temps are not too high to begin with (on the STS system) not only do you not need a IC at low PSI, but adding an IC would add PSI drop and lag. It seems to me to be a bit contradictory to say that the STS will be losing PSI because of the "15 feet of tubing" and then say it should have an IC.... which would add more pressure drop and lag to what the STS supposedly already has. Now, if I were to go with that system, and use a larger turbo as well as trying for 15PSI or so... I would be using an IC. (truth be told, if my main objectives were faster scroll and 15PSI+, I would go with a conventional turbo system.) In the little I remember from my thermal dynamics and fluid flow studies in the navy, (Nuke Subs) heat is not the only factor, density of the medium and aperture of the scroll count for a lot too. I dont see anyone addressing or acknowledging this. With a denser media flow, you can push the scroll without having to have as much heat or pressure in a conventional setup. Some of our circulation systems in subs work in either high or low pressure systems... the variables being aperture size and density of the media, which is hugely affected by temp. As far as advantages, there are a couple that intrigue me: ease of installation, and lower operating temps. I have driven many miles in hot V8 Zs.... and that is one less heat source under my hood, that I am already looking at modding to remove heat. Also, as crazy as it sounds, I want some lag in my turbo, as long as it makes up for it with eventual HP and torque. My Z has an inherent limitation.... I want to drive it daily (weather permitting) and I want to do so without having to be constantly on the lookout for huge power at say 1900 RPMs.... and my GF wants to drive it occasionally as well. I think I can cure her of this with a couple of launches, but if I fail at that, I want it to be driveable for a noob, and still allow me to hit the boost control later. I read the posts by resellers of STS with a grain of salt, obviously. I still havent found any users who were dissatisfied. This says something to me. I am waiting for a guy with a D1SC-Camero who is swapping for a higher-end STS system. He is used to good perf and 630 HP. If HE has good things to say after installation, test drives, and dyno runs, I will be a little more sold. That install is expected sometime this month. On the positive side, I dont see any wild claims from the manufacturer, their customer support seems to be stellar, and the only people who seem to have problems with the system are people who dont own it, nor driven a car with it. I still cant get over a truck just shy of 6000 lbs getting a 3.5+ second improvement in the 1/4, and hitting 12.6 seconds. On an inefficient system, no less! That is good enough for me to watch and follow developements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Readin gmost of those threads gained me only one thing. It is a cheap and easy way to gain power. they stated that it worked with stock exhaust manifolds. not to mention plumbing in a modern engine bay with a v8. it may not be the most powerful, and it maybe laggy, but it does fill a niche very nicely. I am intrested in the guy doing the dsc swap and comparing the two dyno graphs. It's the only real performance data on those threads. But dyno's shouldn't show lag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinked_Chrome Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 the concept of filling 15ft of pipe is quit interesting. 5psi in 15ft of pipe, is roughly the same amount of air at 25psi in 3ft of pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 the concept of filling 15ft of pipe is quit interesting. 5psi in 15ft of pipe, is roughly the same amount of air at 25psi in 3ft of pipe. LOL.... sure, if temps are the same. But if you are running a much cooler intake, the charge is denser, and the person that bought a 5 PSI system is getting a decent boost. Someone looking for 25 PSI (in a V8, that is sick! lol) isnt going to be looking at this system to begin with. Apples to apples, people are doing some interesting things with 5 PSI. 5 PSI and 25 PSI isnt apples to apples. If you are looking for 420 to 500 HP that is mostly bolt-on, this is decent option. If you want 15 PSI+, you are looking at several thousands more in related mods, and a much more complicated install. Oh, and that 3 feet of pipe is going to have a large IC attached, so it is both more pipe and lower PSI. It is still higher PSI than the STS, but that is also more PSI than I want, and I dont think that there are too many here intending to go with a Mondo turboed LSI either. I saw several dyno sheets from STS installs, and while some looked to need some tuning, the owners descriptions of their first driving experience with this install matched what I was invisioning pretty well. Just enough lag to make it comfortable for daily driving, with a nice curve and fat enough band for me to live with. I cant even imagine using first gear or reverse with with high PSI in a LS1 Z, but I can with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Readin gmost of those threads gained me only one thing. It is a cheap and easy way to gain power. they stated that it worked with stock exhaust manifolds. not to mention plumbing in a modern engine bay with a v8. it may not be the most powerful, and it maybe laggy, but it does fill a niche very nicely. Well, you put it into words very well. I can totally see what you mean. It's a Niche market, and they've cornered it. On the daily driving issue: In my experience with large laggy turbos and small responsive turbos... small turbos are very easy to drive. Why? They're easily predictable, and therefore easily learned. If your turbo lags a bit, when it comes on its like a slingshot... all the while its winding up and then WHAM!! boost. This catches rookie drivers off guard, and causes them to put the car sideways down the street. (I did it in my first laggy turbo setup) Exhaust manifold design has shown that adding several inches can increase lag by a couple hundred RPM. This is through my own experience, and through various setups I've seen on the internet on several different engines. If such an impact can be made in a short distance, I fear to see the difference between 1 foot and 15 feet from the head. Granted, a V8 can push some exhaust pressure down low, but its the temp that spins the turbine. On the physics of the system, certainly, the turbine spinning depends on a few factors, but temp is the most important one. Temp is the vairiable that increases volume of the air, etc... I don't see them using any fancy new exhaust wheels to compensate for lower exhaust temps, I see common off-the-shelf parts in their turbos. I'm kinda playing the devils advocate here... regardless of my opinion, a Z with this setup would be cool. I'd like to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I dont mind devils advocate at all..... and the lack of rolling eyes or insults is nice too.... = ) However, the temp isnt as critical in this situation. Moving the turbo under the hood reduced its efficiency, because it was designed for high temp, low density exhaust. In that situation, temps are desirable. But temps dont spin the turbo, they produce the conditions to make the turbo spin more efficiently. (besides, we are still talking approx 1100+ degrees here, we still have heat, Houston, lol) If you move the turbo, you go with a different design in the blades and chamber. As for the turbo coming on like a slingshot, that is to some extent tuneable... and more true of high PSI setups than low PSI. I experienced it on a friends motorcycle. One second I was easing the bike thru first gear, the next I was trying to stand on the footpegs without bruising my chest on the gauges. I swore off turbo bikes right then. In a Z with the LS1, choosing the correct turbo and aperture would not only lower the powerband in RPMs, but keep it a little more predictable, and that is what owners are reporting. Part of the reason people have sucha mania about conserving heat in turbos near the manifold is that those turbos were designed with heat as part of the equation..... and since people cant usually afford to experiment with turbo setup as easily as they could carb jets, they learned to not screw with turbo location. In this setup, I will have the throttle to control the volume of air.... The V8 engine puts out a huge volume of exhaust.... the turbo is going to spin fine. I am far more interested or concerned about having a narrower powerband than whether or not I will have sufficient power. Regardless, I to think a Z with this would be both cool and fun. Like I really need much more HP than the LS1 already supplies..... lol Still, I can see some interesting highway runs, especially next to someone's new Vette or Viper toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Here is the comment by someone who just drove a LS1 F-body with STS: well unlike most turbo cars the huge power gains dont take as long to kick in, and the lag is much less than any turbo ive ridden in before, thats why i was so impressed with it. it pulls comparably hard to mine on top end but with the stock converter lacks the low end snatch off idle,however i never leave off idle but that is a easy fix with a converter and her's is a bit smoother ride given its a auto. i think with proper converter and suspension/tires it would be a fun race. and id much rather drive it around town than mine. Oh, here is that guys non-turbo car he is comparing the STS car too: '01 White M6 Ta 1st Place Thunder Shootout 2003 SS/M11.11 @122 w/1.48 60', 3475lbs cam only Spec stg.4, 242/248 TRex cam. 6point cage 28"drags on prostars 433rwhp/385rwtq cam only through 12 bolt w/4.56's and 28" slicks Suspension: Stock shocks,springs,swaybar. added all the bmr stuff. GOAL: 10.60 CAM ONLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I have 2 comments regarding this setup in a Z. 1. It looks goofy to me, not cool and I don't think its a good solution for the price!! 2. Where are you going to route the piping for the exhaust and intake under a Z? The only place I can think of is to run the exhuast down one side of the tunnel and the intake up the other side. This means that unless you shield the intake it will be heated by the exhaust pipe which effective reduces the efficiency even more. Running those 2 relatively large pipes in the tunnel will also make it a major pain to do any work on the tranny and/or drive shaft (u-joints anyone?). I also don't see where you'll place the turbo in the rear, there isn't room between the diff and the tank like it's mounted in the camaro to say nothing about the nightmare of routing the exhaust and intake tubing back there. Maybe remove the spare tire well and put it there? Another thing about the exhuast and intake routing, the intake will be forced to cross at least one side of the exhaust piping to get into the engine bay, another spot where heat will be transfered to the intake charge. I guess you could say I don't think it would be a good fit in a Z regardless of it's design merits or lack there of. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hey everyone, here is a thought. I have a 2004 Toy Tacoma V6 as a daily driver. If everyone pitched in I could test the STS on my truck....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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